High ph and fertilizer soil

[lovelomsak]

I have decided to become a gardener.I have to stay home all the time because I cathater 4 times a day. So have to start doing more at home.

I have a major problem. I did a soil test last year. The meter on the tester peaked for both PH and fertilizer.So I donot even know the levels. I have tried to grow a few things and gave up but now wish to get serious about it.

Most things will start but the roots usually rot of or burn off, not sure which.The lawn even died at the root.My lime tree thrives.I have had papaya trees constantly die at the root . Got one to grow to full height then one day went out and it had fell over the stalk of the tree had rotted right at ground level..My only coconut tree after three years has grown 3 new leaves. What is growing good is all my teak trees. But they donot require gardening.

So I googled what can I grow in soil like this and came up pretty well empty.So does any one know what I can grow here or how to change the soil so I can grow something.

I never knew there could be soil like this.

[IsaanAussie]

Root rotting is caused by over watering on poorly draining soil or by forms of pathogenic fungus. It appears in your case to be mostly the second issue and you would need to get the plants tested to determine what it is. I would suggest you try adding a lot of organic material to the soil, perhaps a small patch as a trial. It would also be worth introducing a lot of beneficial microbes to try to compete against the nasties.

If you do have a pathogen issue it is easily spread so you may wish to try amending the soil in an area where the problem appears less severe. Another option would be to introduce clean soil in raised beds or even wicking beds or planters set above the ground.

Do not try to compost any infected plants as you will only spread the infection.

[lovelomsak]

Root rotting is caused by over watering on poorly draining soil or by forms of pathogenic fungus. It appears in your case to be mostly the second issue and you would need to get the plants tested to determine what it is. I would suggest you try adding a lot of organic material to the soil, perhaps a small patch as a trial. It would also be worth introducing a lot of beneficial microbes to try to compete against the nasties.

If you do have a pathogen issue it is easily spread so you may wish to try amending the soil in an area where the problem appears less severe. Another option would be to introduce clean soil in raised beds or even wicking beds or planters set above the ground.

Do not try to compost any infected plants as you will only spread the infection.

Thanks for the help. i will be busy with google now deciphering what you said. I lack the fundamentals for what you are talking about. But I truely appreciate the help.

If I add organic material I cannot use what is in my yard right. It may be infected.I also do not know what are beneficial microbes.What would they come from?

[lovelomsak]

I should give some more insight into this soil. When we bought the property the yard was over run with chickens,before they had chickens they had pigs.We cleared the whole area and planted some fruit trees. All the trees died with in a month or 2. All this time not a weed in sight.So I decided to wait for weeds to grow so I would know something could grow there. It was more than a year before weeds started.I waited for the weeds to fill in some. Then planted more fruit trees,again they died.All except a lime tree and a coconut.The lime tree thrived. The coconut went into hibernation. and barely survived.I then planted an area with sod.It caught and was looking really good for about a year.Then it started to thin out like some one going bald.Every month the spaces between grass blades got bigger till some areas were just soil.Strange very strange.

Now have some lawn maintained. Roses,are doing well a mango tree has started to look like it might make it more than a few months. One plant that looks sort of like a cactus and gives large pink fruit is growing like a weed. I planted sweet potatoes last year had a great crop of leaves no potaoes, then everything died.Had 2 more papaya die about 1 year old.

I thought maybe the teak trees leaves that fell on the ground for years and broke down may have affected the soil is that possible?

If it does not improve soon I feel I will be forced to dig it up and replace it. Never have I seen any thing like this. I am not a great gardener,but i can water and weed which is all most gardens need. But this soil seems to needs a soil engineer figure out how to get it to work.

[cooked]

Root rotting is caused by over watering on poorly draining soil or by forms of pathogenic fungus. It appears in your case to be mostly the second issue and you would need to get the plants tested to determine what it is. I would suggest you try adding a lot of organic material to the soil, perhaps a small patch as a trial. It would also be worth introducing a lot of beneficial microbes to try to compete against the nasties.

If you do have a pathogen issue it is easily spread so you may wish to try amending the soil in an area where the problem appears less severe. Another option would be to introduce clean soil in raised beds or even wicking beds or planters set above the ground.

Do not try to compost any infected plants as you will only spread the infection.

Thanks for the help. i will be busy with google now deciphering what you said. I lack the fundamentals for what you are talking about. But I truely appreciate the help.

If I add organic material I cannot use what is in my yard right. It may be infected.I also do not know what are beneficial microbes.What would they come from?

Judging by my own experience here, a high pH value can be found in combination with heavy, clay soil, which turns to concrete in the dry season. Mixing in organic material is good in itself but most of this will have disappeared after a year or two. Carbonised rice husks do a great job of improving drainage but to change the pH you have to resort to mixing in one of the many products available for reducing pH. I myself was fortunate to have large quantities of builders' sand (low pH) laying around which I scattered around the garden gradually (so as not to change soil that was too heavy into soil that was too light). It works its way in by itself.

I now have great soil but I haven't got around the pathogen problem which I am still working on, wood vinegar doesn't help, I don't want to use toxic chemicals so I am looking at soil solarisation, which I have no experience of.I can't grow tomatoes or any other members of their family except Thai chilli.

[IsaanAussie]

Plant pathogens are an issue for most of us trying to grow "western" vegetables and other plants. Since most problems are fungal, and fungii populate explosively then form spores that can just sit and wait for the next set of favourable conditions, we are between a rock and a hard place to rid ourselves of them. I believe the answer lies in biological control. Easy enough to introduce a control organism but more difficult to maintain it. There are root dips and powders for seeds which inoculate seedlings and seeds, foliar sprays and soil drenches. Even brews that can be used in the compost to inoculate it and to kill off many pathogens. With more biofertilisers becoming available perhaps another answer is near.

After researching this issue for ages, I think the answer will require a combination of most of the above and a lot of persistence. I have a few things to try and would be very interested in any successful experiences the members have had.

[lovelomsak]

Root rotting is caused by over watering on poorly draining soil or by forms of pathogenic fungus. It appears in your case to be mostly the second issue and you would need to get the plants tested to determine what it is. I would suggest you try adding a lot of organic material to the soil, perhaps a small patch as a trial. It would also be worth introducing a lot of beneficial microbes to try to compete against the nasties.

If you do have a pathogen issue it is easily spread so you may wish to try amending the soil in an area where the problem appears less severe. Another option would be to introduce clean soil in raised beds or even wicking beds or planters set above the ground.

Do not try to compost any infected plants as you will only spread the infection.

Thanks for the help. i will be busy with google now deciphering what you said. I lack the fundamentals for what you are talking about. But I truely appreciate the help.

If I add organic material I cannot use what is in my yard right. It may be infected.I also do not know what are beneficial microbes.What would they come from?

Judging by my own experience here, a high pH value can be found in combination with heavy, clay soil, which turns to concrete in the dry season. Mixing in organic material is good in itself but most of this will have disappeared after a year or two. Carbonised rice husks do a great job of improving drainage but to change the pH you have to resort to mixing in one of the many products available for reducing pH. I myself was fortunate to have large quantities of builders' sand (low pH) laying around which I scattered around the garden gradually (so as not to change soil that was too heavy into soil that was too light). It works its way in by itself.

I now have great soil but I haven't got around the pathogen problem which I am still working on, wood vinegar doesn't help, I don't want to use toxic chemicals so I am looking at soil solarisation, which I have no experience of.I can't grow tomatoes or any other members of their family except Thai chilli.

I am the same as you with tomatoes.Even the thai one,they grow so far then simply die no tomatoes. I tried cantaloupe,they died.chili's grow ok .I will buy sand and spread it around. Does lime help in any way? Wifes friend said try lime. I would be happy to just have a garden that didnot always die.The only real good things in the yard are my lime tree and bananas. The bananas do well because all our grey water goes to them.and they thrive.But the bananas are separate from the rest of the garden also,by quite a distance.and they took a couple of years to get healthy.I will look upp soil solarization also. Thanks for that one.

[cooked]

If your wife thinks that lime (builders lime) is a good idea, try that. I believe that the idea is that the very fine clay platelets get bound together into larger particles, thus ameliorating drainage. However lime will do nothing to lower pH, probably the opposite. I have never tried this, but ferrous sulphate http://homeguides.sfgate.com/iron-sulfate-safe-home-gardens-91858.html will lower your ph and add to the capability of plants to absorb iron and manganese.Sand: around here, builder's sand is slightly acidic, you don't want calcareous sand. Calcareous sand when left in a heap goes very hard and so is unsuitable for children's sand pits. You can test by buying a toilet cleaner containing sulphuris acid (Vixol comes to mind) and pouring a little on your soil and on the sand. The soil willl bubble and froth if it is calcareous.

[xen]

If i could add some thoughts - If the area had pigs then it is probably compacted by the trotters - try breaking up the compaction to improve the oxygen / water exchange . This will also help greatly if there should be a risk of soil fungal infection as well as drainage . The top layer sounds like it is probably nearly all pig poo organic matter.

IA is probably the man to sound out for more info about this and his experiences.

The other thing is , did you do the pH tests ? The reason i ask is because they can be quite misleading depending on method used.The H of pH is for the measurement of Hydrogen atoms in the soil so if it clay or heavy in organic matter then the the number of hydrogen atoms will be higher then giving a more acidic reading in general. I know somebody will dispute this and give examples where it does not apply and that is good , but to understand pH (or potential of hydrogen) (measures the amount of hydrogen in H2O) then this explains why soil pH readings will be different on different days according to weather, and location . So it is good to test a few spots on different days to get an accurate reading. Even if you send it to a soil laboratory they will get you to do the same.

If you do have phytophthora which is a common root rot -google that for more info . Avocardo farmers seem to be having some success with using mollasses as a natural remedy and also if your drainage in the sub soil is good , using very thick mulch to prevent a lot of rain reaching the soil . Easier said than done though. Incorporate Sand as well in the soil as previously mentioned.

Hope that helps you and does not confuse you too much .

[IsaanAussie]

For those who don't mind a bit of hard graft, don't have money to burn, try this.

Most will be familiar with EM, rice husk biochar and bokashi. Make up pretty much any sort of a bokashi heap, get hold of local soil (your own or a truck load at this time of year), extend some EM. If you are up for a vegetable garden, get enough straw bales to contain your new raised bed.

The idea is to create your own "potting soil". My soil is clay and has plenty of minerals but no biology or organic matter. One thing it is good at is damping off vegetables and supplying pests and diseases.

The mix is simple. 20 parts soil, 1 part bokashi, 1 part biochar and enough extended EM to get the mixture to 30% moisture level. Mix it all up and cover with a tarp for a week, turn it thoroughly mixing in more ext-EM to maintain the moisture and wait another week. If you see white mould in the heap, you are good to go, fill your pots, seed trays and plant away. If you are going for the "bed", then dont bother with the weeds. Place your bales in the shape of the bed, put 3 to 4 inches of bokashi on the bottom and fill it up with your new soil. mulch with straw and water with ext-EM.

[lovelomsak]

Thank you Xen and IsannAussie, Really good advice sounds like you guys have learned a lot in your time.

I am going to try some of the things mentioned. I want you to know I appreciate the help.

[cooked]

Thank you Xen and IsannAussie, Really good advice sounds like you guys have learned a lot in your time.

I am going to try some of the things mentioned. I want you to know I appreciate the help.

Meaning that I'm a <deleted> of course.

[lovelomsak]

Thank you Xen and IsannAussie, Really good advice sounds like you guys have learned a lot in your time.

I am going to try some of the things mentioned. I want you to know I appreciate the help.

Meaning that I'm a <deleted> of course.

My apologies cooked. A little lazy on my part to name everyone.

Today I had exterminators come to kill all the ants in the yard. I am staring a clean up and will be adding sand. I did not like being bitten by the ants so was a must do.Will do that as required so I can work with out getting biten.

I will add sand,lime,for sure and rice husk biochar,and bokashi if I can find them.Pulling out all the stops. I do not have a clue what EM is sorry.

[cooked]

Thank you Xen and IsannAussie, Really good advice sounds like you guys have learned a lot in your time.

I am going to try some of the things mentioned. I want you to know I appreciate the help.

Meaning that I'm a <deleted> of course.

My apologies cooked. A little lazy on my part to name everyone.

Today I had exterminators come to kill all the ants in the yard. I am staring a clean up and will be adding sand. I did not like being bitten by the ants so was a must do.Will do that as required so I can work with out getting biten.

I will add sand,lime,for sure and rice husk biochar,and bokashi if I can find them.Pulling out all the stops. I do not have a clue what EM is sorry.

You can kill ants with Chaindrite cockroach spray. Let us know how nyou get on in a year or two.

Maybe I was having a bad hair day when I wrote that!

[kickstart]

I would agree with zen, compaction could well be a problem , can you get a tractor in to your garden ? not a big one a small one would do the job ,ask a local farmer with a something like a fertilizer drill for maize, the drill has tines on, and work the land with the tines ,idea is to brake the land up, and especially if they is a pan under there ,help drainage ,then the land can breath ,and the ,microbes in the soil can start to work . then do what other members have advised.

For information on EM look at past posts on TV.

[drtreelove]

"I have a major problem. I did a soil test last year. The meter on the tester peaked for both PH and fertilizer.So I do not even know the levels".

What do you mean by this? What kind of meter are you using to measure pH and fertilizer?

In my opinion, in spite of some good suggestions from experienced and respected members like Xen, IssanAussie and Cooked, it's all guess work until you do a good Mehlich 3 soil test. The pH will self correct if soil minerals are brought into balance. Guessing at corrective measures is fragmented, does not guarantee you will hit on the right solution, and may or may not get you positive results. See soilminerals.com

Comprehensive soil and water management will reduce nutrient deficiencies and plant susceptibility to pests and disease. Don't worry about possible existing pathogens in your soil or plant parts, unless it is clear to you that there may be specific disease involved. There is not much you can do about this anyway, identification of plant disease organisms, abiotic disorders and contributing factors for disease conditions, and be complicated and tissue testing for an unknown is extremely expensive. Concentrate on developing the best possible growing conditions and the rest will come into balance as best possible on a limited budget.

EM is an important component of soil management, because of beneficial biological activity that can be cultivated through the action of certain bacteria and fungi that colonize roots and protect against pathogenic fungi like Phytophthora spp. EMs also facilitate assimilation of plant nutrients from the soil and are an essential component of a healthy rhizosphere. But EM, effective micro-organisms, it's called in Thailand, (actively aerated compost tea is one way to obtain these EM's), is a sensitive process and the material must be handled, stored and applied properly in order to preserve the vitality of the living micro-organisms in the solution. It would be easy to obtain a product label as EM, but not so easy to find a true product that preserves the biology. I use compost tea within 6 hours of taking it from the brewing tub, because after that amount of time it begins to degrade. EM 'happens' in the soil, if you manage soil organic matter content, water and other factors. Compost tea innocculations can help to introduce microorganisms that may be missing in the soil flora profile, but CT alone will not guarantee maintenance of soil biological activity unless other factors of soil health are managed. There are dry forms of EM products that utilize spores of beneficial organisms, but I would recommend scrutinizing the quality. Don't expect that any product labeled as EM will be biologically active. And don't expect that this type of product alone will bring you positive results; there is much more to soil management than OM and EM.

[drtreelove]

FYI. Here is a link to the pinned topic on EM in the organic sub-forum.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/215246-effective-micro-organisms/

EM is a human best attempt to cultivate the naturally occurring soil microorganisms that are an integral part of healthy soil, root zones and plant life. These organisms are present in native soils, as they have evolved in healthy eco-systems like a rain forest, grassland, oak or teak woodland, or arid desert. They can be missing to some degree or another in sub-soil fill dirt that is used to raise soil-grade in moo-bans and other building projects in Thailand and elsewhere. Soil biology can also be negatively affected by poor farming practices, like the use of harsh chemical, high salt index fertilizers and pesticides. Adding an EM product is a shotgun approach and somewhat guesswork, unless you have a microscope and can identify the presence or absence of specific organisms. EM may be of help, if applied as an inoculant to otherwise complete soil. Without good conditions, with adequate soil organic matter and moisture, the organisms cannot survive for long. Beware that it is possible the product has also cultivated coliform bacteria or other harmfuls from inadequately composted animal manures.

See the movie: Symphony of the Soil

https://www.ovguide.com/symphony-of-the-soil-9202a8c04000641f80000000309884c3

And: http://www.modernwellnessguide.com/news/where-food-begins-2015-is-international-year-of-soils

https://www.ovguide.com/symphony-of-the-soil-9202a8c04000641f80000000309884c3

It is significant to me that this discussion on EM is occurring in the "conventional" farming side of this artificially divided forum. And although it may not mark the "end of conventional chemical farming" in Thailand, it is sure happening here in the US. Organic growing is becoming mainstream, and for good reasons. Sales of organic products in the US now total over $35 billion annually. And this issue of soil biology and high nutrient density is at the core of the difference in approach.

[IsaanAussie]

I am a devote EM proponent. It has worked for me, I have used compost, worm casts and farm organic "wastes" to increase the productivity of our small farm. To me, it is a matter of achieving what you can given available resources, very limited cash and with middle age restrictions on effort. Whilst I watch the global progress toward organic methods being adopted with great pleasure, I have to temper my own ambitions with a constant reality check. I am not getting any younger, and I sure aint getting any richer, but I am impatient and want results quickly. I figure other members may feel the same.

[lovelomsak]

So much to learn.I will be kept busy. I want to thank all who gave advice here I will keep coming back here and read every thing as I try things and I am sure now that I can get good results. Thanks again for all the help.