Looking for insights in Phuket estate developments Koh Kaew area (Sansiri, Land&Houses, etc)

[Bob12345]

The wife and I are looking into buying a new house in a brand-new estate development (moo-baan) project around the Bypass road / Thepkrasattri rd intersection (where they just started the new underpass).

So far we have visited the sales offices of the following projects for a look at model homes, get indications of the price, and see the maps of the developments:

• Inizio Koh Kaew Phuket
• 88 Koh Kaew Phuket
• Sansiri Habitia Koh Kaew
• Sansiri Burasiri Koh Kaew
• Sansiri ..... Koh Kaew (the one they just started building right next to Burasiri)
• Supalai Lagoon

I am now looking for some insights into these places. Most of these projects are already partly developed and sold so maybe someone here bought a house in one of these places already? Or maybe you are looking into buying in one of these places, in which case I would like to hear your thoughts on what is on offer. So questions like how quick do these properties sell, what kind of problems can I expect when I buy a house there, is it positive or negative when half the park is still for sale or not developed, the general quality of life in these places, possibilities for discounts, yearly price increases, etc.

Any insights will help me a lot.

p.s. I am not looking for general advice like how real estate is overpriced in Thailand / Phuket, how risky it is as visa regulations can change every day, how it is better to rent in another part of town, how I should wait for a Russian to have a fire-sale where they offer a 10m villa for 3m, etc.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

How do properties from these developers look after 10 years?

I think this is why you won't receive any reply here as most foreigners build their own house.

[Bob12345]

How do properties from these developers look after 10 years?

This is one thing I am also curious about.

We visited one project that sold its first houses over 2 years ago but since they build in stages the most recently build houses are still available.

The farther away from the entrance are the newest houses and this all looks perfect; exactly like the brochure with lots of green.

But closer to the entrance you see that lots of people have "modified" their homes. So all houses are in the same style, but some people changed their gate into a "Chinese-type" gate, and they painted part of the house in red and black. And many home-owners have extended their kitchen all the way up to the wall of their property as they value living space and cannot care less about the green around their place. If someone wants to build a roof over their car park in the same style it doesn't stick out, but when you start changing the colors of your house and try to maximize your living area it quickly becomes like every other 50-year old moobaan in Thailand where every little space is filled up completely instead the free-standing houses with nice green lawns. And mind you, these houses start at 6m and run up to about 15m (the buyers are not poor people who need to cram in their grandparents and therefore need more space).

So this is one of my concerns.

I asked about it to the sales agent and she replied that officially people need government permission to make any changes. But as this is Thailand, nobody follows the rules.

The thing is that when your neighbor builds out his kitchen they will be right up to your property, and if you live next to a house looking like an ugly chinese temple your property value will decline as well.

Normally there is a "home-owners association" in the west, but not in Thailand.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Bob12345

[stuarty]

Well then Bob - it seems you have already got all of the insight you need. You can see they way these estates are heading.

[sunnyjim5]

You may not like to hear this but just for the record I and many others would never consider buying a property in one of these "developments".

I suggest you tour some of the older developments to understand why.

There are of course some very much more expensive options which, perhaps, will be maintained and cared for.

[Bob12345]

Well then Bob - it seems you have already got all of the insight you need. You can see they way these estates are heading.

Sure, but I would also not expect all 150 home owners not making any modifications to their house in the coming 50 years.

So while it becomes less of a nice place when everybody tries to maximize their living area (and not everybody does this), it can still be good enough to live long term.

Its the same as the inside of those model houses. It all looks perfect but even if you buy it with all furniture it becomes ugly within a few days because you put your own stuff in there (they have 3 shirts hanging in a closet, which looks great, but if you hang your own shirts in there, all 50, it will look uglier). That does not mean you should never buy a fully furnished house, it just means you need to realize it wont look like that once you move in.

It does make me realize that one property development we liked a lot might be more susceptible to modifications like this because it had a rather large green area at the front of the house while the inside was not too big.

[Bob12345]

You may not like to hear this but just for the record I and many others would never consider buying a property in one of these "developments".

I suggest you tour some of the older developments to understand why.

There are of course some very much more expensive options which, perhaps, will be maintained and cared for.

So you are saying there is a lack of maintenance and upkeep?

Do you mean maintenance of common areas (parks, roads, fitness, swimming pool, green areas, garbage management, security) or the maintenance of the individual properties (people not mowing their lawn, etc)?

As said in the opening post, I am not looking for general advice ("i would never consider buying it" / "go look at other place and understand why") but if you have specifics then I am all ears (maintenance fees keep going up and guard does not check if people actually live there, etc).

Edited March 18, 2016 by Bob12345

[eisfeld]

I live (rent) in a secure estate like that. A bit lower level as houses go for 3M but I've also seen other estates that are more in the mentioned price range (and above) like the Land and House or Miracle Lakeview in Chalong.

This stuff you described, people illegally extending their homes without any sense for quality and looks, some people running companies out of these homes etc happens everywhere after some time.

Around the area that you mentioned, these companies are building literally hundreds of clone homes all the way up to the british international school.

My biggest gripe with them is the lack if green areas and the land for each of these houses is just too small. When gardens are not big enough to really enjoy, people see no value in them and rather extend kitchen/bath/garage.

You don't have any proper way to prevent this as most residents don't care and you stand out as the annoying falang who complains about everything. Add to that also more and more people over time flat out refusing to pay the common maintenance fee for rubbish disposal, green area maintenance, security...

Basically you are buying something that is guaranteed to go down in quality. These homes wont appreciate in value.

Think about it. If in every of these estates a huge percentage of homes are for sale/rent after several years and they still build more and more... what will the consequence be?

The more expensive/upscale the estate, the less likely you see these problems. Go for a 30M home in Laguna and it's gonna stay more or less the same over time.

[KarenBravo]

There are some well run estates. Anuphas Golfville comes to mind, but, it's in Kathu.

[Bob12345]

I live (rent) in a secure estate like that. A bit lower level as houses go for 3M but I've also seen other estates that are more in the mentioned price range (and above) like the Land and House or Miracle Lakeview in Chalong.

This stuff you described, people illegally extending their homes without any sense for quality and looks, some people running companies out of these homes etc happens everywhere after some time.

Around the area that you mentioned, these companies are building literally hundreds of clone homes all the way up to the british international school.

My biggest gripe with them is the lack if green areas and the land for each of these houses is just too small. When gardens are not big enough to really enjoy, people see no value in them and rather extend kitchen/bath/garage.

You don't have any proper way to prevent this as most residents don't care and you stand out as the annoying falang who complains about everything. Add to that also more and more people over time flat out refusing to pay the common maintenance fee for rubbish disposal, green area maintenance, security...

Basically you are buying something that is guaranteed to go down in quality. These homes wont appreciate in value.

Think about it. If in every of these estates a huge percentage of homes are for sale/rent after several years and they still build more and more... what will the consequence be?

The more expensive/upscale the estate, the less likely you see these problems. Go for a 30M home in Laguna and it's gonna stay more or less the same over time.

Great insights, thanks a lot. This is exactly the kind of response i was hoping for when i opened this thread.

My wife keeps pointing out that the prices increase every year, but I agree with what you say that the value will actually decline over time.

One of the parks we visited last week we already had been to before. And when you get information there they show you a nice map of the estate with all the houses that are still available and which ones are sold. I normally take a picture of that map to have a better look later and when i compared the picture I took last week with the one I had made 3 months ago I noticed they have sold (preliminary sold, if the buyers get the bank loan which maybe has a 50/50 shot) only 2 houses in the last quarter. So that comes to 8 houses per year, while there are still about 50 houses available. To me that means that they wont sell out for another 6 years, meaning that in the mean time nobody can sell their house there for what they bought it for as most people would prefer a brand new house over a second-hand one. If you do want to sell within 6 years, you will probably need to swallow a good loss.

And to make it worse, next door (literally next door) they just started constructing a new park with 150 houses. And even if sales go well for this new park, which might result in more demand for houses in your park, the developer can decide to start a new estate with another 100-500 houses.

And I agree with you on the green area part. The houses further down the estate lack green space which will be worse when everybody starts modifying their own house. Exception will be the houses located in the center who look out over the swimming pool, club house, and park. Those people have an open view from their house and all the facilities only 10 meters away from their front door. And with a great view you probably care less what the owners of the house right behind you are doing with extending their house.

The refusal to pay maintenance fees is something I saw before in a condo. There they had a huge list in the elevator with all the apartments that were behind paying the fees. Sort of name and shame. But if the people don't care about it anymore, there is little to be done to get their fees. And the longer the list, the more people start to realize that you can easily skip paying the fees yourself. Once a development starts declining it will be hard to keep maintenance up or improve it over time. I think it will be less likely to happen in the 5-10m price range developments, but you never know.

Thanks again for your great insights, much appreciated!

[The Big Mango]

You mention "overlooking the pool and clubhouse".

There are many examples that these particular parts of developments never happen.

Two off the top of my head would be Phanson and also Naramid both developments in the same general area you are looking at.

Edited March 19, 2016 by The Big Mango

[phuketandsee]

Why worry about 10 years from now? Thailand will have gone tits-up long before then.

[stuartsmithson]

If common area fees apply, checkup if ALL residents are paying up.

The small estate I live on, is 70% farang owned and 30% Thai owned properties.

The Thais won't pay CAF's and a farang only wants to pay for rubbish collection.

The remaining owners have to pickup the share of the non-payers.

[Bob12345]

If common area fees apply, checkup if ALL residents are paying up.

The small estate I live on, is 70% farang owned and 30% Thai owned properties.

The Thais won't pay CAF's and a farang only wants to pay for rubbish collection.

The remaining owners have to pickup the share of the non-payers.

It might sound like a stupid question (or a normal question from a Western perspective), but aren't these fees put down contractually?

I mean, when you buy your house you sign a contract that you agree you have xx square meters of property and therefore pay xx times a certain amount per month.

If someone doesn't pay, you give him some warning and eventually take him to court.

[DrDave]

It might sound like a stupid question (or a normal question from a Western perspective), but aren't these fees put down contractually?

I mean, when you buy your house you sign a contract that you agree you have xx square meters of property and therefore pay xx times a certain amount per month.

If someone doesn't pay, you give him some warning and eventually take him to court.

Even if included in a contract, CAM fees can be difficult to collect.

In a condo project, by law, non-payers can be subject to having their water and/or electric service cut off. Not so in a housing development. It's true that non-payers could be brought to court, but this is a very expensive and time consuming process for the sake of collecting what is probably a few hundred dollars/euros/pounds.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

It might sound like a stupid question (or a normal question from a Western perspective), but aren't these fees put down contractually?

I mean, when you buy your house you sign a contract that you agree you have xx square meters of property and therefore pay xx times a certain amount per month.

If someone doesn't pay, you give him some warning and eventually take him to court.

Even if included in a contract, CAM fees can be difficult to collect.

In a condo project, by law, non-payers can be subject to having their water and/or electric service cut off. Not so in a housing development. It's true that non-payers could be brought to court, but this is a very expensive and time consuming process for the sake of collecting what is probably a few hundred dollars/euros/pounds.

Wow. Ridiculous.

Only in Thailand.

Some real estate "investment "

[NamKangMan]

How do properties from these developers look after 10 years?

I think this is why you won't receive any reply here as most foreigners build their own house.

"How do properties from these developers look after 10 years?" - how will Phuket look in 10 years????

[LivinginKata]

How do properties from these developers look after 10 years?

I think this is why you won't receive any reply here as most foreigners build their own house.

"How do properties from these developers look after 10 years?" - how will Phuket look in 10 years????

Phuket will look 'more developed' maybe even a proper public transport system but doubtful.

But seriously I've been here for almost 20 years, for sure many more buildings, not enough infrastructure for support these buildings. I don't expect much to change in next 10 years.

Some of these 10+ year housing projects still look pretty good ....

[NamKangMan]

How do properties from these developers look after 10 years?

I think this is why you won't receive any reply here as most foreigners build their own house.

"How do properties from these developers look after 10 years?" - how will Phuket look in 10 years????

Phuket will look 'more developed' maybe even a proper public transport system but doubtful.

But seriously I've been here for almost 20 years, for sure many more buildings, not enough infrastructure for support these buildings. I don't expect much to change in next 10 years.

Some of these 10+ year housing projects still look pretty good ....

My point being, the building may look ok in 10 years time, but what about everything outside your front door?

You've been here 20 years, but look at the rapid change, and it can be argued, rapid decline, over just the last 2 to 3 years.

Phuket may be an undesirable place to live in 10 years time.

No matter how nice your house is, you still may find yourself living in a slum.

[LivinginKata]

My point being, the building may look ok in 10 years time, but what about everything outside your front door?

You've been here 20 years, but look at the rapid change, and it can be argued, rapid decline, over just the last 2 to 3 years.

Phuket may be an undesirable place to live in 10 years time.

No matter how nice your house is, you still may find yourself living in a slum.

I'll take your bait NKM and ask the mods to allow an off topic post ...

I remember 20 years ago. No ADSL internet (was dial up if have phone line), no cable TV (we had a 2m dish), no Lotus and BigC, little chice when buying TV/fridge/wash machine or furniture.

We had to commision a cabinet maker to make our bed furniture and fitted kitchen.

In so many ways so much more convenient to live here than 20 years ago. My biggest problem is infrasture - public water/electric supply/roads/public transport ..

[NamKangMan]

My point being, the building may look ok in 10 years time, but what about everything outside your front door?

You've been here 20 years, but look at the rapid change, and it can be argued, rapid decline, over just the last 2 to 3 years.

Phuket may be an undesirable place to live in 10 years time.

No matter how nice your house is, you still may find yourself living in a slum.

I'll take your bait NKM and ask the mods to allow an off topic post ...

I remember 20 years ago. No ADSL internet (was dial up if have phone line), no cable TV (we had a 2m dish), no Lotus and BigC, little chice when buying TV/fridge/wash machine or furniture.

We had to commision a cabinet maker to make our bed furniture and fitted kitchen.

In so many ways so much more convenient to live here than 20 years ago. My biggest problem is infrasture - public water/electric supply/roads/public transport ..

I'm not "baiting" LIK, and I think your post is on topic, not off topic.

I did ask you to comment on the rapid change, and possible decline, over the last 2 to 3 years, not compare product availability on Phuket in 1996, to 2016.

"My biggest problem is infrasture - public water/electric supply/roads/public transport .." - and this is my point.

There is no point having a quality construction, with a nice kitchen and beautiful tiles in the bathroom, if all around the property is in decay, and I don't mean just the neighbor's houses.

Critical infrastructure is failing on Phuket, and no one in authority wants to put the funding in out of their budget to upgrade it. They are too busy siphoning off funds into their own pockets, and I can only see the corruption getting worse, not better. Then, you have an essential service, transport, directly controlled by criminals.

Beach water quality, air pollution, noise pollution, traffic, poor roads. litter everywhere, blackouts, trucking in water, lack of parking spaces, ever increasing medical and general cost of living prices, changing demographic of tourists etc etc etc etc - what will these be like on Phuket in 10 years time?

The OP asked for "insights into Phuket estate developments." Property is all about "location location location." I would be more concerned about the living standards on Phuket, and the environment, in 10 years time, rather than whether I have a leaking roof, for example.

When discussing property, "insight" must look past the property itself, which can be repaired, renovated, or even bulldozed and replaced.

Calling a place home goes beyond the four walls you live in.

[Bob12345]

I'm not "baiting" LIK, and I think your post is on topic, not off topic.

I did ask you to comment on the rapid change, and possible decline, over the last 2 to 3 years, not compare product availability on Phuket in 1996, to 2016.

[...]

The OP asked for "insights into Phuket estate developments." Property is all about "location location location." I would be more concerned about the living standards on Phuket, and the environment, in 10 years time, rather than whether I have a leaking roof, for example.

When discussing property, "insight" must look past the property itself, which can be repaired, renovated, or even bulldozed and replaced.

Calling a place home goes beyond the four walls you live in.

The question is specifically about real estate development in Phuket in a certain area. I explicitly said I was not interested in general things like "Phuket is going down the drain" as that applies to the real estate I am looking at as well as real estate anywhere else on the island. Of course I would prefer a huge house near Central Park in NY, but that would make a long commute every day to work which is in Phuket.

I do agree with you about the importance of location. But what you mention is not specific enough to help me further. If you compared the Koh Kaew area on Phuket with another area close by then it gets more specific and it becomes directly related to my question.

[seedy]

Off Topic posts Removed

[Gutenberg]

This 88 housing, it is definitely for the upper middle class Thai people. However, the houses look nice but overpriced due to no pool. But, it is like 200 meters away from the road with the heaviest traffic. The pollution must be awfully bad.

All Sansiri are mostly lower middle class Thais and Russians. The house material is really cheap. I think in 10-20 years it will be deserted or look like a ghetto. A good example of those Clone Housing can be found at the sides of the Old Airport Road. There is a big entry street to one of the housings, 10 years ago it must have been absolute middle class, now it looks like a ghetto.

For Phuket, sadly, you won't find good quality housing for under 10mb. Location also matters, Rawai, Bang Tao, Kathu, Laguna. For those houses, you could even expect to not drop in value.

I know of one arrogant guy who owns a TwoVilla villa with pool in Rawai which he bought for 5.5 mb around 10 years ago (yes, they were so cheap then). He made good money off from rentals. He is trying to sell it since 2-3 years, first it was at 15mb, then it dropped to 12mb, now it is around 11mb and still no buyer in sight. The neighbor house with same size is for sale at 9.5mb.

Even with that brand name + that location, it is ultra hard to find a buyer for a 10 year old second hand villa. It is just that the market is still over supplied and even in Rawai they still building new villas. Nowadays, those off plan villas sell for 12mb - 14mb. You get mostly good quality and good looking houses but the resale value will hardly increase because the never ending supply.

Best to buy the house, rent it for some years at 5%+ net profit and then live inside.

[macahoom]

I know of one arrogant guy who owns a TwoVilla villa with pool in Rawai which he bought for 5.5 mb around 10 years ago (yes, they were so cheap then).

I'm sorry, but either the arrogant guy is lying or you are mistaken.

Ten years ago you could not buy, new or second hand, any TwoVilla house for anything like 5.5 million.

The cheapest, smallest ones were at least 9 million going up to about 13-14 million for ones on bigger plots.

[Gutenberg]

I know of one arrogant guy who owns a TwoVilla villa with pool in Rawai which he bought for 5.5 mb around 10 years ago (yes, they were so cheap then).

I'm sorry, but either the arrogant guy is lying or you are mistaken.

Ten years ago you could not buy, new or second hand, any TwoVilla house for anything like 5.5 million.

The cheapest, smallest ones were at least 9 million going up to about 13-14 million for ones on bigger plots.

It was 5.5 million baht, I saw the contract laying in the house. 3-4 years later, the same villa category was going for 8-9 mb and now we are at 12-14mb.

[macahoom]

I know of one arrogant guy who owns a TwoVilla villa with pool in Rawai which he bought for 5.5 mb around 10 years ago (yes, they were so cheap then).

I'm sorry, but either the arrogant guy is lying or you are mistaken.

Ten years ago you could not buy, new or second hand, any TwoVilla house for anything like 5.5 million.

The cheapest, smallest ones were at least 9 million going up to about 13-14 million for ones on bigger plots.

It was 5.5 million baht, I saw the contract laying in the house. 3-4 years later, the same villa category was going for 8-9 mb and now we are at 12-14mb.

Codswallop and Poppycock.

I "owned" one of them. I know what they cost. I sold it nine years ago for 13.5 million.

[Gutenberg]

I know of one arrogant guy who owns a TwoVilla villa with pool in Rawai which he bought for 5.5 mb around 10 years ago (yes, they were so cheap then).

I'm sorry, but either the arrogant guy is lying or you are mistaken.

Ten years ago you could not buy, new or second hand, any TwoVilla house for anything like 5.5 million.

The cheapest, smallest ones were at least 9 million going up to about 13-14 million for ones on bigger plots.

It was 5.5 million baht, I saw the contract laying in the house. 3-4 years later, the same villa category was going for 8-9 mb and now we are at 12-14mb.

Codswallop and Poppycock.

I "owned" one of them. I know what they cost. I sold it nine years ago for 13.5 million.

Yeah, yeah. Seems all twovilla owners or pre-owners must have that special odd attitude.

Different houses, different options. You sold for 13,5 mb. Sure thing. That's why they need to sell it now for 10mb.

[steelepulse]

I happen to know the owner of two villas as he was my architect and after being an architect, he saw good money in being a developer. IIRC, when first starting, the smaller houses on 320-400 sqm of land were around 5.9.

Anyway back on topic, there are too many moo bans in the area the op was talking about, so don't expect any appreciation on these as people will always want to buy new vs second hand. I know, I just sold a house that was a rental for 12 years by the Heroines Monument and it takes knowing someone living there to get one of their relatives to buy second hand to be close to their family members.

[Bob12345]

This 88 housing, it is definitely for the upper middle class Thai people. However, the houses look nice but overpriced due to no pool. But, it is like 200 meters away from the road with the heaviest traffic. The pollution must be awfully bad.

All Sansiri are mostly lower middle class Thais and Russians. The house material is really cheap. I think in 10-20 years it will be deserted or look like a ghetto. A good example of those Clone Housing can be found at the sides of the Old Airport Road. There is a big entry street to one of the housings, 10 years ago it must have been absolute middle class, now it looks like a ghetto.

For Phuket, sadly, you won't find good quality housing for under 10mb. Location also matters, Rawai, Bang Tao, Kathu, Laguna. For those houses, you could even expect to not drop in value.

I know of one arrogant guy who owns a TwoVilla villa with pool in Rawai which he bought for 5.5 mb around 10 years ago (yes, they were so cheap then). He made good money off from rentals. He is trying to sell it since 2-3 years, first it was at 15mb, then it dropped to 12mb, now it is around 11mb and still no buyer in sight. The neighbor house with same size is for sale at 9.5mb.

Even with that brand name + that location, it is ultra hard to find a buyer for a 10 year old second hand villa. It is just that the market is still over supplied and even in Rawai they still building new villas. Nowadays, those off plan villas sell for 12mb - 14mb. You get mostly good quality and good looking houses but the resale value will hardly increase because the never ending supply.

Best to buy the house, rent it for some years at 5%+ net profit and then live inside.

Thank you for your comments, very insightful!

The location is indeed a bit of a problem for 88; especially the houses closest to the road will have noise and pollution problems.

At this moment they are constructing the clubhouse for that estate which will also have a big pool, but of course that is different from having a private pool.

And based of what I saw when visiting both 88 and Sansiri you might be right with the upper middle class and lower middle class comment. At the Sansiri properties people quickly start expanding their house to maximize their land (as they only value indoor areas and couldn't care less about how it all looks) while the houses at 88 seemed unchanged. That might change of course in due time, but so far we didn't see any adjustments made. Comparing the quality of the actually houses is very difficult for me, although it was obvious that 88 had some expensive features in their houses (Japanese toilet with remote, better quality floors, etc).