New Polish historical policy could silence Holocaust debates

[webfact]

New Polish historical policy could silence Holocaust debates
By VANESSA GERA

WARSAW, Poland (AP) — Poland's governing party is seeking to shape the country's future by controlling perceptions of the past.

The conservative Law and Justice party's strategy includes the use of museums, film, public television and other tools to promote certain episodes in Poland's history, like the anti-communist resistance after World War II. More controversial, though, are attempts to suppress discussion and research into painful topics, primarily Polish violence against Jews during the Nazi occupation.

Law and Justice, which since last year has wielded more power than any party in post-communist times, sees the moves as harnessing history in a mission to build a stronger nation state. President Andrzej Duda said the nation's new "historical policy offensive" aims to create a new generation of patriots and "to build up the country's position in the international space."

Critics see historical revisionism that will produce little beyond national self-righteousness and will prevent an honest reckoning with the country's wartime history — an extremely complex story that includes suffering and heroism of the highest order but also cases of murder and betrayal by Poles of defenseless Jews.

"They want to narrow our view of the past," said Pawel Spiewak, director of the Jewish Historical Institute in Warsaw. "They want to use the state apparatus to force their new view of political history, and this is very dangerous."

Duda waded deeply into controversy when his office announced earlier this year that it might strip a prominent Princeton Holocaust scholar, Jan Tomasz Gross, of a state honor that he received in 1996.

Polish nationalists have long demonized the Polish-American academic for a body of work focused on Polish violence against Jews during and after the war. The controversy surrounding him began with his 2000 book "Neighbors," about the 1941 massacre in the village of Jedwabne, where Polish villagers burned hundreds of Jews alive in a barn. Last year Gross caused a new outcry with a highly provocative claim that Poles killed more Jews than they killed Germans during the war, something that challenges the nation's self-image.

Duda's office said it was considering the move against Gross in reaction to 2,000 angry letters about him.

Prosecutors have also summoned Gross to appear next month in an investigation into whether he committed the crime of slandering Poland.

Just the threat to strip Gross of the honor brought letters of protest from prominent scholars. If strengthening Poland's international position is truly an aim, the tactic is backfiring, creating a widespread impression that authorities who are already facing criticism for undermining democratic institutions are also prepared to stifle free scholarly inquiry.

Gross, who was born in Poland to a Jewish father and a Christian mother and who left his homeland following the communist regime's notorious anti-Semitic campaign of 1968, is extremely critical of Poland's new direction. He said he has long been attacked by a segment of the population that is "right-wing, Catholic, nationalist and xenophobic."

"What is new to me is that this is a segment of the population that now has managed to put its representatives in all of the government offices," he said. "They use a foul and violent language to describe me as a traitor, as someone who hates Poland."

Poland's historical policies are wide-ranging, and also include efforts to undermine the legacy of Solidarity leader Lech Walesa, part of an effort to show that the entire political order that Walesa helped create is tainted. But it is the Holocaust policies that resonate most powerfully across the world, especially in Israel and North America.

With disputes raging, Duda opened a museum last week dedicated to the Ulma family — Poles slaughtered by the Nazis for sheltering Jews. He strongly condemned anti-Semitism and noted that the German murderers were helped by a Polish policeman in their hunt for the family. He called for remembering "the truth about heroism but also the sad truth about meanness."

Poland's Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich praised it as a "brave" speech and "one of the strongest condemnations, if not the strongest, of anti-Semitism by a Polish leader."

But others saw a cynical PR move. One critic, historian Jan Grabowski, noted that Duda, who has said in the past that Poles need not apologize for Jedwabne, claimed incorrectly that "hundreds of thousands of Poles" helped Jews during the war, a hugely exaggerated number that promotes a larger narrative of Polish heroism.

"Duda's speech is a huge step backwards from the historical truth and towards a more aggressive abuse of the memory of the Holocaust," said Grabowski, author of "Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland."

The Justice Ministry is also preparing a new law foreseeing prison terms for anyone who refers to Auschwitz or other German death camps in occupied Poland as "Polish."

That project comes in reaction to years of anger at foreigners referring to "Polish death camps" — language even used once by U.S. President Barack Obama. Poles find that wording extremely offensive since Poles were among the victims of the camps and had no role in running them.

"Enough of this lie," Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro said. "There must be accountability."

Michal Bilewicz, a Holocaust researcher at Warsaw University, said: "the new law aims to silence Polish historians as it is obvious that this law would not be effective in sentencing anyone outside of the country."

Spiewak, the director of the Jewish Historical Institute, says he now has to worry about whether researchers at his center might end up in prison.

The historical offensive comes amid a strong anti-migrant mood in Poland and as the ruling party is also centralizing its power in a way that undermines democratic institutions, most dramatically the independence of the constitutional court.

The trend resembles recent moves in Hungary, where historical revisionism has gone hand-in-hand with Prime Minister Viktor Orban's creation of what he calls an "illiberal state." Hungarian authorities have been rehabilitating wartime anti-Semites and portraying the country as the victim of German aggression when it in fact was allied with Hitler most of the war.

The high emotions surrounding Polish wartime behavior touch on what some call a Polish "obsession with innocence" — a conviction the nation is morally blameless thanks to its resistance and widespread suffering, with millions killed in the war.

Dariusz Stola, director of the POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews in Warsaw, said he believes many cling to this conviction of innocence because it is all they have.

"Poles lost the war. They lost a lot: family members, cities, libraries, churches, 20 percent of their territory and national independence. Little was left but their innocence," Stola said. "When you lose everything it's good to at least be innocent."

Still, he condemned the historical policies as "radical, unreflective and, of course, harmful."

"Poland was on the right side of this war, and Poland lost it to Hitler and then lost it to Stalin," Stola said. "We are not responsible for what happened 70 years ago but we are responsible for what we do with this past today. And I think the right thing to do is to talk about it."


-- (c) Associated Press 2016-03-23

[LALes]

Still plenty of Nazis and Nazi sympathizers to go around. We don't have enough problems with the Middle East nuts but now we gotta go back to the 1930s with these yo-yos.

[Cats4ever]

Reactionary and right wing. Regrettably governments that are too far from the middle, in either direction, are super sensitive to past misdemeanours by their ideological forefathers (foreparents??).

[alofthailand]

No - if you are referring to Holocaust - perhaps at fascist party meetings or in Iran or Saudi but generally the genocide by the the Germans against the Jews is a historical fact that can be discussed truthfully without fear by normal people in normal places. Your cheap misuse of the words hollow cost sound like an extreme right wing jibe to me. I have reported you to the moderator.

Edited April 22, 2016 by seedy
Quote hidden post

[Ondral]

Isnt it forbidden to tell the truth about the hollow cost?

No - if you are referring to Holocaust - perhaps at fascist party meetings or in Iran or Saudi but generally the genocide by the the Germans against the Jews is a historical fact that can be discussed truthfully without fear by normal people in normal places. Your cheap misuse of the words hollow cost sound like an extreme right wing jibe to me. I have reported you to the moderator.

Evidently, by reporting reggaebkk's comment to moderator and having it deleted you in truth think that it is forbidden to question the jewish holocaust. Good for you and the moderator. It is a good policy to censor anything disrespectful to jews given that they are God's chosen people. We goyim must know our place.

[keithathome]

The holocaust is UNQUESTIONABLE. It is factually (pictorially) documented and attested to by the perpetrators and the liberators and the victims.

[Trouble]

The whole thing is really a pointless exercise. The party that wants to narrow the historical perspective is really wasting their time and is only bringing up debate on the subject. To most young people today WWII is a thing of ancient history. To many young people today in America, as I am finding out as I get older, don't know much about the military action of US forces in Kosovo and the Balkans not so long ago and only have a hint about Vietnam and what that war was about, Korean War and WWII might as well not have existed as to these young people it is as old as WWI was for my generation, not that we did not learn about it. But in terms of general education, kids these days are just not interested in "ancient" history.

[connda]

Historical revisionism minus Freedom of speech = 1984

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

-- George Orwell, 1984

[Jingthing]

The holocaust is UNQUESTIONABLE. It is factually (pictorially) documented and attested to by the perpetrators and the liberators and the victims.

Of course but I think the revisionist history drive in Poland is about suppressing the truth about the enthusiastic actions of Poles in the process.

[bendejo]

If the Polish pope was still around he would have slapped these guys down.

[johna]

This is definitely a step in the wrong direction, but given that the Jewish lobby has made it a criminal offence in Poland, Germany, Austria and France to question their version of the Holocaust, the Law and Order party's position is understandable. It would be far better if this entire episode was thrown open to a full independent forensic examination.

WW2 best historian, David Irving who never denied the Holocaust was vilified for questioning parts of the Holocaust.

[SheungWan]

This is definitely a step in the wrong direction, but given that the Jewish lobby has made it a criminal offence in Poland, Germany, Austria and France to question their version of the Holocaust, the Law and Order party's position is understandable. It would be far better if this entire episode was thrown open to a full independent forensic examination.

WW2 best historian, David Irving who never denied the Holocaust was vilified for questioning parts of the Holocaust.

Obviously not the same David Irving jailed for holocaust denial. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefarright

Dog whistle politics for the neo-Nazi conspiracy theory team.

Edited March 24, 2016 by SheungWan

[Thorgal]

This is definitely a step in the wrong direction, but given that the Jewish lobby has made it a criminal offence in Poland, Germany, Austria and France to question their version of the Holocaust, the Law and Order party's position is understandable. It would be far better if this entire episode was thrown open to a full independent forensic examination.

WW2 best historian, David Irving who never denied the Holocaust was vilified for questioning parts of the Holocaust.

Obviously not the same David Irving jailed for holocaust denial. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefarright

Dog whistle politics for the neo-Nazi conspiracy theory team.

Should Netanyahu be arrested in Austria too ? Or in Germany, France, Belgium,....and Poland...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/netanyahu-under-fire-for-palestinian-grand-mufti-holocaust-claim

Edited March 24, 2016 by Thorgal

[SheungWan]

This is definitely a step in the wrong direction, but given that the Jewish lobby has made it a criminal offence in Poland, Germany, Austria and France to question their version of the Holocaust, the Law and Order party's position is understandable. It would be far better if this entire episode was thrown open to a full independent forensic examination.

WW2 best historian, David Irving who never denied the Holocaust was vilified for questioning parts of the Holocaust.

Obviously not the same David Irving jailed for holocaust denial. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefarright

Dog whistle politics for the neo-Nazi conspiracy theory team.

Should Netanyahu be arrested in Austria too ? Or in Germany, France, Belgium,....and Poland...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/netanyahu-under-fire-for-palestinian-grand-mufti-holocaust-claim

What we do know for sure is that those on this thread (and others) who would like to crouch in the shadows of David Irving cannot help themselves from coming out and showing their colours. Its a an old-school neo-Nazi man or mouse issue. Got to defend one's own. A red line for these guys. Mind you, it puts a big fat decisive stamp on their contributions on certain other forum threads as well.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies removed. Stick to the topic, please.

[johna]

This is definitely a step in the wrong direction, but given that the Jewish lobby has made it a criminal offence in Poland, Germany, Austria and France to question their version of the Holocaust, the Law and Order party's position is understandable. It would be far better if this entire episode was thrown open to a full independent forensic examination.

WW2 best historian, David Irving who never denied the Holocaust was vilified for questioning parts of the Holocaust.

Obviously not the same David Irving jailed for holocaust denial. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefarright

Dog whistle politics for the neo-Nazi conspiracy theory team.

Should Netanyahu be arrested in Austria too ? Or in Germany, France, Belgium,....and Poland...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/netanyahu-under-fire-for-palestinian-grand-mufti-holocaust-claim

What we do know for sure is that those on this thread (and others) who would like to crouch in the shadows of David Irving cannot help themselves from coming out and showing their colours. Its a an old-school neo-Nazi man or mouse issue. Got to defend one's own. A red line for these guys. Mind you, it puts a big fat decisive stamp on their contributions on certain other forum threads as well.

The Holocaust story has to be protected by laws that carry a 5 year jail sentence for anyone who asks a question about it. From 1945 to 1995 we were told that 5 million people were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz, It is now accepted that 1 million died in these alleged gas chambers. For any event with such a large loss of life there would be a massive forensic investigation. The holocaust industry has said there will be no investigation, what are they afraid off.

[SheungWan]

What we do know for sure is that those on this thread (and others) who would like to crouch in the shadows of David Irving cannot help themselves from coming out and showing their colours. Its a an old-school neo-Nazi man or mouse issue. Got to defend one's own. A red line for these guys. Mind you, it puts a big fat decisive stamp on their contributions on certain other forum threads as well.

The Holocaust story has to be protected by laws that carry a 5 year jail sentence for anyone who asks a question about it. From 1945 to 1995 we were told that 5 million people were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz, It is now accepted that 1 million died in these alleged gas chambers. For any event with such a large loss of life there would be a massive forensic investigation. The holocaust industry has said there will be no investigation, what are they afraid off.

And out of the woodwork they dutifully troop and in this example with the 'Holocaust story',..... 'It is now accepted....' nonsense. Straight out of the Neo-Nazi playbook.

[johna]

What we do know for sure is that those on this thread (and others) who would like to crouch in the shadows of David Irving cannot help themselves from coming out and showing their colours. Its a an old-school neo-Nazi man or mouse issue. Got to defend one's own. A red line for these guys. Mind you, it puts a big fat decisive stamp on their contributions on certain other forum threads as well.

The Holocaust story has to be protected by laws that carry a 5 year jail sentence for anyone who asks a question about it. From 1945 to 1995 we were told that 5 million people were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz, It is now accepted that 1 million died in these alleged gas chambers. For any event with such a large loss of life there would be a massive forensic investigation. The holocaust industry has said there will be no investigation, what are they afraid off.

And out of the woodwork they dutifully troop and in this example with the 'Holocaust story',..... 'It is now accepted....' nonsense. Straight out of the Neo-Nazi playbook.

Perhaps you could add a little substance to your reply, rather than just unfounded accusations, "It is now accepted that only 1 million died in these alleged gas chambers" thats perfectly true, would you like me to post extracts from Raul Hilberg's book "The Destruction of European Jewry" it clearly states 1 million died at Auschwitz. or Yitzhak Arad former director of the Yad Vashem museum who writes that 1,2 million Jews died at Auschwitz. I am certainly not hiding behind David Irving, where on earth do you get that idea?? and where on earth does "Straight out off the Nazi playbook" come from. Oh and shame on you, you forgot to call me an anti Semite.

You really need to address the content of my post rather than fall back on this old Nazi rubbish.

[hawker9000]

What we do know for sure is that those on this thread (and others) who would like to crouch in the shadows of David Irving cannot help themselves from coming out and showing their colours. Its a an old-school neo-Nazi man or mouse issue. Got to defend one's own. A red line for these guys. Mind you, it puts a big fat decisive stamp on their contributions on certain other forum threads as well.

The Holocaust story has to be protected by laws that carry a 5 year jail sentence for anyone who asks a question about it. From 1945 to 1995 we were told that 5 million people were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz, It is now accepted that 1 million died in these alleged gas chambers. For any event with such a large loss of life there would be a massive forensic investigation. The holocaust industry has said there will be no investigation, what are they afraid off.

And out of the woodwork they dutifully troop and in this example with the 'Holocaust story',..... 'It is now accepted....' nonsense. Straight out of the Neo-Nazi playbook.

Perhaps you could add a little substance to your reply, rather than just unfounded accusations, "It is now accepted that only 1 million died in these alleged gas chambers" thats perfectly true, would you like me to post extracts from Raul Hilberg's book "The Destruction of European Jewry" it clearly states 1 million died at Auschwitz. or Yitzhak Arad former director of the Yad Vashem museum who writes that 1,2 million Jews died at Auschwitz. I am certainly not hiding behind David Irving, where on earth do you get that idea?? and where on earth does "Straight out off the Nazi playbook" come from. Oh and shame on you, you forgot to call me an anti Semite.

You really need to address the content of my post rather than fall back on this old Nazi rubbish.

OK, so YOU see a need for revisionist debate about how many died in the gas chambers at Auschwitz vs all the other death camps? If we can just drive down the Auschwitz number, we can make it all better. And one fine day, it'll never have happened at all!

.

.

Amazing.

.

.

.

... or maybe not so, actually.

Referring to another post: you know the fact that so many in the younger generations are so uneducated about the Holocaust only accentuates the NEED for a decent education rather than justifies the tragic lack of it.

Time goes by, and you see people talking like this, and one begins to realize exactly how it happened. And I'm NOT one of those who thinks they should be silenced. Not by ANY means. On the contrary, they're a valuable lesson for the rest of us.

Edited March 29, 2016 by hawker9000

[johna]

In reference to hawker9000.

No we don't need a revisionist debate, I want an open investigation into the gas chamber part of the Holocaust story, something you are obviously afraid off, you have criminalized the asking of questions to silence all debate, what are you trying to hide??

Here is a link to Paul Rassinier's book Debunking the Genocide Myth, and the lies of Ulysses. Rassinier was a French Resistance fighter captured by the Gestapo and imprisoned in both Buchenwald and Dora. He tells a graphic story of how these camps were run, and its definitely not a story you want told.

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres/debunk.pdf

[Jingthing]

An editorial concerning this topic:

Gross is the canary in the coalmine. October 2015 saw the hard-right party Law and Justice (PiS) swept to power as the first party since the fall of communism to obtain as absolute majority in the Sejm, the lower house of parliament. Since November, Prime Minister Beata Szydło — under the influence of PiS leader Jarosław Kaczyński — has backed a program of regressive measures designed to restrain Polish democracy and concentrate authority in the party’s hands.

http://forward.com/opinion/339141/how-poland-is-targeting-holocaust-scholar-jan-t-gross-for-the-sin-of-rememb/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-4

[hawker9000]

In reference to hawker9000.

No we don't need a revisionist debate, I want an open investigation into the gas chamber part of the Holocaust story, something you are obviously afraid off, you have criminalized the asking of questions to silence all debate, what are you trying to hide??

Here is a link to Paul Rassinier's book Debunking the Genocide Myth, and the lies of Ulysses. Rassinier was a French Resistance fighter captured by the Gestapo and imprisoned in both Buchenwald and Dora. He tells a graphic story of how these camps were run, and its definitely not a story you want told.

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres/debunk.pdf

"you have criminalized the asking of questions to silence all debate, what are you trying to hide??"

Obviously, your reading skills need some work. Here's what I said (get one of the 2nd graders to help you...):

"And I'm NOT one of those who thinks they should be silenced. Not by ANY means. On the contrary, they're a valuable lesson for the rest of us."

What on earth would I be trying to hide? The world well knows what happened in the death camps.

[simple1]

In reference to hawker9000.

No we don't need a revisionist debate, I want an open investigation into the gas chamber part of the Holocaust story, something you are obviously afraid off, you have criminalized the asking of questions to silence all debate, what are you trying to hide??

Here is a link to Paul Rassinier's book Debunking the Genocide Myth, and the lies of Ulysses. Rassinier was a French Resistance fighter captured by the Gestapo and imprisoned in both Buchenwald and Dora. He tells a graphic story of how these camps were run, and its definitely not a story you want told.

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres/debunk.pdf

With regard to Paul Rassinier who appears to be one of first in the holocaust denial movement and continued to be over many years, can you factually deny the refutes & criticism of him at the URL below.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denialbrief.html

[hawker9000]

In reference to hawker9000.

No we don't need a revisionist debate, I want an open investigation into the gas chamber part of the Holocaust story, something you are obviously afraid off, you have criminalized the asking of questions to silence all debate, what are you trying to hide??

Here is a link to Paul Rassinier's book Debunking the Genocide Myth, and the lies of Ulysses. Rassinier was a French Resistance fighter captured by the Gestapo and imprisoned in both Buchenwald and Dora. He tells a graphic story of how these camps were run, and its definitely not a story you want told.

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres/debunk.pdf

With regard to Paul Rassinier who appears to be one of first in the holocaust denial movement and continued to be over many years, can you factually deny the refutes & criticism of him at the URL below.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denialbrief.html

Rassinier is a figure who's bound to appeal to the neo-Nazis, Jew-haters and Holocaust deniers. The article being linked to is incisive and not longwinded. All should read. It's a treatment of the Holocaust Denial movement and not just Rassinier, although he figures rather prominently.