Sometimes the "Thai Way" just Doesn't Work.....

[mikebell]

My mooban has 62 houses. Last year 61 people paid their fees on time. We have security 24/7 - a team of 5. Gardeners who come twice a month to do common areas; refuse collection/street-cleaning 3 times a week; a part-time office manager 3 mornings a week. Communal pool serviced 3 times a week. 1.5 million in the bank. Of course we are a Juristic Entity & the Committee consists of 4 farangs + 2 Thais.

[JaiLai]

If it were me, I would refuse to pay the fee "annually" (if possible) and pay it monthly, and if the work isnt done, it wont get paid.

I thought that not paying fees on a Moo Baan led to difficulties or fines at the land office when selling the property?

did n't think it was a simple as just 'stop paying' or no one would ever bother if there's no penalties?

[monkey4u]

A simple solution is to spray the unloved grass with Round Up

No one will have to cut it again

[DrTuner]

Go native, cover every patch of green with ceramic.

[MilesofSmiles]

I think your approach is correct. Polite but firm. I don't understand why some expats seem to think that, because they love Thailand, everything is acceptable?

Possibly because of the mistaken idea that unquestioning a** kissing will get you liked and respected

[casualbiker]

We live in a similar place. Over the years we have developed good relation with the gardeners. When we want something done around our house we asked them directly and when the job is finished we gave them a 200 Bahts tip for their help.

We also maintain good relation with the guards at the entrance of the village.

Whenever we need something everybody is happy to help.

Now you need to ask yourself a question : what is the most important to you, to be right or to have good relation with your neighbours ?

Are your gardeners and security guards your neighbours? I ask because that all you mentioned.. Where in the OP does it suggest that he hasn't got a good relationship with his neighbours? It seems that the moobaan management are not doing their job properly.. It's a simple thing in most countries to sort out.. You explain the problem and it gets sorted.. It seems that it's been explained multiple times and then either forgotten or disregarded.. If paying that much I also would be pissed off if the simple jobs were not done!

[bark]

20 K that is a lot of money , I pay 8500 , bins emptied twice a week, grass areas cut every fortnight ,trees trimed plus security and card entry system. plus street lighting There are 370 houses on our estate ,we have a well run committee.So it would seem u have a bit of a problem.

Not a lot of money. I pay 2,300/month, which equals 27,600/ year. It depends on the size of your lot. You must have a small lot. mine is 380

[casualbiker]

20 K that is a lot of money , I pay 8500 , bins emptied twice a week, grass areas cut every fortnight ,trees trimed plus security and card entry system. plus street lighting There are 370 houses on our estate ,we have a well run committee.So it would seem u have a bit of a problem.

Not a lot of money. I pay 2,300/month, which equals 27,600/ year. It depends on the size of your lot. You must have a small lot. mine is 380

. Or it could be you are being overcharged! Things like swimming pools and gyms (running aircon) put up the estate fees ALOT.

[gandalf12]

You do realise that you cutting the grass could be construed as work don't you? The job you are referring to would be restricted to Thais only so they could use that to give you real problems especially if someone made a video recording of you cutting the grass and you do not know if anyone did.

Would be worth while you learning a bit of diplomacy when getting issues with Thai's resolved

[johnny49r]

So the implication from the title of this article is that the "Thai Way" does work sometimes? Please elaborate. Curious minds want to know!

The underlying theme of the "Thai Way" is to do as little as possible. You might also ask how your HO fees are being used but I doubt anyone could tell you.

Amazing Thailand!

[mesterm]

I guess your wife is OK with you paying 20k.

But what if it were her paying 20k?

Well said.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

In the western world,you may have done the right thing,and i think you are correct in your action's.But we aint in the western world,my friend.When you went to see the manager and gave him i piece of your mind,you committed the cardinal sin.You made him lose face to all his staff.As the other OP said,retribution will be on his mind,somehow,someway.We all understand that Thai people are by their nature,not given to doing things immediately.He knows your house,and where you live.I would now invest in a small,noisy dog.I would also go to this guy and apologise to him(we know you don't mean it)it will boost his position among his staff.Also a bottle of cheap Whiskey would go a long way.I understand that your yearly payments are high,but Thai people still expect a little thank you for carrying out the work involved.Dont forget,to them,we are all millionaires.

I have learned,over here that giving a little extra on top goes a long way.Your wife will understand that these people get f##k all in wages and your little contribution will give you cudos,and will give your wife big face too.

Good luck.

[AlQaholic]

I do not of course know what expenses your mooban has, but I think you should try to find out what your annual fee is actually funding, try to ask the manager for the accounts. Maybe the cutting of grass is not even in the books since there may be other more important things to pay for such as security, managers salary, office staff, cleaning of roads, garbage collection electricity etc..?

Actually I have a related question maybe someone can answer. Unlike the Conominium act, there are as far as I know no legal act that regulates moobans, So in my understanding, even if you buy a house in the mooban, there is no way anyone can force you to pay for anything from a legal point of view. Even if you sign some agreement about it when you buy the house. And there is nothing the land office can do about it as I understand.

I understand, for those moobans for which committees and management has collapsed in this way, all services are taken over by the Amphur or Abata and services are charged individually to each house by the Abata, and security disappears of course, but what is security in Thailand anyway other than a gate opener?

I remember when I first moved here long ago we burned our garbage in a ditch across the dirt road in front of the house twice a week, nice little evening fire....

Edited April 4, 2016 by AlQaholic

[kannot]

Go native, cover every patch of green with ceramic.

or just simply go more native and throw any old rubbish there, building rubble is a favourite round here with a few old nappies and jam rags mixed in for good luck

[Familyonthemove]

I was looking at various Moobans last year when considering buying a house - all in a similar area - and I noticed that some were really well maintained, with nice garden areas and kids play equipment in the common areas, and others had begun to look like a ghetto with overgrown lawns, dumped rubbish and cars parked on the common areas. The key factor seemed to be if the developer was still trying to sell property on the site.

If the all plots were sold and the site office had closed, then maintenance seemed to have stopped.

The single exception I noticed was one where a friend of mine lived - and she said that there was a strong residents association (Thai and foreign, owners and renters) who meet each month with the management company to address any issues.

Perhaps the OP can start a residents group - as I'm sure others will share his concerns?

(My friend is Thai by the way ...... the idea that this is somehow a 'felang' issue is nonsense)

[buythisdashcam]

Proud of you ! This is how things should be managed, and if a wife was showing anger I would show her the hundreds of other wives waiting for me...

[sometimewoodworker]

There is a way that could work.

If the garden isn't maintained on schedule, pay for someone to do the maintenance, get a receipt then present that with the monthly fee having deduced the bill from the total.

They will possibly still insist you pay the full amount but politely pointing out that you have and maybe don't have the extra, could be a good negotiating position.

You never know but it could work.

[Deez]

This is a problem with most moobahns. And the reason is the moobahn committee, the ones who hold meaningless meetings every month pay themselves a monthly salary to do....nothing. If they don't have to pay someone to cut the grass there is more money left over for the salaries.

[Stevemercer]

I guess your wife is OK with you paying 20k.

But what if it were her paying 20k?

And, what CH says, pay monthly after the work is done.

And, no point getting angry, just don't pay.

After being here more than 10 years and married to her for the last 5 years, I honestly doubt her response would be any different if she were the one paying.

I recently started charging my wife 50% for some of these sort of charges (taking it out of her weekly 'salary') and it has made an amazing difference. Now that she has to pay some of the costs out of her 'own' money she is the biggest proponent in getting value for money or negotiating the price down or even to zero in many cases. If it is me paying she never wants to make a fuss, but that has all changed now.

Work out the average for all these costs and increase any allowances accordingly. But tell her she will have to pay half for a number of costs (e.g. utilities, care and wear, family etc.). Your wife will be happy to get an increase (e.g. typical short term thinking) and will fight tooth or nail against having to pay out the extras (and therefore negotiate a better price because it is in her direct interest). You certainly won't hear about any requests from the family for money if your wife believes she will have to pay half.

I use to get onto my wife about unnecessary use of the air conditioner, but she hardly uses it now that she has to pay half the electricity bill.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Stevemercer

[freebyrd]

I guess the true test will be whether they return in 2 weeks to keep it maintained. We'll see. Hopefully the wife will calm down soon but I don't think she will ever understand the point of my anger. Seems sometimes you have to confront people here if you want them to do something. The mei-pen-rai approach just doesn't work all the time.

Sounds like you're in for some Thai revenge.

It will be cowardly. Massively inconvenient. Comepletely behind your back by people that smile and greet you warmly. And may take years.

Beeing a bit money'd and foreign may save you from it.

Good luck khrap.

Na wai lang lork, behind the smile, curtains behind the eyes and other expressions come to mind. Hawkers in BKK smiling at tourists while insulting them in Thai. There are some nuggets among them, usually the poorest, otherwise they are communities that I wouldn't want to live in any longer and won't as I exited Thailand back in the day when I still believed all this mai pen rai, Khon Thi jai dee and other BS and eventually realised that's just what it was.

[KittenKong]

My condo building is exactly the same: vastly overstaffed and all the staff pulling some scam or another. The "Thai way" is generally to do as little work as possible whilst ensuring that as much money as possible ends up in your own pocket. As such I dont think much of it.

I would be inclined to sack all the Thai staff, employ a non-Thai manager, outsource everything, and dont hesitate to change providers if necessary.

[topt]

If it were me, I would refuse to pay the fee "annually" (if possible) and pay it monthly, and if the work isnt done, it wont get paid.

I thought that not paying fees on a Moo Baan led to difficulties or fines at the land office when selling the property?

did n't think it was a simple as just 'stop paying' or no one would ever bother if there's no penalties?

I do not of course know what expenses your mooban has, but I think you should try to find out what your annual fee is actually funding, try to ask the manager for the accounts. Maybe the cutting of grass is not even in the books since there may be other more important things to pay for such as security, managers salary, office staff, cleaning of roads, garbage collection electricity etc..?

Actually I have a related question maybe someone can answer. Unlike the Conominium act, there are as far as I know no legal act that regulates moobans, So in my understanding, even if you buy a house in the mooban, there is no way anyone can force you to pay for anything from a legal point of view. Even if you sign some agreement about it when you buy the house. And there is nothing the land office can do about it as I understand.

I understand, for those moobans for which committees and management has collapsed in this way, all services are taken over by the Amphur or Abata and services are charged individually to each house by the Abata, and security disappears of course, but what is security in Thailand anyway other than a gate opener?

I remember when I first moved here long ago we burned our garbage in a ditch across the dirt road in front of the house twice a week, nice little evening fire....

You can put a "lien" on the property at the land office using a lawyer which means it has to be cleared by paying the outstanding charges before the land office will change the title. The problem is what happens if an owner has no intention to sell and has not paid for more than 5 years - we have one of these in our village.

Not collecting their garbage just means they have to take it out of the village somewhere. We are looking at denying vehicular access but that raises a whole host of other issues.

[chilli42]

I guess the true test will be whether they return in 2 weeks to keep it maintained. We'll see. Hopefully the wife will calm down soon but I don't think she will ever understand the point of my anger. Seems sometimes you have to confront people here if you want them to do something. The mei-pen-rai approach just doesn't work all the time.

Sounds like you're in for some Thai revenge.

It will be cowardly. Massively inconvenient. Comepletely behind your back by people that smile and greet you warmly. And may take years.

There is nothing wrong with getting angry and brow beating once and a while, this is how Thai's get things done. It's a last resort mechanic for my wife and it works well. The problem is that they don't respect you or your wife ... don't see either of you as having authority and therefore something to be feared or sucked up to. Just the fact that you did the work yourself was ample proof of this, as was their ability to ignore your wife with no consequence. You might talk to your neighbors and see if they are upset by this ... complaining as as a group would help. Going to the Moo Bahn resident committee would be a sensible step. If you just stop paying your fees everyone will be told that you are the problem. Be sure the committee knows the management are the problem before you stop paying.

Beeing a bit money'd and foreign may save you from it.

Good luck khrap.

[DavidB4]

No mention of any lack of work being done.

My point exactly is that approach doesn't work here all the time. "Stay quiet and don't mention the real problem" and hope beyond hope that the problem will somehow go away or someone will take responsibility.

No, use your head and play it to your advantage. You've been given good advice about how you should have played it to your best over all advantage.

Most arrogant farangs are too up themselves to see the different ways things can be done. Shouting, stomping and screaming gets what they want in the very short term....

You lost this one. How much, will be seen over the coming years.

Best of luck. Hopefully they'll put your childish behavior down to being a childish farang, and not knowing how to properly behave.

"Most arrogant farangs"...this is the typical defense mechanism for Thais who cannot logically explain why they do things(meaning don't do anything) the way they do. We learn quickly to control our big mouths when we move here which is a good thing but we should never learn to stop being farangs and not taking any action. For me when someone says: "you don't understand you are not Thai" I say lucky me.

Edited April 4, 2016 by DavidB4

[torpedo1970]

As a farrang we dont understand the thainess..... bla bla bla...

i would stop paying....

Also as a sidenote, be careful about cutting the grass yourself.

I have a friend of a friend that got arrested by immigration for cutting his own grass. it is a protected profession, and we cant do it. he got reported by another farrang.

the juristic s and maintenance companies are just crooks that are all smiles the month the bill are due. then you dont see them for the next 11 months.... i have seen it too many times

[Bangkok Barry]

I've lived here for more than 10 years and think I have a good grasp of the Thai culture but there are limits and sometimes they need to be spoken. Assimilating doesn't mean we have to leave our values,integrity, and common sense at the immigration counter when we enter the country. I believe we could add some value if we try in a constructive manner.

You obviously haven't learned in your 10+ years here that their values and your imported values are not the same, and they are not going to adopt yours in their country. Frustrating yes, but you are never going to change anything even if you think you have in the short term. They'll just think you're a bloody nuisance and they might well put your wife in the same category, which is why she got angry.

Speaking as a 25+ year resident.

[Bangkok Barry]

Once upon a time when something illogical happened and I spoke to my wife about how it didn't make sense she would respond with "It's the Thai way." My response would be, "Yes, that's the problem." Now I just say nothing. It's a good way to stay married.

[SOTIRIOS]

.......their way or no way.....

[sstuff3]

I've lived here for more than 10 years and think I have a good grasp of the Thai culture but there are limits and sometimes they need to be spoken. Assimilating doesn't mean we have to leave our values,integrity, and common sense at the immigration counter when we enter the country. I believe we could add some value if we try in a constructive manner.

You obviously haven't learned in your 10+ years here that their values and your imported values are not the same, and they are not going to adopt yours in their country. Frustrating yes, but you are never going to change anything even if you think you have in the short term. They'll just think you're a bloody nuisance and they might well put your wife in the same category, which is why she got angry.

Speaking as a 25+ year resident.

I don't see a problem with retaining ones own values, integrity and common sense while living in a foreign country.

I understand very well that their values and mine (ours) don't always align (and likely never will and I'm OK with that). I also think it is equally important for them to understand the same about us, whether they (we) agree or not. If they want to avoid the "nuisance" of dealing with farangs then they can easily do so by performing the work they've been paid to do.

Saving face (avoiding embarrassment) is not foreign to the western world but most of the western world has learned that the best way to save face is to "protect" it in the first place by having integrity and honoring our commitments.

I love the country, people and culture here, otherwise I would have left long ago. The point of the post is not to bash the Thai people or force them to adopt our values or change theirs, but only a statement that the Thai Way doesn't always work. 4 years of trying it is proof enough.

[ozyjon]

Had you rented the house you,,,,,,,,,,