Harbor Mall. Now that it's open...

[johng]

The Harbor mall or Max Value (AEON) in Leam Chabang has closed ?

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Like Mike and Central are chock full of tourists?

Well, Mike used to be full of tourists. They were bused in every night. Not happening now though. I wonder where they go instead.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, tropo said:

Where is your "back home"? According to the Big Mac Index, Big Macs are underpriced in Thailand at USD $3.35 (January 2017)

 

http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index

What?

Stupid comparison. Macs should be compared as to how many Big Macs can be bought for the average wage. By that comparison, Maccers in LOS is way overpriced.

[JSixpack]

44 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What?

Stupid comparison. Macs should be compared as to how many Big Macs can be bought for the average wage. By that comparison, Maccers in LOS is way overpriced.

 

No The Economist has it quite right and "how many" is irrelevant. TVF Economists typically don't know what the average wage is and disingenuously confuse it with "minimum" wage. And "average wage" will be skewed here by including the average from some village 500 km from the cities that have McDonalds. Nor does it matter, as you're simply making a subjective and slightly bigoted judgement.

 

Suradit69 said it well last year:

 

On 9/29/2016 at 8:51 AM, Suradit69 said:

 

Presumably most people choose to eat something because they like the taste, not because of their (mis)understanding of western culture or consumerism. 

 

Most of us eat some things that we fully understand are not the healthiest choices without wringing our hands over the  political. economic or health issues.

 

I don't personally care for the food churned out by such places as McDonald's, but I also don't take the view that those who do  need to be lectured to by some Khun Farang who fancies himself to be omniscient. 

 

 

[JSixpack]

22 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

Mike and Central are in the centre of the city, so tourists can't look past it. Harbor is a completely different story

 

But you've failed to realize the significance of "different story." The different story means targeted towards different markets. Harbor's targeted towards Thai families both local and--well, TAT: TVF won't allow Thais to be called "tourists" as it messes up the DYING narrative--non-local Thais. Hence in Harbor you don't see big Western clothing or accessory chains like M&S or The Body Shop. More emphasis on relatively inexpensive restos appealing to locals, knick-knacks, a few cheaper clothing shops etc. And the main draw is the entertainment for the kids, with facilities Mike and Central don't have. And that seems to be working, as posters throughout the thread have noted, the latest here:

 

On 5/22/2017 at 4:35 PM, JayBird said:

I was just there the other night, around 7pmish.  It was not packed by any means but it was definitely not a ghost town.  Plenty of people in the floors and in the restaurants.  It might be one of those malls that is busy 'after working hours'.  Likewise, I saw few tourists there so it would not be packed with non-workers and non-students like Central would be.

 

There seemed to be more stores open since the opening day.  Also the Snow area now appears to be open (I approached it but did not go in, it appeared there were many kids/families playing inside and skating).  There also seems to be more restaurants (with several people each).  Lots of good choices food wise.

 

Plenty of Thai non-locals will be coming into and leaving town via Klang so they'll see Harbor. Opening the tunnel will be very helpful. And word gets around, esp among the kids. I think farang family tourists will find about the place and check it out.

 

So, the mall does OK after hours, on weekends (as noted throughout this thread), and holidays, including the school year breaks. And in this the mall isn't far removed from malls in the USA, which have always seemed deserted during the day during the workweek and make around 20-25% of total revenue just from holiday spending.

 

Hence it's not clear the Harbor is in fact "struggling." Rather it seems to be developing and finding what works best as would be expected.

 

Quote

and is now without a terminal 21 already struggling

 

And it's not clear whether Terminal 21 will compete head on in Harbor's niche. What is clear is that our TVF Economists have been busy applying the usual "tried-and-proven" rules, such as Fixed Pie (fundamental principle; read more here), Only One Needed, Got One Already, Thais Have No Money, Looking Not Buying, etc. Hence, as NanLaew was suggesting, when Central was built it was also predicted to fail, 'cause we had Royal Garden--and, as one our most distinguished economists observed, because of charging Bangkok prices. Paradoxically, Royal Garden was then predicted to fail 'cause of the competition from Central! (I love this forum.) And so the inevitable doom predictions for Harbor:

 

On 1/20/2017 at 1:53 AM, Allstars said:

. . . Harbor . . . everyone with just a little business sense knew it would fail? And yes it failed already.

 

Which we just don't want to give up. But consider that our TVF Posters can't see anyone in any malls and don't how any of them survive:

 

On 1/1/2017 at 4:24 PM, chrisandsu said:

I can't  see how any stores in thailand actually make money ! . . . I was in central mall in Chang Mai yesterday was there for a good 5 hours and only see two shopping bags .

 

So then they resort to silly explanations like the malls are selling free air-con, selling free name recognition, or are just money laundering operations. Anything to avoid that terrifying thought that maybe somebody's buying something while I'm not looking. But to accept that terrifying thought would be trash the whole DOOMED narrative on which so much happiness depends, so we're gon' stay well clear of THAT.

 

Though Fixed Pie and Only One Needed and the usual thinking in binary lead our simple-minded economists to believe that Thais (and tourists) can't go to BOTH Terminal 21 AND Harbor, actually they can and will, nothing's stopping them. This helps explain how we have a Royal Garden AND a CentralFestival.

 

[tropo]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What?

Stupid comparison. Macs should be compared as to how many Big Macs can be bought for the average wage. By that comparison, Maccers in LOS is way overpriced.

There's nothing stupid about it. Average wages are meaningless unless taking into consideration all aspects of the cost of living. Apart from that, as JSixpack stated, <deleted> is the average wage in Thailand. All we have any idea of is the minimum wage.

 

 

[tazly]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What?

Stupid comparison. Macs should be compared as to how many Big Macs can be bought for the average wage. By that comparison, Maccers in LOS is way overpriced.

Wrong....go to wiki when in doubt....it informally measures purchasing power parity.....here let me help you

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index

The Big Mac Index is published by The Economist as an informal way of measuring the purchasing power parity (PPP) between two currencies and provides a test of the extent to which market exchange rates result in goods costing the same in different countries. It "seeks to make exchange-rate theory a bit more digestible".^[1]

 

After you have digested that, go eat a real big mac which you will have a whopper of a time digesting.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

Went there myself to get the real deal, about 3.30 pm.

While not exactly busting, there were a reasonable number of people about for the time of day. A few were actually eating something.

Few of the tech shops open. I guess they only open at night.

 

I didn't see any sign of a cinema.

I didn't see where the climbing wall is either, but I forgot to look for it.

 

The roller place was deserted, but no kids around anyway. May be busy after school.

 

Seems well designed for a long thin section of land.

 

I guess the developers are counting on more residents moving into that area. A few condos nearby that I saw, and probably more to come.

If anything, I reckon the fact that cars can't come across Sukhumvit to Central Rd. yet is affecting numbers. Once they open that link, I'd think more customers from over the track might visit.

 

All up, I liked the mall and it certainly would be my choice if I lived in that area. Pity about the cinema though.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, tazly said:

Wrong....go to wiki when in doubt....it informally measures purchasing power parity.....here let me help you

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index

The Big Mac Index is published by The Economist as an informal way of measuring the purchasing power parity (PPP) between two currencies and provides a test of the extent to which market exchange rates result in goods costing the same in different countries. It "seeks to make exchange-rate theory a bit more digestible".^[1]

 

After you have digested that, go eat a real big mac which you will have a whopper of a time digesting.

 

Hmmmm. I actually like an occasional Big Mac, but it is junk food, full of bad stuff designed to get one addicted and way too much sugar. Back in the real world, I get fast food because it is fast, and it's cheap, but no way I'd take a GF there for a romantic meal, LOL.

However here in the bubble where locals apparently think it's some sort of status to eat in the plastic consumer driven so called "restaurants", they are quite happy to cough up nearly 3 times the cost of a decent Thai meal in a reasonably pleasant real restaurant. I even had an excellent full English breakfast at the best restaurant in Pattaya that was half the price of a small burger with some sweet sauce, some horrid skinny fries and a paper cup of sugar with a bit of water.

Now, while Thais are well within their rights to eat at a Maccers if they so wish, In a country where millions work for a monthly wage of around 9,000 baht or less, to say that a Big Mac meal is underpriced at nearly 300 baht is frankly . How many western countries charge the daily wage for a Maccers?

I'm using a meal as the comparison, as not many just get the burger.

 

All this talk of Big Macs is making me crave one, so I think I'll indulge tonight, and I'll get the correct price in Pattaya then.

[balo]

3 hours ago, JSixpack said:

o believe that Thais (and tourists) can't go to BOTH Terminal 21 AND Harbor, actually they can and will, nothing's stopping them. This helps explain how we have a Royal Garden AND a CentralFestival.

 

I agree, as long as the population is big enough to support the economy , we have a mix of locals and foreigners, and some Bangkokians as well during the weekends .   

RGP and Milkes been there for years, Central followed, now 3 new malls within a few years. Maybe the Pattaya/ Chonburi  population has increased a lot during the last 5 years, I don't know. When you look at the traffic its bad so I guess so .

. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, balo said:

 

I agree, as long as the population is big enough to support the economy , we have a mix of locals and foreigners, and some Bangkokians as well during the weekends .   

RGP and Milkes been there for years, Central followed, now 3 new malls within a few years. Maybe the Pattaya/ Chonburi  population has increased a lot during the last 5 years, I don't know. When you look at the traffic its bad so I guess so .

. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Using RG Mall and Central is a bad comparison.

RG Mall was the only game in town for ages till Avenues opened. I don't consider Mikes to be a Mall as such. It was just a heap of cheap goods for the bused in tour groups.

Sure, Big C was way up near the Dolphin, but it wasn't really comparable.

The customer base at RG must have declined significantly after Central opened to make them spend a whole heap of money to tart it up.

If they opened up a casino, then yes, probably would be the money around to make Harbour and Terminal 21, plus Central and RG profitable for the shop renters. Otherwise, it's like the barbeers, too many chasing the not large enough customer base, so most are barely surviving.

[chrisandsu]

11 hours ago, JSixpack said:

 

But you've failed to realize the significance of "different story." The different story means targeted towards different markets. Harbor's targeted towards Thai families both local and--well, TAT: TVF won't allow Thais to be called "tourists" as it messes up the DYING narrative--non-local Thais. Hence in Harbor you don't see big Western clothing or accessory chains like M&S or The Body Shop. More emphasis on relatively inexpensive restos appealing to locals, knick-knacks, a few cheaper clothing shops etc. And the main draw is the entertainment for the kids, with facilities Mike and Central don't have. And that seems to be working, as posters throughout the thread have noted, the latest here:

 

 

Plenty of Thai non-locals will be coming into and leaving town via Klang so they'll see Harbor. Opening the tunnel will be very helpful. And word gets around, esp among the kids. I think farang family tourists will find about the place and check it out.

 

So, the mall does OK after hours, on weekends (as noted throughout this thread), and holidays, including the school year breaks. And in this the mall isn't far removed from malls in the USA, which have always seemed deserted during the day during the workweek and make around 20-25% of total revenue just from holiday spending.

 

Hence it's not clear the Harbor is in fact "struggling." Rather it seems to be developing and finding what works best as would be expected.

 

 

And it's not clear whether Terminal 21 will compete head on in Harbor's niche. What is clear is that our TVF Economists have been busy applying the usual "tried-and-proven" rules, such as Fixed Pie (fundamental principle; read more here), Only One Needed, Got One Already, Thais Have No Money, Looking Not Buying, etc. Hence, as NanLaew was suggesting, when Central was built it was also predicted to fail, 'cause we had Royal Garden--and, as one our most distinguished economists observed, because of charging Bangkok prices. Paradoxically, Royal Garden was then predicted to fail 'cause of the competition from Central! (I love this forum.) And so the inevitable doom predictions for Harbor:

 

 

Which we just don't want to give up. But consider that our TVF Posters can't see anyone in any malls and don't how any of them survive:

 

 

So then they resort to silly explanations like the malls are selling free air-con, selling free name recognition, or are just money laundering operations. Anything to avoid that terrifying thought that maybe somebody's buying something while I'm not looking. But to accept that terrifying thought would be trash the whole DOOMED narrative on which so much happiness depends, so we're gon' stay well clear of THAT.

 

Though Fixed Pie and Only One Needed and the usual thinking in binary lead our simple-minded economists to believe that Thais (and tourists) can't go to BOTH Terminal 21 AND Harbor, actually they can and will, nothing's stopping them. This helps explain how we have a Royal Garden AND a CentralFestival.

 

For Christ sake are you still flogging this dead horse ? Are the malls that boring ? 

[bkk6060]

35 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

For Christ sake are you still flogging this dead horse ? Are the malls that boring ? 

HA.  No, if someone has no life and never gets out, that is the consequence.

The next one will be about how fantastic the real estate market is.  Waiting....

Edited May 24, 2017 by bkk6060

[JSixpack]

5 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

For Christ sake are you still flogging this dead horse ? Are the malls that boring ? 

 

4 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

HA.  No, if someone has no life and never gets out, that is the consequence.

The next one will be about how fantastic the real estate market is.  Waiting....

 

Or if someone has lost an argument because he had no rational argument in the first place, he (around here anyway) tends to be a sore loser and resorts to personal attacks--and lying, of course. That's how childish we are, supposedly grown men. Fortunately we have forum rules against doing exactly that. Or unfortunately as it prevents me from having a lot more fun too. Yet if I have to abide by the forum rules, others should have to as well. Am I right or am I right?

Edited May 24, 2017 by JSixpack

[NanLaew]

13 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Using RG Mall and Central is a bad comparison.

RG Mall was the only game in town for ages till Avenues opened. I don't consider Mikes to be a Mall as such. It was just a heap of cheap goods for the bused in tour groups.

Sure, Big C was way up near the Dolphin, but it wasn't really comparable.

The customer base at RG must have declined significantly after Central opened to make them spend a whole heap of money to tart it up.

If they opened up a casino, then yes, probably would be the money around to make Harbour and Terminal 21, plus Central and RG profitable for the shop renters. Otherwise, it's like the barbeers, too many chasing the not large enough customer base, so most are barely surviving.

Thanks for bringing up some of the other Pattaya malls that despite the predictions of the usual suspects, are still open such as RGP, the newly refurbished Central Marina and the much maligned and misunderstood Avenue. There's also the brand new 'open air' type The Bay just north of Soi 6 on Beach that so far has enticed McDonalds, Starbucks and (I think) Boots to open their doors there.

 

I recall a few years ago when they pulled out the escalators at Tukcom for refurbishment, the usual suspects were on here lamenting its imminent and long overdue closure. Then they reinstalled the escalators, Tops expanded their basement, etc..

 

There was a sighting of a Gulfstream (private jet) at U-Tapao last week and someone on the AirAsia plane taxiing by typed the tail fin registration into google and came up with it being owned by Wynn Casino's Las Vegas.

[Rimmer]

Flame and a reply have been removed

[wpcoe]

43 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

There was a sighting of a Gulfstream (private jet) at U-Tapao last week and someone on the AirAsia plane taxiing by typed the tail fin registration into google and came up with it being owned by Wynn Casino's Las Vegas.

 

 

 Now, that is interesting.

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

There was a sighting of a Gulfstream (private jet) at U-Tapao last week and someone on the AirAsia plane taxiing by typed the tail fin registration into google and came up with it being owned by Wynn Casino's Las Vegas.

 

You have a link to that "rumour"?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Thanks for bringing up some of the other Pattaya malls that despite the predictions of the usual suspects, are still open such as RGP, the newly refurbished Central Marina and the much maligned and misunderstood Avenue. There's also the brand new 'open air' type The Bay just north of Soi 6 on Beach that so far has enticed McDonalds, Starbucks and (I think) Boots to open their doors there.

 

I recall a few years ago when they pulled out the escalators at Tukcom for refurbishment, the usual suspects were on here lamenting its imminent and long overdue closure. Then they reinstalled the escalators, Tops expanded their basement, etc..

 

There was a sighting of a Gulfstream (private jet) at U-Tapao last week and someone on the AirAsia plane taxiing by typed the tail fin registration into google and came up with it being owned by Wynn Casino's Las Vegas.

Avenue may be surviving, but not by much. The ground floor open area is inhabited only by some stalls

The first floor above is closed off and many glassed in areas are closed.

If not for Villa, Maccers, the bowling and the cinema ( which barely gets customers- I often have the cinema almost to myself ) Avenue would have closed long ago ( IMO ).

 

I couldn't believe it when I saw that The Bay has the same design as Avenues- don't those developers do any research? 

 

Have you been to Tukom recently? In the process of a long slow decline. No money has been spent to renovate it, so I guess the owners are in the same boat as the Avenue owners.

Just because a building is full of little stalls doesn't mean it is economically healthy. The desperation in the stall holders voices as I pass by says it all. Even Power Buy is in a shop desperately in need of an upgrade.

 

I have no doubt that the lords and masters of Pattaya are hopeful of a casino to make them very, very rich, but if it happens, expect accommodation costs to rapidly inflate.

[Orac]

Avenue may be surviving, but not by much. The ground floor open area is inhabited only by some stalls
The first floor above is closed off and many glassed in areas are closed.
If not for Villa, Maccers, the bowling and the cinema ( which barely gets customers- I often have the cinema almost to myself ) Avenue would have closed long ago ( IMO ).
 
I couldn't believe it when I saw that The Bay has the same design as Avenues- don't those developers do any research? 
 
Have you been to Tukom recently? In the process of a long slow decline. No money has been spent to renovate it, so I guess the owners are in the same boat as the Avenue owners.
Just because a building is full of little stalls doesn't mean it is economically healthy. The desperation in the stall holders voices as I pass by says it all. Even Power Buy is in a shop desperately in need of an upgrade.
 
I have no doubt that the lords and masters of Pattaya are hopeful of a casino to make them very, very rich, but if it happens, expect accommodation costs to rapidly inflate.

Aren't the owners of Tukcom not also the people behind Harbor Mall?

[NanLaew]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Avenue may be surviving, but not by much. The ground floor open area is inhabited only by some stalls

The first floor above is closed off and many glassed in areas are closed.

If not for Villa, Maccers, the bowling and the cinema ( which barely gets customers- I often have the cinema almost to myself ) Avenue would have closed long ago ( IMO ).

 

I couldn't believe it when I saw that The Bay has the same design as Avenues- don't those developers do any research? 

 

Have you been to Tukom recently? In the process of a long slow decline. No money has been spent to renovate it, so I guess the owners are in the same boat as the Avenue owners.

Just because a building is full of little stalls doesn't mean it is economically healthy. The desperation in the stall holders voices as I pass by says it all. Even Power Buy is in a shop desperately in need of an upgrade.

 

I have no doubt that the lords and masters of Pattaya are hopeful of a casino to make them very, very rich, but if it happens, expect accommodation costs to rapidly inflate.

OK, try this then. Beyond the Golden Tex department store on Soi 6, how many malls and/or department stores have closed and gone out of business in Pattaya in the past 25 years or however long you can personally recall (whatever is longest)?

[Rimmer]

Multiple off topic posts that are hijacking the topic have been removed,

[champers]

Section 44 has just been invoked to speed up the procedural processes that can hamper or put off foreign investors. This government is desperate to get investment into the Eastern Economic Corridor. I think any casino links won't become known till next year but businesses are hanging on to prime sites even though they are not currently looking viable. Is it all about future prospects? Short term pain for long term gain?

[champers]

7 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Thanks for bringing up some of the other Pattaya malls that despite the predictions of the usual suspects, are still open such as RGP, the newly refurbished Central Marina and the much maligned and misunderstood Avenue. There's also the brand new 'open air' type The Bay just north of Soi 6 on Beach that so far has enticed McDonalds, Starbucks and (I think) Boots to open their doors there.

 

I recall a few years ago when they pulled out the escalators at Tukcom for refurbishment, the usual suspects were on here lamenting its imminent and long overdue closure. Then they reinstalled the escalators, Tops expanded their basement, etc..

 

There was a sighting of a Gulfstream (private jet) at U-Tapao last week and someone on the AirAsia plane taxiing by typed the tail fin registration into google and came up with it being owned by Wynn Casino's Las Vegas.

I don't doubt that Wynn; or any other major casino; would gladly transport a local hi roller to and from their casino. Would it be Macao or Singapore?

[yaagjon]

11 hours ago, JSixpack said:

 

 

Or if someone has lost an argument because he had no rational argument in the first place, he (around here anyway) tends to be a sore loser and resorts to personal attacks--and lying, of course. That's how childish we are, supposedly grown men. Fortunately we have forum rules against doing exactly that. Or unfortunately as it prevents me from having a lot more fun too. Yet if I have to abide by the forum rules, others should have to as well. Am I right or am I right?

I think you lost the argument old chap, any "neutral" person can see that Harbour Mall isn't performing well. Am I right or am I right.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, NanLaew said:

OK, try this then. Beyond the Golden Tex department store on Soi 6, how many malls and/or department stores have closed and gone out of business in Pattaya in the past 25 years or however long you can personally recall (whatever is longest)?

Which way?

However, no mall or department store in Pattaya has closed that I know of other than the place that was demolished to build Terminal 21. That was barely open throughout it's existence.

That does not mean they are doing well though.

Other than the facilities I noted in The Avenue, it's mostly closed for business.

Isn't this thread more about all the new ones opening, than the old ones though?

I still think they must know something we don't. 

 

Something to think about. The traffic in Pattaya is already horrendeous in low season, and there is no way to alleviate it without demolishing half of the buildings on all the major roads to widen them. If enough people are going to be in Pattaya to make all the present and future malls profitable, what effect is that going to have on the congestion??

[thaibeachlovers]

34 minutes ago, yaagjon said:

I think you lost the argument old chap, any "neutral" person can see that Harbour Mall isn't performing well. Am I right or am I right.

If the plan is to depend on the population increase and the dark side once the Central Rd like is open, it is not necessary for the mall to be doing well at the moment. Very unfair on the people leasing floor space though.

[janclaes47]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the plan is to depend on the population increase and the dark side once the Central Rd like is open, it is not necessary for the mall to be doing well at the moment. Very unfair on the people leasing floor space though.

We will see in a month from now, but that is not what Harbor depends on. If the Bangkok people can reach the mall, then I bet those from the dark side can as well.

 

I hear very well from my son, he and his friends went to Harbor once when it was fresh open, and since go rather to Central however they have to pass Harbor to get there.

 

He went to Harbor with his mom about a month ago, and he said there was nobody on the ice rink, and that was at 7pm when some on her claim that Harbor runs well in the after hours.

 

 

[NanLaew]

The myth of 'Bangkok people' perpetuates. Outwith the holiday weekends, it is predominantly local area residents that are frequenting these malls. They live and work over in Bowin and other dormitory towns surrounding the huge industrial estates beyond the dark side but less than 30 minutes away. They come to Pattaya for the same reasons that the minority Thai Pattaya resident does, shopping, eating and a day by the seaside.

 

Harbour Mall is a new development in a very active and growing market sector. It won't pass away anytime before our faithful few do.

[NanLaew]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the plan is to depend on the population increase and the dark side once the Central Rd like is open, it is not necessary for the mall to be doing well at the moment. Very unfair on the people leasing floor space though.

Exactly. Their previous development in Laem Chabang was a similar 'white elephant' but recently has taken on a new lease of life. Since nobody that I know lives in that area, (and no TV members have claimed to frequent the mall) I can only speculate as to why this is. I would consider that improved accessibility via highway for the residents further inland could be a factor?