Thai National owning Foreign Freehold

[sproket]

Can a Thai national own a 'foreign freehold' on a condo if she has a mortgage on the said condo?

My wife (11 years) and I bought a condo on Phuket 4 years ago. I (UK) am in full time employment in Thailand and therefore eligible for a mortgage and therefore guarantee on my wife's payments. When we bought the condo it was 'Foreign Freehold' or so we were of the understanding. We have letters and papers to say the condo was 'Foreign Freehold'. As it transpires, the legal representative for our conveyance did not register the condo as 'Foreign Freehold' based on my wife being a Thai national and having a mortgage on the property. We have recently become aware that the freehold we though we had, has been moved to another condo within our building and we are now categorized as 'Thai freehold'. So, if i can find the answer to the question, then this is our first step towards correcting this issue. I do know there are deeper implications but baby steps to begin.

[Langsuan Man]

You had better hope and pray that there are still "farang" quotas available in that building for the Chanote to be changed

Sorry, but you are responsible for whatever the " legal representative for our conveyance" did or did not do. Unfortunately with the wife involved you can't even fall back on the I don't speak Thai excuse explanation

FIrst step is to see a lawyer ( not the legal representative for our conveyance) to see what your options are

Good luck

[KittenKong]

My wife (11 years) and I bought a condo on Phuket 4 years ago. I (UK) am in full time employment in Thailand and therefore eligible for a mortgage and therefore guarantee on my wife's payments. When we bought the condo it was 'Foreign Freehold' or so we were of the understanding. We have letters and papers to say the condo was 'Foreign Freehold'. As it transpires, the legal representative for our conveyance did not register the condo as 'Foreign Freehold' based on my wife being a Thai national and having a mortgage on the property. We have recently become aware that the freehold we though we had, has been moved to another condo within our building and we are now categorized as 'Thai freehold'. So, if i can find the answer to the question, then this is our first step towards correcting this issue. I do know there are deeper implications but baby steps to begin.

Your title hasn't been "moved" to anything. It sounds like you bought in Thai name and you still are in Thai name. It's easy to tell: get someone to read the name on the chanote. It will either be your name or your wife's. One is farang, the other isn't.

To own in farang name you have to produce a bank certificate to the effect that you have imported the full purchase price in currency from abroad. It sounds like you didn't do this. Even if there is still ratio available for farang ownership in your building (the ratio is 49/51 and applies to all the units in total, not to the individual units) you would need to produce that certificate and pay the full transfer tax in order to transfer it from your wife's name to yours. (Some banks will "arrange" the certificate, for a fee.)

Moral: when it comes to property and money in Thailand, never trust anyone. Check everything yourself. Letters and papers are meaningless. Only the chanote has any validity at all and even that could be fake. Everyone lies constantly, and is simply out to earn as much as possible out of you and to do as little work as possible. Phuket is particularly corrupt in this respect.

Your first step should be to ask the JPM of your building exactly what the ownership ratio currently is. As a co-owner you can demand to see the list. I suspect that you will have been shafted over this though.

[seedy]

Derogatory posts Removed.

[trogers]

A Thai national cannot own a Foreigner Freehold, and a foreigner cannot own a Thai Freehold.

If bought through joint names, you get half a Foreigner Freehold because you had to show foreign funds imported into the country for half the value in order to put your name into the title deed.

[bangkoklawyer24]

No one at TV seems to really understand the foreign quota thing

[12DrinkMore]

A Thai national cannot own a Foreigner Freehold, and a foreigner cannot own a Thai Freehold.

If bought through joint names, you get half a Foreigner Freehold because you had to show foreign funds imported into the country for half the value in order to put your name into the title deed.

I find that hard to believe.

Unless you have an example of where it has actually been applied.

[trogers]

A Thai national cannot own a Foreigner Freehold, and a foreigner cannot own a Thai Freehold.

If bought through joint names, you get half a Foreigner Freehold because you had to show foreign funds imported into the country for half the value in order to put your name into the title deed.

I find that hard to believe.

Unless you have an example of where it has actually been applied.

I have 6 condos, two under my wife's name, three in my name, and one with both our names.

[Bench499d]

I am completely ignorant of this market, so I have to ask, how can anyone have a freehold on a unit in a condo building? Surely the freehold is owned by the landowner?

[SOTIRIOS]

...sounds like you are out of whatever you invested.....which is typical....

,,,from what you have described....what they said...then what they wrote down....unbeknownst to you are completely different...

...another case of 'us and them'......'they' come first.....'we' come last...if at all....

...only way you might get a fraction would be a divorce....costly....and very uncertain...

...trusting ......without verifying .....through an impartial, reputable party.....is suicide unfortunately.....

[bazza40]

No one at TV seems to really understand the foreign quota thing

One doesn't need to if they are renting.

[KittenKong]

I have 6 condos, two under my wife's name, three in my name, and one with both our names.

Not that it makes any difference to me personally but I would be interested to learn how that last one works. Particularly into which part of the ratio that unit falls. Did you produce an FEC form (ex-TT3) for the full purchase price, or half of it, or none of it?

[KittenKong]

I am completely ignorant of this market, so I have to ask, how can anyone have a freehold on a unit in a condo building? Surely the freehold is owned by the landowner?

Normally the building owns the land, and the co-owners own a proportion of the building including their particular unit.

I would not want to buy a condo in a building that did not own the land it sits on.

[jippytum]

A Thai national can not own a foreign ratio condo in a condominium . Even if a foreign husband owned the condo under the foreign ratio and died leaving it to his Thai wife the condo would then revert to Thai ownership on completed transfer at the land office .The foreign ratio must not exceed 49% of foreign owned units in the building .The minimum level for Thai owned units is 51% however there is no maximum level of Thai ownership up to 100 % although this almost never occurs.

[trogers]

I have 6 condos, two under my wife's name, three in my name, and one with both our names.

Not that it makes any difference to me personally but I would be interested to learn how that last one works. Particularly into which part of the ratio that unit falls. Did you produce an FEC form (ex-TT3) for the full purchase price, or half of it, or none of it?

What happened is that I imported in money for a 2-bedroom unit, but then decided to acquired it using only my wife's name so that she can mortgaged it later.

The loan from the mortgage was then used to acquired a 1-bedroom unit under our joint names. The Land office required me to provide the FEC for half the value but I gave them the FEC for the 2-bedroom unit, which was more than half the value (Bt2.3m against half of Bt1.5m). The FEC was accepted.

No FEC is required to transfer the title deed of a condo to a Thai ID card. Nor would the title deed show any ownership title as foreign or local. The FEC is a prerequisite to allow a foreigner's name be included into the title deed and passport details recorded.

A copy of the title deed is then submitted to the Juristic office of the condo, who would then separate and update the percentages of foreign and Thai ownerships based on the names in all the submitted title deeds.

[andken]

If a Thai National holds two passports one Thai the other foreign from what I understand they can register it in a foreign name on the Chanote and in the foreign quota ? They have to enter Thailand on their foreign passport and produce the TT3 foreign exchange transaction form enabling the Condominum to be registered under the foreign quota in the building. They would use their foreign second passport at the land office to do the registration in their name on the Chanote. Not 100 percent sure on this but that is how I understand it

[trogers]

If a Thai National holds two passports one Thai the other foreign from what I understand they can register it in a foreign name on the Chanote and in the foreign quota ? They have to enter Thailand on their foreign passport and produce the TT3 foreign exchange transaction form enabling the Condominum to be registered under the foreign quota in the building. They would use their foreign second passport at the land office to do the registration in their name on the Chanote. Not 100 percent sure on this but that is how I understand it

If the same name on the two passports is a Thai name, would the Land office accept it as foreign? And how would the Juristic office know it is under the foreign quota, seeing only a Thai name on the copy of the title deed?

[KarenBravo]

If your wife got a mortgage for it, it definitely isn't part of the foreign ownership quota.

[KittenKong]

What happened is that I imported in money for a 2-bedroom unit, but then decided to acquired it using only my wife's name so that she can mortgaged it later.

The loan from the mortgage was then used to acquired a 1-bedroom unit under our joint names. The Land office required me to provide the FEC for half the value but I gave them the FEC for the 2-bedroom unit, which was more than half the value (Bt2.3m against half of Bt1.5m). The FEC was accepted.

No FEC is required to transfer the title deed of a condo to a Thai ID card. Nor would the title deed show any ownership title as foreign or local. The FEC is a prerequisite to allow a foreigner's name be included into the title deed and passport details recorded.

A copy of the title deed is then submitted to the Juristic office of the condo, who would then separate and update the percentages of foreign and Thai ownerships based on the names in all the submitted title deeds.

An unusual arrangement that might be problematic if you want to sell one day. Certainly not something I have ever come across before.

[KittenKong]

A Thai national can not own a foreign ratio condo in a condominium . Even if a foreign husband owned the condo under the foreign ratio and died leaving it to his Thai wife the condo would then revert to Thai ownership on completed transfer at the land office .The foreign ratio must not exceed 49% of foreign owned units in the building .The minimum level for Thai owned units is 51% however there is no maximum level of Thai ownership up to 100 % although this almost never occurs.

Actually there are many condo buildings that are nowhere near 49% farang owned. Even in Pattaya.

And there is no such thing as a "foreign ratio condo". There are just units that are owned by foreigners and units that are owned by Thais. The same unit can be owned by anyone as long as the total farang occupancy does not exceed 49%. In the example you gave the wife would pay the transfer tax and inherit the unit in her name and the building ratio would alter accordingly, which could allow a farang to buy a unit with a similar number of voting rights from a Thai.

[andken]

There are two Chanotes for each property one is held by the owner and the other which looks different in some respects is held by the land office. The Chanote held by the land office has more detail than the one held by the owner hence my comments about the Thai who holds two passports being able to hold the property in a foreign name. The Chanote at the land office is used for reference in the event that the owner looses his Chanote and requires a replacement which when supplied appears as a normal owners Chanote but has red Thai writing on the top off it indicating it is a replacement Chanote. If the old Chanote now appears which would have been reported as lost or stolen then the land office is aware that the the replacement is now the active legal owners Chanote and the original Chanote is now null and void and cannot be used for transfer. It stops people borrowing money on a Chanote that is invalid as the loan or mortgage has to be registered at the Land Office.

[andken]

There are two Chanotes for each property one is held by the owner and the other which looks different in some respects is held by the land office. The Chanote held by the land office has more detail than the one held by the owner hence my comments about the Thai who holds two passports being able to hold the property in a foreign name. The Chanote at the land office is used for reference in the event that the owner looses his Chanote and requires a replacement which when supplied appears as a normal owners Chanote but has red Thai writing on the top off it indicating it is a replacement Chanote. If the old Chanote now appears which would have been reported as lost or stolen then the land office is aware that the the replacement is now the active legal owners Chanote and the original Chanote is now null and void and cannot be used for transfer. It stops people borrowing money on a Chanote that is invalid as the loan or mortgage has to be registered at the Land Office.

[trogers]

What happened is that I imported in money for a 2-bedroom unit, but then decided to acquired it using only my wife's name so that she can mortgaged it later.

The loan from the mortgage was then used to acquired a 1-bedroom unit under our joint names. The Land office required me to provide the FEC for half the value but I gave them the FEC for the 2-bedroom unit, which was more than half the value (Bt2.3m against half of Bt1.5m). The FEC was accepted.

No FEC is required to transfer the title deed of a condo to a Thai ID card. Nor would the title deed show any ownership title as foreign or local. The FEC is a prerequisite to allow a foreigner's name be included into the title deed and passport details recorded.

A copy of the title deed is then submitted to the Juristic office of the condo, who would then separate and update the percentages of foreign and Thai ownerships based on the names in all the submitted title deeds.

An unusual arrangement that might be problematic if you want to sell one day. Certainly not something I have ever come across before.

Why would it be problematic? The building I have bought into have not exceeded it's foreign quota of 49% since the developer transferred it in 1996.

[KittenKong]

An unusual arrangement that might be problematic if you want to sell one day. Certainly not something I have ever come across before.

Why would it be problematic? The building I have bought into have not exceeded it's foreign quota of 49% since the developer transferred it in 1996.

I suspected that was the case. In fact I suspect that they only reason you were able to do it at all was because there are no ratio issues in your building.

It might be problematic in a building in which the ratio was near 49/51 and if a farang wanted to buy. Or indeed if your building became more popular with farangs.

[trogers]

An unusual arrangement that might be problematic if you want to sell one day. Certainly not something I have ever come across before.

Why would it be problematic? The building I have bought into have not exceeded it's foreign quota of 49% since the developer transferred it in 1996.

I suspected that was the case. In fact I suspect that they only reason you were able to do it at all was because there are no ratio issues in your building.

It might be problematic in a building in which the ratio was near 49/51 and if a farang wanted to buy. Or indeed if your building became more popular with farangs.

That's why I buy only old condos that have only one same price, for foreign or Thai buyers. More important is that capital value tracks general inflation while giving at least 6% net rental returns.

Using 2 condo units in this project as a retirement fund for my wife, with 20 months mortgage payments left on a 10-year loan.

[GOLDBUGGY]

To clarify, a Thai can own any property in Thailand, which includes buying a Foreign Freehold. Where you are getting confused I think is that you and your wife bought this property under Foreign Freehold and think this property will remain a Foreign Freehold for life, and this does not happen. This 51% / 49% Ratio is constantly changing in Condo Buildings and it is up to the Condo Management to provide this information to the government. So first off this is a government rule and not the condo building rule.

It is obvious that having a property held in Foreign Freehold is probably more valuable as you can sell this property to anyone, whereas a Thai Freehold can only be sold to a Thai or a Company. Or be the first one sold if this 49% Ratio drops below that. Your problem stems from when you and your wife purchased this property. As a Foreigner you had a chance to buy this property under your name and thus keep this property as a Foreign Freehold. But you elected to buy this property under your wife's name (a Thai) and thus gave up this right.

You may have had good reasons to buy this property under you wife's name. For one reason you may not have had the money needed, or wished to spend it, to buy this property in cash under your name. If you did you could have sent your money here, and then got a Foreign Exchange Certificate from the bank (so you can move this money out after you sell) and bought this property in your name. In that case the property would have remained a Foreign Freehold.

The other reason seems to be that you took out a mortgage under your wife's name and therefore this property would have to be under your wife's name to secure this mortgage. Had you been able to get a mortgage in your name and your wife became the guarantee, then again you could have purchased this property under your name and kept this as a Foreign Freehold. But I am guessing now that you were not able to do this and thus why this mortgage is under your wife's name. Just so you are clear on this, being a Mortgage Guarantor on a bank loan gives you no rights to property ownership at all. Absolutely none! This only exists as added security for the bank mortgage to help secure there loan.

Can you get this changed back now to a Foreign Freehold? I highly doubt that. When your Thai Wife bought this property she increased the Thai Ownership Ratio and also reduced the Foreign Ownership Ratio, leaving one condo up for sale now as a Foreign Owner. If no Foreigner bought a condo in that building yet, then I suppose it is possible for your wife to sell you this property under Foreign Freehold. But to be honest I have never heard anyone who ever did this. So I am not sure if it even can be done legally.

Keep in mind that if it can be done it would come at a high cost to you. Not to just mention paying the Land Transfer Fees and Taxes again, and a Special Fee for transferring this condo back to a Foreign Freehold, but also your wife's mortgage would have to be paid off in full. No bank is going to want to hold a mortgage with a person who doesn't own this property anymore, and why they have a lean on this property and at the Land Office. So before it even can be sold it has to be paid off.

So IMHO it is too late to change things back and so just move on and forget about it. Pay off your mortgage as planned and enjoy your place with your wife. Having this property under Thai Ownership does not make this impossible to resell. ,

[KittenKong]

Keep in mind that if it can be done it would come at a high cost to you. Not to just mention paying the Land Transfer Fees and Taxes again, and a Special Fee for transferring this condo back to a Foreign Freehold .......

I've never heard of any such "special fee".

[blackcab]

Keep in mind that if it can be done it would come at a high cost to you. Not to just mention paying the Land Transfer Fees and Taxes again, and a Special Fee for transferring this condo back to a Foreign Freehold .......

I've never heard of any such "special fee".

I've never heard of a foreign freehold. Do the title documents for foreigners look different to the title documents for Thai?

[bangkoklawyer24]

Keep in mind that if it can be done it would come at a high cost to you. Not to just mention paying the Land Transfer Fees and Taxes again, and a Special Fee for transferring this condo back to a Foreign Freehold .......

I've never heard of any such "special fee".

I've never heard of a foreign freehold. Do the title documents for foreigners look different to the title documents for Thai?

Very easy. The foreigner condo chanote has a yellow Garuda, like the housebook. The Thai Garuda is blue. Just kidding.

[beginner]

K