The term "oriental" -- insulting and outdated?

[hugh2121]

Farangs are the most racist people in the world. They invented these derogatory terms as a form of oppression towards other races. There are no other racial groups other than the whites out there who formed such hate groups like the KKK, white supremacist groups, skinheads, etc. Whites oppressed the blacks the most so the whites are now referred as cracker honkey donkeys. Someone told me that white people are like crap because you see them and it everywhere in the world.

Well, thanks for sharing that lovely gem, but in reality racism exists in every society. Get to know Asian cultures well, and learn all about the racism between Asian nationalities.

Hey there, are we still allowed to use the term Asian?

Allowed where? You can say Oriental if you want. The OP was only about written U.S. government DOCUMENTS now avoiding a VERY DATED term (in the U.S. context).

But not OUTDATED any more than European, Asian, African, North or South American or even Bovine and Primate. The point being that many words are DATED but not OUTDATED or offensive.

[Asheron]

It's an outdated word, referring to an outdated concept - that white people were the most important, and the world revolved around them.

I can see that some here haven't quite moved on from that era.

Please start making a list (medicine, technology etc etc etc) of all the great achievements arabs, blacks and latinos have given to us the last century and then make same list of what white have given to the humanity... i know this is shocking for a SJW but you might find that the "non-white" list quite short.

Wow, here's a guy trying to take credit for other people's achievements because they may have the same skin color as him. Here's a more relevant question: what have YOU given to humanity? So essentially, you're the same as these "arabs, blacks and latinos" that you're criticizing. You have absolutely nothing in common with the great minds of the last century, so don't even pretend that you do.

Awww, how is that keyboard crusader going for you Dorkshire? Atleast my greatest achievement isn't trying to be the Internet Tough Guy

[SoiBiker]

It's an outdated word, referring to an outdated concept - that white people were the most important, and the world revolved around them.

I can see that some here haven't quite moved on from that era.

Please start making a list (medicine, technology etc etc etc) of all the great achievements arabs, blacks and latinos have given to us the last century and then make same list of what white have given to the humanity... i know this is shocking for a SJW but you might find that the "non-white" list quite short.

Wow, here's a guy trying to take credit for other people's achievements because they may have the same skin color as him. Here's a more relevant question: what have YOU given to humanity? So essentially, you're the same as these "arabs, blacks and latinos" that you're criticizing. You have absolutely nothing in common with the great minds of the last century, so don't even pretend that you do.

Awww, how is that keyboard crusader going for you Dorkshire? Atleast my greatest achievement isn't trying to be the Internet Tough Guy

At least he goes for the ball, not the player.

[Jingthing]

But not OUTDATED any more than European, Asian, African, North or South American or even Bovine and Primate. The point being that many words are DATED but not OUTDATED or offensive.

Sorry, I actually don't follow you. But I will say this -- if you happen to be in the U.S.A. don't refer to Asian people as Orientals unless you want people to think you're clueless. Now, in reality, I haven't lived in the U.S.A. for a long time so I am clueless about a lot of changes there. But not sure why someone would INTENTIONALLY want to reveal that if they know better. As I said before, even when I was a boy Oriental was mostly used by out of touch people, and Negro was mostly used by racists but too timid to say the N word in current company.

Also I have never suggested that U.S.A. usage is universal. Of course it isn't.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Jingthing

[DrDave]

Sorry, I actually don't follow you. But I will say this -- if you happen to be in the U.S.A. don't refer to Asian people as Orientals unless you want people to think you're clueless. Now, in reality, I haven't lived in the U.S.A. for a long time so I am clueless about a lot of changes there. But not sure why someone would INTENTIONALLY want to reveal that if they know better. As I said before, even when I was a boy Oriental was mostly used by out of touch people, and Negro was mostly used by racists but too timid to say the N word in current company.

Also I have never suggested that U.S.A. usage is universal. Of course it isn't.

In the US, the term "oriental" is currently used by older people because that's what they grew up with. I don't think that any malice or disrespect is meant.

I think that you're probably about the same age as me. Do you remember the original name of Northwest Airlines? How about the UNCF? I believe that the UNCF still exists.

Unless you grew up in the 70s or later, you would know that the word "negro" was commonly used in the mainstream media, from newspaper stories to TV newscasts, to books written by "african americans". It most definitely wasn't a term used mostly by racists, as you suggest.

[Berkshire]

It's an outdated word, referring to an outdated concept - that white people were the most important, and the world revolved around them.

I can see that some here haven't quite moved on from that era.

Please start making a list (medicine, technology etc etc etc) of all the great achievements arabs, blacks and latinos have given to us the last century and then make same list of what white have given to the humanity... i know this is shocking for a SJW but you might find that the "non-white" list quite short.

Wow, here's a guy trying to take credit for other people's achievements because they may have the same skin color as him. Here's a more relevant question: what have YOU given to humanity? So essentially, you're the same as these "arabs, blacks and latinos" that you're criticizing. You have absolutely nothing in common with the great minds of the last century, so don't even pretend that you do.

Awww, how is that keyboard crusader going for you Dorkshire? Atleast my greatest achievement isn't trying to be the Internet Tough Guy

As usual, trying to deflect. It must really annoy you that I'm always right and you're always wrong. Chin up old boy.

[Jingthing]

Sorry, I actually don't follow you. But I will say this -- if you happen to be in the U.S.A. don't refer to Asian people as Orientals unless you want people to think you're clueless. Now, in reality, I haven't lived in the U.S.A. for a long time so I am clueless about a lot of changes there. But not sure why someone would INTENTIONALLY want to reveal that if they know better. As I said before, even when I was a boy Oriental was mostly used by out of touch people, and Negro was mostly used by racists but too timid to say the N word in current company.

Also I have never suggested that U.S.A. usage is universal. Of course it isn't.

In the US, the term "oriental" is currently used by older people because that's what they grew up with. I don't think that any malice or disrespect is meant.

I think that you're probably about the same age as me. Do you remember the original name of Northwest Airlines? How about the UNCF? I believe that the UNCF still exists.

Unless you grew up in the 70s or later, you would know that the word "negro" was commonly used in the mainstream media, from newspaper stories to TV newscasts, to books written by "african americans". It most definitely wasn't a term used mostly by racists, as you suggest.

Well, not sure I disagree. I never really thought it was a slur. But it's clear that modern Asian Americans don't like it and I don't see any problem with the word being phased out, which indeed has mostly already happened.

When I was a boy, ALREADY young people weren't saying Oriental! It was mostly old people even then. So by now it is massively dated.

Northwest Orient airlines ... so what, I see no meaning in that point.

As far as Negro in the 70s. No, that was not my experience. I grew up in a heavily black city (before people said African Americans). It was not used. Often the people that did use it were REDNECKS that would often pronounce it NIGRA.

Negro is now more like a mild slur. Black people of course sometimes use it IRONICALLY, but non-blacks should avoid. Usage now reminds me somewhat of how anti-gay people make a point of never saying gay. They always insist on saying homosexual. Different though as homosexual is still a perfectly proper word but it's often used in context as CODE for political purposes.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Jingthing

[connda]

Farangs are the most racist people in the world. They invented these derogatory terms as a form of oppression towards other races. There are no other racial groups other than the whites out there who formed such hate groups like the KKK, white supremacist groups, skinheads, etc. Whites oppressed the blacks the most so the whites are now referred as cracker honkey donkeys. Someone told me that white people are like crap because you see them and it everywhere in the world.

Yo esa, you be right on man! Them gringos are a bunch of racist haters, plus they ruin perfectly good tacos with -- Sour Cream!!! Only a white person would eff-up a taco with sour cream hombre!

[DrDave]

In the US, the term "oriental" is currently used by older people because that's what they grew up with. I don't think that any malice or disrespect is meant.

I think that you're probably about the same age as me. Do you remember the original name of Northwest Airlines? How about the UNCF? I believe that the UNCF still exists.

Unless you grew up in the 70s or later, you would know that the word "negro" was commonly used in the mainstream media, from newspaper stories to TV newscasts, to books written by "african americans". It most definitely wasn't a term used mostly by racists, as you suggest.

Well, not sure I disagree. I never really thought it was a slur. But it's clear that modern Asian Americans don't like it and I don't see any problem with the word being phased out, which indeed has mostly already happened.

When I was a boy, ALREADY young people weren't saying Oriental! It was mostly old people even then. So by now it is massively dated.

Northwest Orient airlines ... so what, I see no meaning in that point.

As far as Negro in the 70s. No, that was not my experience. I grew up in a heavily black city (before people said African Americans). It was not used. Often the people that did use it were REDNECKS that would often pronounce it NIGRA.

Negro is now more like a mild slur. Black people of course sometimes use it IRONICALLY, but non-blacks should avoid. Usage now reminds me somewhat of how anti-gay people make a point of never saying gay. They always insist on saying homosexual. Different though as homosexual is still a perfectly proper word but it's often used in context as CODE for political purposes.

I think we've had different personal experiences.

I personally know several Asian business owners in the US who have the word "oriental" as part of their company names, as well as in their marketing materials and signage. These are business that are 20 years old or less. Why would someone who be be offended by the word use it in their day to day business operations? In a previous post, I mentioned the number of registered businesses in Florida with names containing the word "oriental". We're not talking small numbers here, and probably 95%+ are owned by Asians.

One thing that I've noticed living in most regions of the US at one time or another, is that terminology is often different across regions. For example, the terms "orient" and "oriental" continue to be frequently used on the East Coast, while rarely used on the West Coast.

As for Northwest Orient Airlines, my point (maybe somewhat obtuse) was that one of the largest airlines in the world was still using the word "Orient" to denote Asia as late as 1988 or 1989.

My experience with the word "Negro" goes back to growing up in the 60s with mainstream newspaper, and TV news in the cities of NYC and Chicago. It was very commonplace, as the terms "black" and "african american" had not yet fallen into fashion. Maybe it was different in other parts of the country, as you've indicated. But still in 2016, there's the UNCF (United Negro College Fund), which is one of the largest minority education sponsorship and scholarship organizations in the world. I wonder if they'll now feel compelled to change their name.

Finally, your point about the words "homosexual" and "gay" is very interesting. Here's a situation where the original meaning of two words can apparently no longer be used. The word "gay" originally meant happy, joyous and/or carefree. It can no longer be used to describe those feelings, as the word has now somehow transformed its meaning to "homosexual". And, in a strange twist, the word "homosexual" is now associated with some covert derogatory intent. What a very strange path our language has taken.

[Asheron]

Please start making a list (medicine, technology etc etc etc) of all the great achievements arabs, blacks and latinos have given to us the last century and then make same list of what white have given to the humanity... i know this is shocking for a SJW but you might find that the "non-white" list quite short.

Wow, here's a guy trying to take credit for other people's achievements because they may have the same skin color as him. Here's a more relevant question: what have YOU given to humanity? So essentially, you're the same as these "arabs, blacks and latinos" that you're criticizing. You have absolutely nothing in common with the great minds of the last century, so don't even pretend that you do.

Awww, how is that keyboard crusader going for you Dorkshire? Atleast my greatest achievement isn't trying to be the Internet Tough Guy

As usual, trying to deflect. It must really annoy you that I'm always right and you're always wrong. Chin up old boy.

Damn, you got an ego "YUUGGEERRRR" than Trump

[Jingthing]

In the US, the term "oriental" is currently used by older people because that's what they grew up with. I don't think that any malice or disrespect is meant.

I think that you're probably about the same age as me. Do you remember the original name of Northwest Airlines? How about the UNCF? I believe that the UNCF still exists.

Unless you grew up in the 70s or later, you would know that the word "negro" was commonly used in the mainstream media, from newspaper stories to TV newscasts, to books written by "african americans". It most definitely wasn't a term used mostly by racists, as you suggest.

Well, not sure I disagree. I never really thought it was a slur. But it's clear that modern Asian Americans don't like it and I don't see any problem with the word being phased out, which indeed has mostly already happened.

When I was a boy, ALREADY young people weren't saying Oriental! It was mostly old people even then. So by now it is massively dated.

Northwest Orient airlines ... so what, I see no meaning in that point.

As far as Negro in the 70s. No, that was not my experience. I grew up in a heavily black city (before people said African Americans). It was not used. Often the people that did use it were REDNECKS that would often pronounce it NIGRA.

Negro is now more like a mild slur. Black people of course sometimes use it IRONICALLY, but non-blacks should avoid. Usage now reminds me somewhat of how anti-gay people make a point of never saying gay. They always insist on saying homosexual. Different though as homosexual is still a perfectly proper word but it's often used in context as CODE for political purposes.

I think we've had different personal experiences.

I personally know several Asian business owners in the US who have the word "oriental" as part of their company names, as well as in their marketing materials and signage. These are business that are 20 years old or less. Why would someone who be be offended by the word use it in their day to day business operations? In a previous post, I mentioned the number of registered businesses in Florida with names containing the word "oriental". We're not talking small numbers here, and probably 95%+ are owned by Asians.

One thing that I've noticed living in most regions of the US at one time or another, is that terminology is often different across regions. For example, the terms "orient" and "oriental" continue to be frequently used on the East Coast, while rarely used on the West Coast.

As for Northwest Orient Airlines, my point (maybe somewhat obtuse) was that one of the largest airlines in the world was still using the word "Orient" to denote Asia as late as 1988 or 1989.

My experience with the word "Negro" goes back to growing up in the 60s with mainstream newspaper, and TV news in the cities of NYC and Chicago. It was very commonplace, as the terms "black" and "african american" had not yet fallen into fashion. Maybe it was different in other parts of the country, as you've indicated. But still in 2016, there's the UNCF (United Negro College Fund), which is one of the largest minority education sponsorship and scholarship organizations in the world. I wonder if they'll now feel compelled to change their name.

Finally, your point about the words "homosexual" and "gay" is very interesting. Here's a situation where the original meaning of two words can apparently no longer be used. The word "gay" originally meant happy, joyous and/or carefree. It can no longer be used to describe those feelings, as the word has now somehow transformed its meaning to "homosexual". And, in a strange twist, the word "homosexual" is now associated with some covert derogatory intent. What a very strange path our language has taken.

Yes, we're not on the same page.

Clearly.

Do you think there would have been a unanimous bipartisan vote in the U.S. congress (that's a lot of people, and many are right wing rednecks) who would have voted to ban Oriental from government documents if there was any real controversy about this?

The Oriental businesses you're talking about I reckon are often restaurants. So they say Oriental Food.

Orientals in the context of the ban is about calling PEOPLE orientals. As in Oriental ethnicity.

Go ahead and keep using it. It's no big deal, it's not really a slur, but it's out of date.

Everyone knows about the college fund name and the NAACP. Absurd irrelevancies. If they keep those names it's because they were historic. You shouldn't called black people Negros and Colored and I know you know that. I reckon you're just playing games to be argumentative and advocate for the "anti-PC" POV.

As far as homosexual, that is really only about the word when there is a very clear anti-gay political context to it. It really isn't a problematical word otherwise. For example if some hater goes on t.v. and says something like ... those homosexuals are recruiting out children, there is an implied intention of DISRESPECT in using that word instead of gay. The subtext is that we so much hate the gay rights movement that we wouldn't even call it by it's name. This is well known. There is also a TONE that anti-gay haters often use when they say homosexual to insult. True English isn't a tonal language but we do use tone to communicate. Of they will draw out the word:

HO

MO

SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

UAL

I know you've heard this.

Strange path of words? Come on, now. Anyone with a basic understanding of language knows that usage changes a lot over time. Nothing strange about it. I'm aware of the obnoxious anti-gay argument that the gays "stole" the word. That's ridiculous. The usage just changed naturally over time. The word still has the other meaning when you can tell in the CONTEXT. True people don't use it much. Nobody is really stopping them. Perhaps they're embarrassed.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Jingthing

[Howitzer]

Surely the replacement for Oriental should be 'East Asian' to distinguish them from South Asians and West Asians. Otherwise how can we tell our Chinks from our Pakis from our Arabs?

If you're going to allow racial descrptions, then they need to be precise enough to describe perceived racial differences.

How does it work for non-Americans? 'The plaintiff was a foreign Asian-American gentleman of US nationality'?

Refusing to allow calling a spade a spade will hamper more than just the landscape-gardening industry. Perhaps it would be easier and less prejudicial to use numbers for races, rather than descriptions; but who would ne number one? Or Number Six - I am not a number. Similarly if we used letters - even Greek letters; I am sure lots of us would like to be considered Alpha males. I think it would be better if we assigned some less prejorative or sequential term: "Suspect a was an Olive, while suspect b was a Magnolia, the remaining suspects were a Primrose and Mahogany"

I think we should invite Dulux to advise us on racial descriptors

Actually oriental denotes anything eastern since it is from the latin word for east and that includes western asia like iran/afghanistan/even turkey.

The words oriental rug surely doesn't mean a rug from china/japan/korea does it?

I don't know why americans only chose to group east asians as orientals when the term means anyone asian. I guess they judge race due to physical appearance and some iranians look "white" as in italian type of white. Then again wasn't it the west that grouped asia/europe as it is today and the grouping is at the turkish eastern side as asia.

[berybert]

If you find a term that people dont find insulting or rude, please let me know as there cant be many left that are usable.

[Freakin Musashi]

It's outdated and not accurate. The Asians I know are not "insulted" by it. When they are translated to Asian native languages, "Asian" and "Oriental" usually become the same word anyway. So they will never know how we are talking about them.

I believe most of them refer to Westerners as "hairy barbarians" and we don't choose to be insulted...

[Jingthing]

It's not about translations. It's about English words in an English speaking nation.

[johnatong]

It's not about translations. It's about English words in an English speaking nation.

Which is rapidly becoming a Spanish speaking nation ?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/29/us-second-biggest-spanish-speaking-country

Perhaps that is why Mr Trump wants a wall ?

[smokie36]

I long for the day I am described at work as largely ornamental.

[arunsakda]

That's funny. One of my roommates in college called Asian chicks "Ornamentals".

A Korean American Frat boy, he had no interest in them and chased blondies exclusively.

[Jingthing]

I'm pretty sure the phrase "rice queen" is also banned from U.S. government documents ...

[Freakin Musashi]

We have a term for a western guy with an Asian gal: "John and Yoko".

A western gal with an Asian guy is a "Bruce and Linda".

[RedQualia]

Perhaps read the review comments, if not actually buy the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Orientalism-Edward-W-Said/dp/039474067X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465062563&sr=1-1&keywords=edward+said+orientalism

[Roadman]

Back to the topic, even when I was a little kid in the U.S. in an area with probably less than ONE percent Asian population (I was friends with all of them in my school), before Thai restaurants, before people knew what PHO was much less how to pronounce it, and before Americans seriously considering eating raw fish ... only CLUELESS usually older people said Orientals!

This was before people even said Asians.

The more aware referred to people more specifically, such as Chinese, Korean, or Japanese.

"The more aware...."

My daughter paid her way through uni working in "Asian" restaurants. Being thai she worked in predominately thai restaurants. She tried working in a Chinese restaurant and it only lasted two shifts as the other Chinese staff kept speaking to her in Chinese. She then tried a Japanese restaurant but again the Japanese staff were only speaking to her in Japanese. Granted I am aware but still only get it right some of the time. But Asians themselves cannot pick some of them apart until language enters the fray.

Oh and I always considered "oriental" insulting.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Roadman

[AZBill]

Pay no attention to all the liberal PC BS in America. It's just stupid and a way for the liberals to justify their own immoral and irresponsible behavior. Big push back on this nonsense right now.