Start a mixed farm in Isaan

[Mr Kie]

On 29/12/2560 at 8:44 PM, Latis said:

That's good news that you're selling your produce at a market in Yosothon.  Are you using chemical fertilizers or have you thought about going organic?

 

no artificial fertilizer or chemical being used here, we just using cow manure or chicken manure and compost and now we have already applied for the organic certificate, expected to get it within end of 2018.

[Mr Kie]

On 29/12/2560 at 8:45 PM, Latis said:

One question on planting trees, do you know where I can find a guide to what trees are suited to Isaan climate, so I don't waste more money planting trees that just can't cut it in the climate and soil>?

I guess you know someone living in Ubon and might be good to ask people there what type of tree are growing better. or perhaps you can ask to the local agricultural officer. for me i don't know that much, i found after i tried growing it. http://www.ubonratchathani.doae.go.th/ 

[Mr Kie]

price of eggs is going down, to compete with conventional we need to sell brand not just an egg. so we are now applying to get organic certificate, GAP certificate. at the same time we also trying to promote what we are doing showing customers how we're growing food etc. we take this poster every time when we selling at the market. 

[Mr Kie]

  

[grollies]

Good on you Mr Kie, even everyday Thai folk are starting to understand organic.

 

I'm sure all here wish you well on the certification and all the best for 2561/2018!

[cobbler]

Funny thing is. Farming in Thai untill western chemical companies pushed their poisons on thailssnd,was all organic farming. It wasnt that long ago either. I know some thais going back to using gooed old cow shit on rice now. You can see the difference. Much nicer

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[cobbler]

I've learned something new today - never hear of hair sheep before. 

Dorper. They have hair not wool [emoji16]

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[cobbler]

thanks, I just love sheep and they all eating grass mostly. just having them as hobby  

A reason dorper sheep would be better than goats is this. Goats eat possibly most things including plants. Sheep will eat grass not expensive plants. I feel you are making a good choice. [emoji106][emoji106]

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[JungleBiker]

On 15/02/2018 at 2:09 PM, cobbler said:

 I know some thais going back to using gooed old cow shit on rice now. You can see the difference. Much nicer
 

 

But if all farmers were to go organic I doubt there would be enough shit to go around. Food production would decline and the less well off would go hungry. Organic food is a luxury for the few.  

[CLW]

 
But if all farmers were to go organic I doubt there would be enough shit to go around. Food production would decline and the less well off would go hungry. Organic food is a luxury for the few.  

That is a lie implanted from the chemical industry...

[farmerjo]

Maybe a new thread should be started for the cow manure debate and let Mr Kie get on getting on.

[Mr Kie]

On 15/2/2561 at 2:42 PM, cobbler said:

A reason dorper sheep would be better than goats is this. Goats eat possibly most things including plants. Sheep will eat grass not expensive plants. I feel you are making a good choice.

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exactly!!! they eat grasses 

[Mr Kie]

On 16/2/2561 at 7:33 PM, farmerjo said:

Maybe a new thread should be started for the cow manure debate and let Mr Kie get on getting on.

cow manure is not always necessary....there're more things you can add to your land like compost of fresh grass (rich in nitrogen) chicken manure, even we can use worm casting  

[Mr Kie]

easy growing plant...tasty and healthy fruit 

[kickstart]

On 19/02/2018 at 9:34 PM, Mr Kie said:

cow manure is not always necessary....there're more things you can add to your land like compost of fresh grass (rich in nitrogen) chicken manure, even we can use worm casting  

Using a compost of fresh  grass ,would be ok , if you can find some fresh grass , you could  grow some grass, feed some to some livestock ,and make some in to compost ,but on a limited land grass would  take a lot of space , that could be put to better use ,you would have to use a good quality  grass seed variety ,or Nappier grass, some  Para Grass,Yar Con ,in Thai from the hedge bottom would not do .

Grass would have to be chopped, most of the nitrogen would be lost composting prosses, an inoculant would help preserve some nitrogen.

Of all of the manures pig, cattle, chicken, chicken manure  has the highest nitrogen content ,but it is best kept for a while , fresh chicken manure can be to strong  for some plants, cattle manure can be used fresh ,but having seen a lot being bagged up in cattle yards , and depending on the cattle yard they can be a lot of soil mixed in  with the manure.

A green manure of say sun hemp,or mung beans, both legumes, would do a good job , and I would say would put more nitrogen back in to the soil than a compost. 

[Mr Kie]

On 6/3/2561 at 9:08 PM, kickstart said:

Using a compost of fresh  grass ,would be ok , if you can find some fresh grass , you could  grow some grass, feed some to some livestock ,and make some in to compost ,but on a limited land grass would  take a lot of space , that could be put to better use ,you would have to use a good quality  grass seed variety ,or Nappier grass, some  Para Grass,Yar Con ,in Thai from the hedge bottom would not do .

Grass would have to be chopped, most of the nitrogen would be lost composting prosses, an inoculant would help preserve some nitrogen.

Of all of the manures pig, cattle, chicken, chicken manure  has the highest nitrogen content ,but it is best kept for a while , fresh chicken manure can be to strong  for some plants, cattle manure can be used fresh ,but having seen a lot being bagged up in cattle yards , and depending on the cattle yard they can be a lot of soil mixed in  with the manure.

A green manure of say sun hemp,or mung beans, both legumes, would do a good job , and I would say would put more nitrogen back in to the soil than a compost. 

the most easiest thing to grow is grass you even don't need to do anything just provide the sunlight which is more than enough, the most cheapest energy on earth. then use grass for making compost and that will be more nutrient than cow manure. in cow manure all nutrient has already been taken out. this is not comparable to chicken manure because it has protein content more than 17% and most of the time it not being utilized all by animals. 

 

[Speedo1968]

5 minutes ago, Mr Kie said:

the most easiest thing to grow is grass you even don't need to do anything just provide the sunlight which is more than enough, the most cheapest energy on earth. then use grass for making compost and that will be more nutrient than cow manure. in cow manure all nutrient has already been taken out. this is not comparable to chicken manure because it has protein content more than 17% and most of the time it not being utilized all by animals. 

 

You could try growing duckweed or even grass ( known as green fodder ) indoors.

I tried this in the 1970's in South America, now it is even grown in bulk on farms in Australia / US etc.  Duckweed is grown in India.   In Thailand duckweed grows fast especially in drainage ponds for duck houses but is seen as a nuisance rather than useful.

Grass ( green fodder ) is used as fodder for all kinds of livestock, can be low cost to set up and will give you grass all year round, for both livestock ( if you have them ) and for making your compost.   Easy to harvest, around 7 - 10 days.

[kickstart]

7 hours ago, Mr Kie said:

the most easiest thing to grow is grass you even don't need to do anything just provide the sunlight which is more than enough, the most cheapest energy on earth. then use grass for making compost and that will be more nutrient than cow manure. in cow manure all nutrient has already been taken out. this is not comparable to chicken manure because it has protein content more than 17% and most of the time it not being utilized all by animals. 

 

2

www.agronext.iastate.edu/.../WhatAreAverageManureNutrientAnalysisV.

I take it you have not grown grass in a tropical country, not like your back lawn in your home country, timing has to be right sow /plant during the rainy season, you could  grow it now but it will require constant watering ,all right if you have the water, pump sprinkler system, etc  and then fertilizer, you will find you will not have the grass compost when you need it , grass  not growing .

And what grass,?Ruzi, Mulato II, Guinie, good grasses when young, but do not like wet fields ie old rice paddies, Paspalum Atraturm can tolerate waterlogging, but ages quickly soon get course and difficult to compost.

And if you think that you can just  cut ,chop, compost your nice fresh grass  wrong ,the grass will be to wet ,you compost it and will just rot , it will need willing  for 18-24 hours, all to do with Dry Matter of the grass

when grass is to wet you get  anaerobic bacteria  that will not make compost ,just rot the grass .

As for cattle manure the quality will depend on what the animal eats, Thai beef  cattle out grazing heage bottoms their manure will be of poor quality, but dairy cattle on a high plain  diet they manure will be of better quality , you will be surprised how much nutrients are left in the dung after the digestion  prosses

.We rear  a few cattle and grow 1 1/2 rie of Nappier grass .last year we made almost 10 of silage, grass was wilted  for 30 hours ,so that would be about  13 ton  of fresh grass ,we applied less than 2 bags of 46% urea fertilizer or about 200 units ,most grass needs 300 units to grow well ,also  we applied a lot of cattal manuar ,we say it was the manuar that made the grass grow.

Link at the top is for the Manure Nutrient Analysis for livestok manure's.

 

[Speedo1968]

Ahh - memories - the sweet smell of silage when cutting in a UK winter - 1960's.

It stays with you always, cutting grass with a scythe, turning by hand with a pitchfork, moving to silage clamp made of old railway wooden sleepers, rolling with a tractor, adding a touch of molasses, covering with sheeting and old tyres, In Winter cutting with a double handed knife ( cannot remember what they were called ), feeding to cows,

The grass was sown using a seed box wheelbarrow style.

Add to the smell of silage was also brewers grains.

Have seen a few tipsy cows in my time.

Also some floating ( bloated ) cows, in those days a penknife always came in handy.

[kickstart]

Sometimes when I open a bag of our Nappier silage it reminds me of the silage we use to make ,but we had  loader and used a forage box ,we feed brewers grains ,but we did not have any tipsy cows, we did once  have  a pot ale syrup,  a by-product of the whiskey industry, we feed brewers  grains here, comes from Bier Chang or Leo 82 baht per 40 kg bag but only 28 % dry matter.

On a farm before  that we made hay lifting hay bales with a pitch fork on to a trailer then unloading them into a barn ,then on another farm we had a tractor a loader to lift the bales made life a lot easyer ,but still had to unload by hand in to a Dutch barn 12 bay barn 1200 bales to a  bay ,and then a large stack of straw  bales, about 2000 stacked  in the yard .

Back to the topic .when I had the gardens  I use to get the lawn cuttings and make some compost, but it never was good compost I think the heap was not airtight enough, and a lot of the grass was to damp.

Where my mother lived the council gave house holders plastic  compost bins, ider was to try and cut down on garden waste going into landfill, encouging  people to make compost, most were filled with grass  cuttings .and a few weeds and some veg waste it was grass in the top and compost out the bottom ,householders were encouged  to add an compst maker, some compost made was ok but a lot did not make why I do not know ,only thing I can think of not the right type bactiar /enzines to make good compost .

So I think the op is going to have a job on to make some grass compost, try using bin liner type plastic bags if that works to dig a compost pit and cover it well with plastic sheet plus, some old car tires on top like speedo 1968 said, and see what happens.

[CLW]

the most easiest thing to grow is grass you even don't need to do anything just provide the sunlight which is more than enough, the most cheapest energy on earth. then use grass for making compost and that will be more nutrient than cow manure. in cow manure all nutrient has already been taken out. this is not comparable to chicken manure because it has protein content more than 17% and most of the time it not being utilized all by animals. 
 

If you are talking about grass cut that you can take or get somewhere for free it is worth a try making compost.
However if you grow grass for making compost it's kind of counter productive because you would need fertiliser for growth or have access to vast natural grassland.

[kickstart]

10 hours ago, CLW said:

If you are talking about grass cut that you can take or get somewhere for free it is worth a try making compost.
However if you grow grass for making compost it's kind of counter productive because you would need fertiliser for growth or have access to vast natural grassland.

Good point ,but your free  grass would not be good quality grass ,ie Para Grass ,Yar -Con in Thai good when young,(not a bad feed for cattle ,and you would have to get they first before the locale cattle ), and like some other Thai natural grasses ,but soon as it gets old quality drops stems get tough even when chopped, making it difficult to compost, it will compost, but it will take a long time .

The op could grow some Nappier grass not a lot of lands would be needed, but as you said it would need fertilizer, and chopping finely to make compost, Nappier stems being tough.would it be worth it.   

[Speedo1968]

Re - "Growing Green Fodder". i.e. for feeding livestock ( surplus for compost ), please see my posts / videos of June 20th 2016, especially the low cost ones from Africa.

If Thailand is going to become a drier climate and with weather certainly becoming less predictable then low cost systems may be of benefit.    The land not used for growing grasses could perhaps be put to other uses.

If you could find supplies of good quality whole grain rice, soy, even corn at reasonable prices it could work here, I think.

[djayz]

On 03/06/2016 at 2:16 AM, Lou Provencaou said:

date palm trees

Hi Lou! I know you posted here about 2 years ago, but I'm reading through the thread again and I noticed your reply re the date palm trees. Out of curiosity, do you grow dates here and if so, how are they doing? I always assumed they needed really sandy conditions to thrive, might be wrong of course. 

I have grown a few from seed, but they all died after a year or two. 

Just curious. I love dates! 

[Mr Kie]

sorry i'm not native speaker so not sure if you all understand my point. i'm not talking about making silage and feed to the cow but i talking about using grass or weed that are naturally grown on your land and i use it for making compost and use it as fertilizer. 

and i said the compost made from grass or weed is better quality than using cow manure that eating just only grass.

[Mr Kie]

Another point i concern about Thai farmers is they don't understand the balance between input and output for example. a lot of Thai farmers growing cassava and sell it for 1.5 THB/kg

 

there are two types of farmers who are growing cassava.... one using fertilizer (organic or artificial) and second one don't use anything because the land quality is just perfect.  

those farmers never think about the actual input and output so they just growing cassava because it's easy to grow and less input(low cost)

 

in the real world ==> they are all loosing money.... by adding high cost (adding fertilizer) or by the fact that the land constandly loosing nutrient over the period of time. in the long term they have to add a lot of either organic or artificial fertilizer to compensate with the losses. 

 

So my opinion growing something else that has more value like mulberry 1 kg/200THB, i think it is much better than growing cassava because.....

      1. you know for sure input will be a lot less. 

      2. transportation cost is a lot less 

      3. you get a lot higher price per kg. you can then buy whatever you want to put on your land (organic/artificial fertilizer) 

[CLW]

Another point i concern about Thai farmers is they don't understand the balance between input and output for example.

Yes. That's why farmers get poor and agricultural companies get rich.
I wish someone out there would tell the farmers that the products the big companies are selling with false promises.
They don't do it because they are kind and care about the farmers.
They just care about their profits.
And with a lazy and non-existent extension work or government activities to support farmers it's so easy for them here to supply the farmers from seeds to fertiliser and pesticides. If they don't have money they'll offer loans or late payments.

[CLW]

Another point i concern about Thai farmers is they don't understand the balance between input and output for example. a lot of Thai farmers growing cassava and sell it for 1.5 THB/kg
 
there are two types of farmers who are growing cassava.... one using fertilizer (organic or artificial) and second one don't use anything because the land quality is just perfect.  
those farmers never think about the actual input and output so they just growing cassava because it's easy to grow and less input(low cost)
 
in the real world ==> they are all loosing money.... by adding high cost (adding fertilizer) or by the fact that the land constandly loosing nutrient over the period of time. in the long term they have to add a lot of either organic or artificial fertilizer to compensate with the losses. 
 
So my opinion growing something else that has more value like mulberry 1 kg/200THB, i think it is much better than growing cassava because.....
      1. you know for sure input will be a lot less. 
      2. transportation cost is a lot less 
      3. you get a lot higher price per kg. you can then buy whatever you want to put on your land (organic/artificial fertilizer) 

Another example, basic soil tests are free for farmers. But hardly anyone uses this service. Instead they apply fertiliser like they always did or even more stupid, the salesman tells them.
What a waste of money, resources etc...

[farmerjo]

Every plant has a nutrient valve it sucks out of the soil from seed to harvesting.

The problem with organic fertilizers is do you really know what your giving or putting back.

A chemical fertilizer will provide the right amount of units depending on what blend you want.

[kickstart]

8 hours ago, Mr Kie said:

sorry i'm not native speaker so not sure if you all understand my point. i'm not talking about making silage and feed to the cow but i talking about using grass or weed that are naturally grown on your land and i use it for making compost and use it as fertilizer. 

and i said the compost made from grass or weed is better quality than using cow manure that eating just only grass.

If you want to make good compost the raw ingredients have to be of some quality, if you put in poor raw ingredients, you will get a poor compost I think I have said before, making compost you will lose nutrients in the composting process and the heat produced will destroy some of the nutrients.

Something I learned a long time ago weeds in a compost heap, take a lot of breaking down, and if any that have any seeds on them, depending on the weed the seeds, they will remain dormant, until put back on the land and they will grow again giving more problems, 

I still say cattle manure is better than compost on a nutrient basis, but if the compost has a lot of long fiber in it that will do the land some good,help aerate the land, encouraging the microbes to work and get some life back into the land.and improve the quality of the land, but on an NPK base cattle manure would be better.