Bringing Thaksin To Account

[marshbags]

The army plans to put the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc) back in full charge of security affairs, with a new structure modelled on the US Homeland Security Department . Army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) said all security agencies will come under the umbrella of the new Isoc structure.

Security supervision power, which is swinging back to the military, will include keeping track of supporters of the previous administration who may be stirring up trouble for the interim government.

<deleted>!?

Modelled on US Homeland Security!?

Lovely what all you can push through when there is a constitution you wrote yourself, and a docile handpicked parliament.

Unfortunately, any form of authoritarianism is very easy to justify in the eyes of the world today thanks to the US, which is seen as the greatest democracy on earth, introducing its own overt authoritarian measures.

Slightly off topic it is interesting in Thailand to view any military statements on nation within the historical context of how Thailand has developed since the thirties, or even how Thailand has developed since its inception as a nation.

Oh well, i should have expected the intended paragraph to be viewed would be ignored / missed.

The last paragraph in the part quote is the relevant part, which is to show how yet more influence on the enforcment / supervision of the the drug cleansing programme and how he was able to carry out his vendetta without any meaningful oposition, it,s objective.

( he hand picked all the sub commanders as well so oposition from them was non existent )

Thaksin was accountable as CEO of the government and just in case any more doubters question his influence in carrying it out, he was also director of ISOC which complimented his authoritarian attitude towards Thai society and the so called drug cleansing in particular..

So, just in case you missed it........................................................

Quote:-

Previously, the Isoc had been supervised by the army before being transferred to the Prime Minister's Office, with deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra acting as its director during his five years in the premiership.

Unquote.

Thaksin may not have written the present constitution C.P. but he certainly made it suit ALL his objectives via abuse and manipulation, along with the laws therein.

As for a docile, handpicked parliament..........

He,s not known as the " Puppet Master " for nothing.

Just to keep this within the framework of the topic, without his influence as such, again no way could he have continued his war / slaughter of the UNCONVICTED victims.

Other than that no further comment from me on the role of the ISOC as for as i,m concerned, not on this thread anyway, unless of course it is relevant.

marshbags

Edited December 1, 2006 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

As for a docile, handpicked parliament..........

Maybe you should go a few posts back, where i have argued the mechanics of the drugwar, and how not just Thaksin is to be held responsible if there is to be a reform of the system.

As to docile parliament, Thaksin managed his own party by playing out each fraction against the other, and giving all fractions some. Well, until the sale of ShinCorp and it all went haywire with Chamlong switching sides finally.

You can't only blame Thaksin though for the opposition having no teeth. Remember the 2005 elections with Banjat being leader of the Democrats? One of the main reasons for the embarrasingly bad loss of the Democrats was that Banjat's only policy was begging the electorate to give him votes so there could be a opposition. As a result Banjat vacated his position in favour of Abhisit, who now lets the retired Chuan make political statements.

The Democrats have completely failed to campaign on a platform of policies, while Thaksin did so. And still, the Democrats have yet to deliver a strong message of policy.

It is very frightening how the military puts itself back into positions of abslute power presently. People here appear to have very short memories, and believe the sweet words and propaganda of the present ruling elite, and neglect that the key members of this clique have no clean record either, their innocence in '92 only supported by their own words on not a public enquiry. And if you look at the last 72 years of Thai history, political meddling of the military has mostly left a trail of blood.

Even the guilty military officers of the Human Rights violations under the Thaksin government, such as Tak Bai are still free. Why do you think is that so?

Edited December 1, 2006 by ColPyat

[sriracha john]

Getting down to the nitty-gritty now...

Meeting called on drug war killings

Surayud likely to chair it; activists (and Marshbags ) delighted

Human rights activists yesterday hailed the prospect of Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont chairing a meeting next week on extra-judicial killings during the war on drugs under the Thaksin Shinawatra government. Former senator Kraisak Choonhavan said no other prime minister had shown an interest in dealing with breaches of human rights. But he stressed that the task required no less than changing the mindset of state officials who had been ''programmed'' to kill. ''This is worthier than an apology. It shows he is serious,'' Mr Kraisak said. ''But I am still concerned because Mr Thaksin seems to have put state officials into murder mode without caring about human rights. ''The PM's task is to change that way of thinking. If he succeeds it would be a major change, making history,''Mr Kraisak added. Justice Minister Chanchai Likhitjitta said he approached Gen Surayud to chair the meeting at the Department of Special Investigation on Dec 8, and the prime minister promised to do so if he was not otherwise engaged. Gen Surayud earlier vowed to reopen cases of extra-judicial killings during the war on drugs from February to April 2003, and in 2005. Mr Chanchai said the mysterious murders of a couple in Khon Buri district of Nakhon Ratchasima, after they won a first-prize lottery, is expected to be the first case handled by the DSI. Mr Kraisak drew attention to the case last month when he met justice permanent secretary Jarun Pukditanakul. Addressing a forum on human rights at the October 14, 1973 memorial, Mr Kraisak deplored the Thaksin administration's heavy-handed approach to tackling problems, ranging from drugs to the southern unrest. This was estimated to have led to the deaths of 7,000-8,000 people, some by extra-judicial killing, and Mr Thaksin must be summoned for questioning and tried, Mr Kraisak said. Mr Thaksin effectively signed death warrants by issuing an order that drugs cases were considered closed only when the drug suspects were convicted, summarily executed or dead, he said. Less than 15 days after that, 586 people had been killed, he said.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/02Dec2006_news01.php

----------------------------------------------------------------

...turning it over now to the apologists and enablers for the usual Thaksin spin doctoring...

Edited December 2, 2006 by sriracha john

[marshbags]

Getting down to the nitty-gritty now...

Meeting called on drug war killings

Surayud likely to chair it; activists (and Marshbags ) delighted

Human rights activists yesterday hailed the prospect of Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont chairing a meeting next week on extra-judicial killings during the war on drugs under the Thaksin Shinawatra government. Former senator Kraisak Choonhavan said no other prime minister had shown an interest in dealing with breaches of human rights. But he stressed that the task required no less than changing the mindset of state officials who had been ''programmed'' to kill. ''This is worthier than an apology. It shows he is serious,'' Mr Kraisak said. ''But I am still concerned because Mr Thaksin seems to have put state officials into murder mode without caring about human rights. ''The PM's task is to change that way of thinking. If he succeeds it would be a major change, making history,''Mr Kraisak added. Justice Minister Chanchai Likhitjitta said he approached Gen Surayud to chair the meeting at the Department of Special Investigation on Dec 8, and the prime minister promised to do so if he was not otherwise engaged. Gen Surayud earlier vowed to reopen cases of extra-judicial killings during the war on drugs from February to April 2003, and in 2005. Mr Chanchai said the mysterious murders of a couple in Khon Buri district of Nakhon Ratchasima, after they won a first-prize lottery, is expected to be the first case handled by the DSI. Mr Kraisak drew attention to the case last month when he met justice permanent secretary Jarun Pukditanakul. Addressing a forum on human rights at the October 14, 1973 memorial, Mr Kraisak deplored the Thaksin administration's heavy-handed approach to tackling problems, ranging from drugs to the southern unrest. This was estimated to have led to the deaths of 7,000-8,000 people, some by extra-judicial killing, and Mr Thaksin must be summoned for questioning and tried, Mr Kraisak said. Mr Thaksin effectively signed death warrants by issuing an order that drugs cases were considered closed only when the drug suspects were convicted, summarily executed or dead, he said. Less than 15 days after that, 586 people had been killed, he said.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/02Dec2006_news01.php

----------------------------------------------------------------

...turning it over now to the apologists and enablers for the usual Thaksin spin doctoring...

Nice one S.J. and i particulary warm to the last part that you highlighted.

Wriggle out of this one all you doubters and yes we await the anticipated spin from Thaksins partners in crime.

Not forgetting the one track posters who still defend his innocence, which no doubt, S.J. includes in his last sentence.

When you allow for all the unknown cases and unofficial killings not only on the " Extra Judicial Killings " but all the other H.R. violations listed, the southern situation being particulary vicious and carried out in his name, this is a truly henious situation in each and every case and will, one day, BE PAID IN FULL by these evil people and their master Thaksin.

May justice be served for the poor souls of all these victims and their families.

marshbags and

Edited December 2, 2006 by marshbags

[Tony Clifton]

I wonder, what happened to that couple's lottery prize and possessions afterwards?

[marshbags]

Government spokesman Yongyuth Maiyalarp confirmed on Saturdays new Q and A radio show and i quote:-

''The prime minister has insisted on the urgency of a war on drugs, with the main focus on young people. The government will uphold the laws and human rights principles in carrying out the crackdown on drugs,''

The government will carry out it,s own version of fighting drugs and an important point made was

" They will uphold the law and human rights principals "

What a difference / contrast between this and how Thaksin and his fellow evildoers implemented their policy / murderous vendetta on the less fortunate.

For anyone who wishes to read the full article on various issues please go to the following url:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/03Dec2006_news03.php

What a contrast between " Thaksins weekly address " and the ''Government House Hotline''

marshbags

Edited December 3, 2006 by marshbags

[jumnien]

I am no defender of Thaksin's actions primarily because I have no way of knowing what they were. Recent posts have quoted the Bangkok Post and the Nation which are clearly puppets of the Democratic Party and pawns of the coup leadership. There is nothing wrong with reading these rags and I regularly do myself, quite entertaining. But any 12 year old would question the ability of their "journalists" (I use the word very, very loosely) to ascertain and translate into words anything that relates to reality. They tend to write what they are told to write or look for other work in another field.

[hammered]

I am no defender of Thaksin's actions primarily because I have no way of knowing what they were. Recent posts have quoted the Bangkok Post and the Nation which are clearly puppets of the Democratic Party and pawns of the coup leadership. There is nothing wrong with reading these rags and I regularly do myself, quite entertaining. But any 12 year old would question the ability of their "journalists" (I use the word very, very loosely) to ascertain and translate into words anything that relates to reality. They tend to write what they are told to write or look for other work in another field.

The newspapers you mention have contained articles critical of the current administration, and have previously been critical of Democrat governments over the years. It is too simplistic to say they are puppets of of the Democrats and pawns of the current government.

That aside it is worth looking at who owns the media in any country. Even the so called "free" western media do not exactly have a good record of reporting things fairly especially in recent years. The owners of media do have their own agendas and worldwide they use their organs to further their agendas. Any intelligent person should try to get information from a number of sources and then make their own mind up on issues.

[brahmburgers]

"It's ok to lie and cheat." That's the most lasting legacy of the Thaksin's 5 year rule.

This has been particularly harmful for impressionable young people. In a society that already worships accumulation of money - placing it in higher regard than responsibility, honesty, frankness, doing the right thing. The the richest (and hence the most adulated) man in Thailand, successfully bullied and bought his way to obscene levels of wealth - all the while donning the cloak of 'helping the poor.' For awhile he even literally donned a royal-looking cloak (along with a royal-looking Staff of State) and had the photo billboards plastered all over Thailand.

How long will it take to un-indoctrinate the millions of young people away from Thaksin's lessons that: (A) it's ok to cheat ( lying is acceptable © no amount of wealth is too much (D) it's ok hide money by devious means (E) it's cool to not pay taxes (F) responsibility and accountability are for wimps. .....?!?

[Grover]

spot on. leaders have got to set the right example.

[jumnien]

spot on. leaders have got to set the right example.

"It's ok to lie and cheat." That's the most lasting legacy of the Thaksin's 5 year rule.

Really guys, this stuff didn't start with Thaksin...

"I am not a crook", Richard Nixon

"I did not have sex with that woman!", Bill Clinton

Usually when one looks for the most spiritually fit of any culture one doesn't look to the politicians and their media friends....

[ColPyat]

[

Edited December 3, 2006 by ColPyat

[marshbags]

I am no defender of Thaksin's actions primarily because I have no way of knowing what they were. Recent posts have quoted the Bangkok Post and the Nation which are clearly puppets of the Democratic Party and pawns of the coup leadership. There is nothing wrong with reading these rags and I regularly do myself, quite entertaining. But any 12 year old would question the ability of their "journalists" (I use the word very, very loosely) to ascertain and translate into words anything that relates to reality. They tend to write what they are told to write or look for other work in another field.

Apologies for a longish post.

As this thread is about the Drug war of which there cannot be any dispute of Thaksins involvement due not least to own admission / boasting of what he falsely claims he / they / it achieved apart from the slaying of innocent until proved guilty victims and their families.

With kind permission for H.R.W to do so...............................

I have downloaded one of many transcripts that are available from Human Rights Watch as one independant example for your observations.

Quote:-

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH

Timeline of Thailand’s “War on Drugs”

February 2001

Prime Minister of Thailand Thaksin Shinawatra assumes office. He declares the suppression of narcotic drugs one of his “top priorities,” pledging to enforce drug trafficking laws strictly and remove barriers to drug treatment and rehabilitation.

January 14, 2003

Thaksin announces that a “war on drugs” will be waged on drug dealers, commencing the following February 1. In a speech announcing the campaign, the Prime Minister borrows a quote from a former police chief known for having orchestrated political assassinations in the 1950s: “There is nothing under the sun which the Thai police cannot do,” he says. “Because drug traders are ruthless to our children, so being ruthless back to them is not a bad thing. . . . It may be necessary to have casualties. . . . If there are deaths among traders, it’s normal.”

January 28, 2003

Thaksin issues Prime Minister’s Order 29/B.E. 2546 (2003), calling for the absolute suppression of drug trafficking by means “ranging from soft to harsh including the most absolutely severe charges subject to the situation.” He instructs police and local officials that persons charged with drug offenses should be considered “security threats.”

January 31, 2003

The evening before the “war on drugs” begins, Boonchuay Unthong and Yupin Unthong are shot and killed as they return home with their son, Jirasak, eight years old, from a local fair in Ban Rai, Damnoen Saduak district, Ratchaburi. Boonchuay had just been released after 18 months in prison on a drug offense. Witnesses describe seeing a man on the back of a motorcycle, wearing a ski mask, shoot Yupin, who was riding on the back of the family motorcycle. Jirasak hides behind a fence and watches as the gunmen walk up to Boonchuay and execute him with a shot to the head. It is subsequently discovered that Yupin and Boonchuay had been placed on a government “blacklist.”

February 1, 2003

The “war on drugs” officially begins. Four people are killed. By February 8, the death toll stands at 87.

February 16, 2003

The Ministry of the Interior announces that 596 people have been shot dead since February 1, eight of them by police in self-defense. The deaths of alleged drug dealers, both those killed by police and those killed by others, are included in a February 17 report of the Ministry of the Interior informing the government about the progress of the campaign. The government actively publicizes the deaths on state-controlled television and radio as well as in newspapers, claiming that drug dealers are killing their peers to prevent them from leaking information to authorities.

February 19, 2003

The Bangkok Post reports that the head of Thailand’s Forensic Sciences Institute, Dr. Porthip Rojanasuna, is suspicious that Royal Thai Police are not seeking the Institute’s help in differentiating so-called gangland killings from extrajudicial executions, as they did before the “war on drugs.”

February 23, 2003

Nine-year-old Chakraphan Srisa-ard is shot as police fire at a car carrying him and his mother. Police later claim that a third party fired the fatal shots.

February 24, 2003

The United Nations Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Asma Jahangir, expresses “deep concern at reports of more than 100 deaths in Thailand in connection with a crackdown on the drug trade.” Prime Minister Thaksin retorts, “Do not worry about this. The U.N. is not my father. We as a U.N. member must follow international regulations. Do not ask too much. There is no problem. They can come and investigate.”

February 26, 2003

A 16-month-old baby, “Ice,” is shot and killed in her mother’s arms by an unknown gunman in Sa Dao District, Songkhla. The mother is fatally shot as well. The killings follow the fatal shooting of the mother’s older brother, who was alleged to be involved in drug dealing. Police Lieutenant Phakdi Preechachon, the officer in charge of the investigation, reports that police assumed the mother’s and infant’s killing were gang-related because of Raiwan’s brother’s involvement in the drug trade. The killer is not found.

February 26, 2003

The Interior Ministry bans the release of statistics on drug-related deaths. More figures are later released. On March 2, 2003, police place the death toll at 1,035, including 31 drug suspects shot by officers in self-defense.

May 2003

Prime Minister Thaksin declares “victory” in the war on drugs and announces a second phase that will last until December. The Royal Thai Police announce that 2,275 people have been killed since February 1, of whom 51 were shot by police in self-defense.

August 2003

Thaksin announces that Thai security forces will “shoot to kill” when they encounter Burmese drug traffickers on Thai soil. Most methamphetamine tablets are smuggled into Thailand from neighboring Burma and, to a lesser extent, Laos.

October 2003

Thailand’s foreign minister informs the U.S. State Department that 2,593 homicide cases occurred in the country since the previous February, roughly double the normal level of about 400 homicides per month.

December 2, 2003

Thaksin again declares “victory” in the war on drugs and presents cash awards to agencies and officials who had taken part in the campaign. He claims that while drugs have not disappeared from the country, “[w]e are now in a position to declare that drugs, which formerly were a big danger to our nation, can no longer hurt us.” He announces a third, 10-month phase of the drug war intended to “maintain the strong communities and the strength of the people for the sustainability in overcoming the drug problem in every area throughout the country.”

December 15, 2003

The Royal Thai Police report 1,329 drug-related homicides (out of 1,176 separate incidents) since February 2003, of which 72 (in 58 incidents) were been killed by police.

February 2004

The U.S. State Department reports that Thailand’s human rights record has “worsened with regard to extrajudicial killings and arbitrary arrests.” The report states that “[t]here was a significiant increase in killings of criminal suspects” in 2003 and that press reports indicated that “more than 2,000 alleged drug suspects were killed during confrontations with police during a three-month war on drugs from February to April.”

February 27, 2004

Thaksin calls the United States an “annoying friend” for its human rights report and orders a new round of drug suppression, resulting in the arrest of 839 people in Bangkok in one day.

From: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/07/thaila9014.htm

Unquote.

If you wish to browse through many other forums within T.Visa i feel sure you will be updated on a multitude of Thaksins questionable ethics while he was CEO of the government and Director of ISOC.

Let me assure you we are neither pawns nor puppets of any organisation, just educated individuals who walk about with our eyes, ears and minds open for right and wrong.

He had, as such, total influence and control on all that is being currently investigated from the last 5 years.

The Extra Judicial Killings the most abhorrent followed by other Human rights issues.

As this thread is about the drugs war and all the disturbing details connected with it, i will stick to this to remain on topic.

marshbags and

Edited December 3, 2006 by marshbags

[sriracha john]

I admire the diligence you display, Marshbags, with keeping this thread on-topic and not derailing to discuss ex-American presidents or sidetracking to point out perceived slighting by the local media.

Your commitment to seeing and urging justice for the slaughtered thousands at Thaksin's direction is certainly a noble cause and very commendable.

Edited December 3, 2006 by sriracha john

[jumnien]

Marshbags, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and your words of wisdom and insight are much appreciated by all. Your one dimensional observations are exemplary in their brilliance.

[marshbags]

I admire the diligence you display, Marshbags, with keeping this thread on-topic and not derailing to discuss ex-American presidents or sidetracking to point out perceived slighting by the local media.

Your commitment to seeing and urging justice for the slaughtered thousands at Thaksin's direction is certainly a noble cause and very commendable.

When I started the topic I didn,t realize how T.V members would react and empathise with the importance of seeking justice for the families.

This for me is gratifying and if only we could pass on our obvious disgust and more important show our profound sympathies to all the victims and their families in a personal way.

They are not ignored anymore, thanks to the government now in charge, that,s for sure.

There are those of us who are always trying to fight for human injustice and awareness.

I feel humbled that you have posted such courteous comments S.J. as you are always keeping us informed on this and of other important issues, along with awareness, on a daily basis.

T.Visa is to be congratulated for providing us with so many individuals / members who,s eloquence and fair play are renowned and second to none.

With so many issues ongoing it,s easy for some to become impassive after a while.

This is not to say people do not care, far from it.

Kudos to you all from a grateful member on behalf of all the victims and their families who i feel sure would be uplifted by your support.

marshbags

Edited December 3, 2006 by marshbags

[sriracha john]

Perhaps because this is such a one dimensional issue and that it's been attempted to pull it this way and that and cloud that one dimension makes one wonder why Marshbags even needs to show the determination he has to keep it on track.

[younghusband]

Moving on from the, if I may say so, rather smug mutual congratulations, I can assure you both that most foreigners and certainly most members of this forum were repulsed by the brutal war on drugs.There is no monopoly on moral outrage.

The problem is that most Thais probably weren't, and the policy as I have pointed out before, was supported to some degree at all levels of Thai society.I fully agree that Thaksin must take full responsibility as PM but the full ramifications will only be available after a full and transparent investigation.What I mean by this is how the operation was planned and organised, which branches of government (ie in addition to Ministry of Interior) were involved, what formal and informal signals of support were given and by whom etc etc.

Was the policy decided at cabinet level and if so what do the minutes say? Were privy councillors consulted? Who authorised the lies about deaths being mostly caused by inter gang disputes? The tricky aspect in all this is that it won't wash to separate those who supported the murders in toto, and those who supported the murders with the exception of innocents caught up in cross fire etc.

I have no doubt Thaksin was the prime culprit but unless my hunch is very wrong, the power elite won't allow an open enquiry.If there is an agenda to find some hook to hang Thaksin in come what may, it will be easier to find another crime less likely to pull down or embarrass powerful interests.Heaven knows there's plenty of choice though lese majeste should be avoided for reasons that all but the completely simple minded will appreciate.

I suppose the other alternative is simply to rush to judgement, ie without any pretence of an investigation/trial to establish Thaksin's innocence or guilt.Satisfying I suppose but too close a Stalinist show trial for comfort.

[ColPyat]

When I started the topic I didn,t realize how T.V members would react and empathise with the importance of seeking justice for the families.

Yes, right. And here i repost a post of mine that was convenntly ignored by you:

The killings are explained by the system being at fault, and Thaksin being a product of this system. The system allowed Thaksin to set up the drug war.

If you look from the planning stages to the execution of the killings you can clearly see a rotten system at work.

That starts from the involvement of the police and military in the drugtrade, the corruption of the courts that could not prosecute large scale dealers and allowed that way to let the drug problem in Thailand deteriorate so far that something drastic had to be done.

It continues at the establishment of the blacklists that had countless willing collaborators who knowingly what is going to happen added names to the blacklists which in many villages were openly displayed.

Most media outlets in Thailand willingly collaborated in the drugwar.

Don't forget influental and famous monks, such as Luang Por Khun, who exonerated killers by publically stating that killing drug dealers does not draw bad karma.

It goes even so far, if you carefully analyse two particular speaches, that we are not allowed to debate this in public.

What stopped the first round of killings was no intervention by higher authorities, no large demonstrations led by TRT turncoats, no military coup by present powers, but only the increasingly loud voice of the National Human Rights Commission while it still had a few teeth left.

Yes, Thaksin has to be indicted, but shifting the sole blame on Thaksin is a crop out and does not justice to what happened in the terrible first two months of the drugwar. The drugwar has to be fully investigated, otherwise the next massacre is only around the corner.

The drugwar killings were not the first such killings in Thailand. Only less than 30 years ago the communist killings were done in a very similar fashion. None of the culprits ever were punished or investigated. The collaboration of aforementioned parts of society were exactly the same as in the drugwar killings.

As long as only Thaksin is blamed, i don't believe the good intentions of this government. This way there is never going to be a reform of the system, only furthers a culture of attaching blame to the most convenient part, and at the same time white washing everybody else.

If the government would be serious with human rights, why then are the officers that ordered Tak Bai still unpunished? Yes, Tak Bai is a result of Thaksin's policy in the south, but the orders of Tak Bai were clearly given by known military officers. They are, more than two months after the "democratic reform" coup still free.

Yesterday Bangkokpundit had a very interesting article regarding the problem of Human Rights in Thailand, exposing that people now in government had all not exactly the cleanest record regarding Human Rights violations.

But, we live in a culture of make believe and re-invention here. I don't hold my hopes up that this is going to change an soon. The present dug war investigations are a political maneuver, and not an honest attempt of reform.

[sriracha john]

Moving on from the, if I may say so, rather smug mutual congratulations, I can assure you both that most foreigners and certainly most members of this forum were repulsed by the brutal war on drugs.There is no monopoly on moral outrage.

There certainly shouldn't be, but a number of posts in this and other threads which go to great lengths to sidestep the outrage and attempt to diffuse the blame by bringing in all sorts of this underling or that American ex-president or even what previous administrations did makes me wonder why that is. If Thaksin is the ringleader for the 2003 drug war murders, and by all indications he was, then simply treat it as such. If we want to discuss the lowdown on what some PM did in 1957, they we should start another thread on that specific PM. Attempting to derail the discussions is what these apologists have been doing in this and other threads, which usually prompts the often-repeated moderator intervention to keep things on topic as they drift wildly from one tangential thought to another.

However, as you state though, it's only "most" on this forum who were repulsed by the slaughter, and not "all."

Whether those that fall into the "most" category congratulating one another for not vacillating off-topic qualifies as being smug, I'm not so sure that it does.

[ColPyat]

Those who do not learn from history are forced to repeat it.

[sriracha john]

Precisely why Thaksin should take the full brunt of the punishment and set a trend towards accountability, rather than be dismissed with nothing more than a "it's always been like this."

[JacknDanny]

Precisely why Thaksin should take the full brunt of the punishment and set a trend towards accountability, rather than be dismissed with nothing more than a "it's always been like this."

Excellent point SJ

[jumnien]

Moving on from the, if I may say so, rather smug mutual congratulations, I can assure you both that most foreigners and certainly most members of this forum were repulsed by the brutal war on drugs.There is no monopoly on moral outrage.

There certainly shouldn't be, but a number of posts in this and other threads which go to great lengths to sidestep the outrage and attempt to diffuse the blame by bringing in all sorts of this underling or that American ex-president or even what previous administrations did makes me wonder why that is. If Thaksin is the ringleader for the 2003 drug war murders, and by all indications he was, then simply treat it as such. If we want to discuss the lowdown on what some PM did in 1957, they we should start another thread on that specific PM. Attempting to derail the discussions is what these apologists have been doing in this and other threads, which usually prompts the often-repeated moderator intervention to keep things on topic as they drift wildly from one tangential thought to another.

However, as you state though, it's only "most" on this forum who were repulsed by the slaughter, and not "all."

Whether those that fall into the "most" category congratulating one another for not vacillating off-topic qualifies as being smug, I'm not so sure that it does.

I don't think there are many apoplogists really. It's just that the there are many of us that believe that the right-wing strategy of removing a leader by military intervention, contructing a trial, hanging the previously elected leader, will not really succeed any more in Thailand than it has in Iraq. We also believe that in both instances, Iraq and Thailand, it is obvious what the motivations for prosecution of the deposed leaders are, and that they are definitely not "for justice to be served".

[Plus]

it is obvious what the motivations for prosecution of the deposed leaders are, and that they are definitely not "for justice to be served".

It's not obvious. I don't even know what are you talking about.

Generals stated four reasons for the coup, and they largely stuck to them.

No other conspiracy theory, of which we had very very few, gained any credibility so far.

So, what's obvous to you?

[younghusband]

it is obvious what the motivations for prosecution of the deposed leaders are, and that they are definitely not "for justice to be served".

It's not obvious. I don't even know what are you talking about.

Generals stated four reasons for the coup, and they largely stuck to them.

No other conspiracy theory, of which we had very very few, gained any credibility so far.

So, what's obvous to you?

I and most others with an inkling of the background know exactly what you mean, and I strongly suspect Plus does too.He is just being disingenuous, in the knowledge that forum rules prevent the details of the power struggle being spelled out.Welcome to Premocracy.

A slight quibble on your use of the term "right wing" in this context.There is nothing specifically right wing about illegal coups against elected democracies.

[JacknDanny]

it is obvious what the motivations for prosecution of the deposed leaders are, and that they are definitely not "for justice to be served".

It's not obvious. I don't even know what are you talking about.

Generals stated four reasons for the coup, and they largely stuck to them.

No other conspiracy theory, of which we had very very few, gained any credibility so far.

So, what's obvous to you?

I and most others

Do not make assumptions that "most" others have the same neurotic views as yourself

[jumnien]

it is obvious what the motivations for prosecution of the deposed leaders are, and that they are definitely not "for justice to be served".

It's not obvious. I don't even know what are you talking about.

Generals stated four reasons for the coup, and they largely stuck to them.

No other conspiracy theory, of which we had very very few, gained any credibility so far.

So, what's obvous to you?

What's obvious to me is that the present administrations motivations are remarkably similar to Khun Thaksin's motivations - power and money, a large piece of the pie... or in local terms, all of the mango and most of the sticky rice...

[Plus]

I and most others with an inkling of the background know exactly what you mean, and I strongly suspect Plus does too.He is just being disingenuous, in the knowledge that forum rules prevent the details of the power struggle being spelled out.

Justice IS being served, powers alligned with justice won. There was a struggle, naturally.

It's not obvious to me, and for many others here, is that powers alligned with justice have other motives behind the coup, as alleged by Mdeland.

Ultimately it leads to the question of credibility. For the vast majority of population the powers that staged the coup are beyond reproach.

You won't find any more justice in Thailand, it's the best they've got in the country.

[hammered]

Moving on from the, if I may say so, rather smug mutual congratulations, I can assure you both that most foreigners and certainly most members of this forum were repulsed by the brutal war on drugs.There is no monopoly on moral outrage.

There certainly shouldn't be, but a number of posts in this and other threads which go to great lengths to sidestep the outrage and attempt to diffuse the blame by bringing in all sorts of this underling or that American ex-president or even what previous administrations did makes me wonder why that is. If Thaksin is the ringleader for the 2003 drug war murders, and by all indications he was, then simply treat it as such. If we want to discuss the lowdown on what some PM did in 1957, they we should start another thread on that specific PM. Attempting to derail the discussions is what these apologists have been doing in this and other threads, which usually prompts the often-repeated moderator intervention to keep things on topic as they drift wildly from one tangential thought to another.

However, as you state though, it's only "most" on this forum who were repulsed by the slaughter, and not "all."

Whether those that fall into the "most" category congratulating one another for not vacillating off-topic qualifies as being smug, I'm not so sure that it does.

I don't think there are many apoplogists really. It's just that the there are many of us that believe that the right-wing strategy of removing a leader by military intervention, contructing a trial, hanging the previously elected leader, will not really succeed any more in Thailand than it has in Iraq. We also believe that in both instances, Iraq and Thailand, it is obvious what the motivations for prosecution of the deposed leaders are, and that they are definitely not "for justice to be served".

Personally I would rather see Thailand ratify the international court and allow Thaksin to be tried there if indeed someone wishes to raise a complaint. That way would remove accusations of political manipulation in court. However, I do understand that sometimes countries want to punish their own erred leaders, and at the end of the day it is up to Thailand to make that decision.

Saddam should have been tried in an international court too.