Becoming Fluent In Thai

[poorfarang]

How long would it take someone to become fluent in reading/writing/speaking thai?

Whats the best way to go about this?

I have the time and dedication to do whatever it takes to get to this level. Seems like I would need to take daily lessons and combine that with some at home study materials.

Can anyone offer some insight on how they got to be fluent in thai language.

[tracker]

poor falang guide to fluent thai:

Well, assuming you are in Thailand, you are already in the Thai classroom without going to school....

If you are a "poor falang", I suggest buying a couple of those cheap children books to learn the thai "Alphabet". Thai people will be most helpful with your pronouncation, which comes actually while practicing in the real world.

after that:

I looked for a writing (book/magazine/paper) which spurred my interest. I start copying it on paper, practicing my thai writing. The line under there i used for writing the sounds of the words in the roman alphabet, using a thai/english dictionary (probably you end up buying a couple, since quality varies). Now you are learning the reading of thai, and while doing that, a lot of nouns and verbs will show up.... being the basic to start talking in any language. You can practice them with your Thai friends...

There is a big difference in Thai talking and writing. You will notice automatically while doing this. Forget about grammar, you will learn it "on the go".... Ever wondered how young children learn to talk, with correct grammar, even before they visit any school!?

T.

Edited November 14, 2006 by tracker

[tracker]

Don't worry about tones.... you learn them as you go.... Some wrong pronouncations bring you into very funny situations which are a great help into never get it wrong again.... Very good way to enjoy learning thai.

[poorfarang]

Ive been living here in Thailand for 2 year.

Ive got several books, some audio cd's, and some software that I used off and on during my stay here.

I have a 'decent' vocab from being here for a while and I can get around but Id like to take my speaking to the next level. I want to dedicate as much time as needed to speak "perfect"

[In the Rai!]

Ive been living here in Thailand for 2 year.

Ive got several books, some audio cd's, and some software that I used off and on during my stay here.

I have a 'decent' vocab from being here for a while and I can get around but Id like to take my speaking to the next level. I want to dedicate as much time as needed to speak "perfect"

I agree with you on the childrens books. However I would make sure that they are the schools books that grade 1 kids use, not the "muu sarm duwa" (3 little pigs) style. The ones I used were "rian nungsu pasa Thai" and they are the books that children use when they start grade 1.

I am not sure how far up they go though. I stopped at grade 5 book 1. There are 2 books for each grade (1 per term) These books were great for me. They have stories to read and I really found them useful. There is no English in them so it stops you relating everything to English as per the books with the English translation. You just learn it Thai more than not.

As per the suggestion of not learning sounds. I personally would learn them and think that it is really important to start from day 1. You cant just learn them later because we are creatures of habit and trying to change the way we say things after we have been saying them incorrect for a while is very hard to do.

If time is not the issue, then maybe you could allow time each day just to practice the correct tones of the words you just learnt. I wish I had of done this when I started learning. Even now I still say some words incorrectly as a result of not focusing on sounds when I started.

good luck!

In The Rai!

[ashacat]

Don't worry about tones.... you learn them as you go....

I'm not sure about this. I learnt the tones first and this helped me alot further down the line. Once you have a basic understanding of the tones and the individual vowels pronounciation becomes far easier. (Although, I suppose learning is a very individual thing...)

As "In The Rai" says

we are creatures of habit and trying to change the way we say things after we have been saying them incorrect for a while is very hard to do.

Edited November 14, 2006 by ashacat

[meadish_sweetball]

Ive been living here in Thailand for 2 year.

Ive got several books, some audio cd's, and some software that I used off and on during my stay here.

I have a 'decent' vocab from being here for a while and I can get around but Id like to take my speaking to the next level. I want to dedicate as much time as needed to speak "perfect"

I agree with you on the childrens books. However I would make sure that they are the schools books that grade 1 kids use, not the "muu sarm duwa" (3 little pigs) style. The ones I used were "rian nungsu pasa Thai" and they are the books that children use when they start grade 1.

I am not sure how far up they go though. I stopped at grade 5 book 1. There are 2 books for each grade (1 per term) These books were great for me. They have stories to read and I really found them useful. There is no English in them so it stops you relating everything to English as per the books with the English translation. You just learn it Thai more than not.

As per the suggestion of not learning sounds. I personally would learn them and think that it is really important to start from day 1. You cant just learn them later because we are creatures of habit and trying to change the way we say things after we have been saying them incorrect for a while is very hard to do.

If time is not the issue, then maybe you could allow time each day just to practice the correct tones of the words you just learnt. I wish I had of done this when I started learning. Even now I still say some words incorrectly as a result of not focusing on sounds when I started.

good luck!

In The Rai!

Fully agreed.

Too many people skip this and as a result are stuck with strong accents with several aspects that make them more difficult to understand by a Thai.

In the same way as Thais need to practice extensively and actively before being able to pronounce 'rice', 'write', 'rye', 'light' so they sound distinctly different from each other, and not all like 'lie', farang need to devote considerable time and effort to learning the tones, as well as the proper pronunciation of other unfamiliar phonemes (sounds which carry meaning).

When you start out with one or more non-tonal languages, your brain is not wired to think that the tone of a word has any bearing on its meaning. Even when you intellectually have understood the concept of tones, your brain patterns prevent you from registering tone information effectively.

To wire the brain to understand and produce correct phonemic tones, you need to practice a lot, and realize that your brain is opposed to acquire the knowledge and information you are looking for.

I still find I often need to ask the tones of new words I learn through conversation, because I know I cannot rely 100% on my ears to tell me the correct tone of a word, except when a it is spoken slowly and in isolation.

There is a big difference in Thai talking and writing. You will notice automatically while doing this. Forget about grammar, you will learn it "on the go".... Ever wondered how young children learn to talk, with correct grammar, even before they visit any school!?

Children's brains are not like adult brains. While it is true that it is possible to learn grammar through trial and error even for an adult, many adults benefit from structured, formal learning. This is because they have had greater exposure to systematic thinking and categorisation.

Essentially I believe it is a matter of knowing yourself and which style suits you best. If you think school was efficient at teaching you things, go with the formal approach. Otherwise, go the natural way.

Apart from the actual learning, an organised learning procedure with set lesson times can help keep motivation up. It is easier to procrastinate and lose interest if you yourself is the only carrot/stick.

[PeaceBlondie]

I have the same problem: I obviously would benefit greatly from learning Thai, but I can't 'get it.' I came here at age 60, 3.5 years ago, and haven't learned the language yet. I intend to live here from now on, and have all the time in the world.

I learned (or re-learned) Spanish at age 56, easily, but I've always had trouble understanding native speakers. I'm probably tone deaf, but my hearing can't be too bad if I understand Scots, Welshmen, Kiwis, etc.

I have all the time in the world, but not much motivation. Is there hope for me, or do I first need to get motivated?

[Neeranam]

I have all the time in the world, but not much motivation. Is there hope for me, or do I first need to get motivated?

Without motivation, it will be very very difficult.

Ideal 'forced immersion' is the best way. Like a Spanish immigrant working as a taxi driver in the USA, althoughI hear there are 60% Spanish in LA now.

The best way to learn Thai for me was to be places with people who couldn't speak ANY English so I was thinking in Thai the WHOLE time. I did try some books with cassettes but they were only good for learning vocabulary and some grammatical points, and also to learn to read - it did that with a book, then lots of books getting progressively more difficult. I'm trying to master the newspapers now, but getting on very slowly as I am not very motivated. Take my telly away and I'd get on much better.

[Grover]

I have the same problem: I obviously would benefit greatly from learning Thai, but I can't 'get it.' I came here at age 60, 3.5 years ago, and haven't learned the language yet. I intend to live here from now on, and have all the time in the world.

I learned (or re-learned) Spanish at age 56, easily, but I've always had trouble understanding native speakers. I'm probably tone deaf, but my hearing can't be too bad if I understand Scots, Welshmen, Kiwis, etc.

I have all the time in the world, but not much motivation. Is there hope for me, or do I first need to get motivated?

There is hope, and you need good motivation to get over the first hurdle. Which is, is a basic working vocab of about 200 or 300 words, memorised basic phrases and basic mini-conversations. My advice is not to focus on pronunciation at this stage - put 100% of your effort into memory work in order to get over the big first hurdle. Say, about 3 intensive weeks give or take should do it. After this, your motivation levels should naturally increase and you will have at least a basic foundation to use, practice & learn in day to day life. You can work on pronunciation, reading, tough words, later.

Motivation is a bit tricky if you don't currently have it. Don't tell yourself you 'cant get it', its not helping . Set a reasonable goal with a timeframe like above, & try to make it fun & challenging. It's really useful to know Thai in Thailand, especially if you are living long-term. Totally worth the investment in time and energy.

[In the Rai!]

Take my telly away and I'd get on much better.

here here!

[OneeyedJohn]

Can't even conquer the Alphabet after 5 + years

got the wall charts, audio CD's, school books and a Thai wife for many years...

Nothing sticks, so I feel utterly defeated and useless.

I was gonna call myself Dumbo but that would be rude to elephants, and

its that type of memory I need

[steveromagnino]

There is hope, and you need good motivation to get over the first hurdle. Which is, is a basic working vocab of about 200 or 300 words, memorised basic phrases and basic mini-conversations. My advice is not to focus on pronunciation at this stage - put 100% of your effort into memory work in order to get over the big first hurdle. Say, about 3 intensive weeks give or take should do it. After this, your motivation levels should naturally increase and you will have at least a basic foundation to use, practice & learn in day to day life. You can work on pronunciation, reading, tough words, later.

If you only want to speak a little for kicks, then this approach is fine.

However, otherwise i recommend a little bit the opposite, of saying a little but saying it right.

Far too many foreigners and 1/2 Thais (me included) running around butchering the language already; say a few things right and that is a solid foundation; not nailing the tones and vowel lengths early on is a bit like building on quicksand. Not to say you should obsess with that, but foreigners (usually farang) who think you can get away with not learning tones end up later on either stuck at beginner/intermediate level, or having to relearn a lot again.

I say Neeranam's approach is the one; total emersion; no websurfing in english; no english music on the radio, no movies; just THai for 1 month solid, and there is no way you'll be stuck with a vocab of 200-300 words; it should be far more than that just from everyday stuff!

Also...trying all the time; rather than getting frustrated and falling back to english; throw away the crutch, don;t be afraid to look like an idiot.

For reading and writing, my aunt suggested I write a diary every day, even if it was taking 15 minutes to write 3 sentences. Worked wonders for the week I actually did it.

Saying you don't have time is a cop out. If you are living here in Thailand, you have time. If living elsewhere, then it is going to be very very hard.

Admittedly I have somewhat of a 'blood' advantage, but I didn't use any Thai at all really until age 20+, and from being totally lost on my first day after I moved here (I could tell a taxi where to go, order basic food, ask for toilet, wai a phoo yai about that much), I was having full conversations with the press and media about 3 months later, using very butchered Thai. Reading and writing was one month from seeing it first time to being able to read slowly, and write slowly.

But this was total emersion, living with and only speaking Thai, and actively working on the reading/writing.

After 3 months, 6 years later I am probably no better, and possibly worse!

Good luck :-)

Edited November 14, 2006 by steveromagnino

[Grover]

Once you have the motivation, pretty much nothing can stop you. Your studies should begin by getting the motivation ball rolling and keeping the momentum going and going.

If you are studying Thai by yourself, your gonna have to motivate yourself. You don't have the luxury of grades, fees, and peers/teacher to motivate you.

You will want to have a feeling of progress and acomplishment, especially with regard to actually stringing phrases together - learning one word a day won't help. 30, 40, 50 words per day is better.

Again, in my opinion, don't worry too much about pronuncuation in the beginning. If you are a native english speaker, most sounds are pretty similar. Just listen carefully and try and say like a parrot what you hear on the tape or CD. Its good enough for the beginning - the finer points you can work on later. But the emphasis and energy should be getting down and dirty with the memory work. A working vocab and the ability to string phrases together will get the motivation ball rolling.

Then again, as an absolute beginner without much motivation, if you think your pronunciation is really, unintelligibly bad, or the idea of perfect pronunciation motivates you, by all means, do it. I just recommend the approach that worked for me.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Grover

[Jersey_UK]

I shouldn't really be responding to this thread as I am one of those who have started and stopped so many many times, without actually getting very far!

But I will say that at one time I could read a few basic words (and mispronounce them horribly), but that I did get a real kick / boost from just seeing how all these strange symbols magically turned into (a few!!) words that meant something - kinda spooky - as up to then it was essentially just learning mumbo jumbo!

I have learnt the Alphabet several times (albeit now forgotten again!) the best way (for me) is using Flash cards (printed on Blank Business cards) that I first learn by rote in order (A, B, C etc) and then shuffle them into random order. Every time I forget, it does become a bit easier to re-learn each time, I figure that the knowledge learnt never really goes way, just get's buried and needs re-awakening!

But I never really progressed into anything remotely involving conversations..............

I would suggest that finding out how the language is constructed by reading a book in English that explains this is a neccesity (so at least you know where you are intending to go)

My intended route was to use Magazines / Newspapers to pick out words and then sentences. I wish someone in Thailand would invent punctuation though and spaces........between.............words

I am convinced that their is a Vocab of around 1000 words that someone could / should learn (for any foreign language) and which would not enable them to be fluent, but once learnt would provide them with the basis on which to learn at their own speed / according to their own needs - but I have been naysayed on this theory a few times, and as I can't back up my claim I won't push it.

At one point I was tracking all the words that the G/F was using in correspondence to see which ones she used most frequently so that I could work out what I needed to learn (to me it seems that words like "And", "In" "Together" "Before" etc etc would be more useful to learn first than words like "Adjoined", "Contained", "Cojoined", "Prior" or.......... "Spaghetti", cos' they get used / can be used more frequently until you learn the more sophisticated (Sp??!!) words - but <deleted> do I know??), but this all fell by the wayside in my usual manner. She writes in English now

But <deleted> do I know Maybe next year?

[meadish_sweetball]

My intended route was to use Magazines / Newspapers to pick out words and then sentences. I wish someone in Thailand would invent punctuation though and spaces........between.............words

Newspapers are not good practice material for beginners. Magazines are somewhat better.

Newspaper Thai is highly stylized and uses grammatical constructions and slang not found in other types of writing.

As for spaces between words, they would definitely make it easier to read Thai - but if you learn the tone rules properly while learning basic vocab, you will find that you can read through a text with largely correct sounds and tones, even the words you have not seen before. I have seen a few people try to learn how to read without bothering with the tone rules. The result is that they learn how to recognize basic words, but have no strategy for sounding out new words.

There are a few systems that should be mastered, no matter how tedious they are, and it does make sense to create a solid foundation from the start, instead of trying to combine a multitude of tidbits without a clear idea of how they are interrelated.

If you are a native english speaker, most sounds are pretty similar.

Pretty similar doesn't cut it if you want to speak clearly and avoid misunderstandings. Only if you think "I won fi li an noo-den soob" is acceptable English. That is applying the closest sounds in Thai onto English - and it works just as well, or badly, in the other direction.

[Grover]

If you are a native english speaker, most sounds are pretty similar.

Pretty similar doesn't cut it if you want to speak clearly and avoid misunderstandings. Only if you think "I won fi li an noo-den soob" is acceptable English. That is applying the closest sounds in Thai onto English - and it works just as well, or badly, in the other direction.

I agree, pronunciation is important. But not at the expense of motivation, especially if you got next to none. In context, my point was that don't get too caught up with really good pronunciation in the early stages because (I believe) it's far more important to get the basic words under your belt so you can start conversing in real time. No worries, you will be able to be understood most of the time in the beginning. Thai people love it when farang can speak a few words of Thai & they will make an effort to listen because they think its fascinating.

My words were mainly for PeaceBlondie, who said he had next to no motivation. But for the OP, who sounds pretty motivated, I agree with meadish sweetball. Good pronunciation right from the start will save time in the long run.

[tracker]

Wow! I'd say that the poor farang got a lot of info for free here... Should get him going.

I read a book regarding speed-learning not so long ago. They extensively researched every aspect of studying languages to get the most out of a short time. The most important aspect was that you can stuff a lot in your brain as long as you do it together with positive emotions. So make it so you enjoy your learning. This is also why children learn faster. They explore everything in their new world through playing. So also their language. This is greatly disturbed once they go to school, since most teaching methods slow (most) kids down.

This is also the reason why an unmotived person will use a very long time to learn a new language. Telling yourself that it is gonna be hard also part of the negative game. The unmotivated person will stop all the time. Total immersion will not work if the will is not there.

Funny to read in that book, how a class of russian military men had to learn french in 30 days... 1st day: all very serious hardlined faces in complete uniform. The last day: all wearing casual clothes. They organised a play in the classroom: 2 russians were dressed up like girls, mother and daughter, and some kids, the father came home late from work and had an argument with his "wife". All this was preformed in french, all classmates were laughing their ass off and all comments from them was in french....

If someone has interest i can email this book to you, as it is in html, and not a very long read.

[In the Rai!]

I agree, pronunciation is important. But not at the expense of motivation, especially if you got next to none. My words were mainly for PeaceBlondie, who said he had next to no motivation.

I can hear where people are coming from with the no pronuncition thing, but I dont agree. I think there is probably nothing more demotivating than learning new words, only to use them and have no one understand what you are saying. I think that is half the reason people give up.

Try it at the market. Go and order a peice of chicken in your worst Thai pronunciation you could do, but say the correct words. They will more than likely have no clue what you are saying and more than likey speak English with you if they can. Whereas if you ask for chicken with a perfect accent and have very limited Thai they will be more inclined to continue on speaking Thai with you. Reason is because they understand what you said with the correct pronunciation, whereas when you use the correct words but pronunced incorrectly they have to guess what your saying.

Just my 2 cents but I think for motivational purposes, a split down the middle is in order. Learn a few words a day, put them into sentences and practice the pronunciation. do this everyday and dont forget to revisit the words that you have previously learned and again make new sentences for them until they are firmly implanted in your head.

ITR!

[Nawtilus]

Could someone tell me the best way to learn Thai if you are tone deaf, have bad memory and are stupid.

[Grover]

Aonhter tinhg taht colud be mroe ipmoratnt tahn pornunicaiton is cnfodeince wehn tlkiang, sepainkg wtiohut faer of benig msduniertosod.

[Nawtilus]

Surprising how easy that is to read when you use the glance over method.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks to all who answered my concerns.

My low degree of motivation is a combination of things both positive and negative. I live here and should speak Thai. It's not impossible. I have the time. But I'm probably tone deaf, and I'm old, and I suffer from attention deficit disorder, and I don't like new alphabets, and the grammar is not the same, and Thais can't be expected to help me when I make more than one mistake per sentence.

Example, from teaching EFL: if you make one mistake in word order, another mistake in pronunciation, and another mistake in grammar, people don't understand the speaker. "Nay may Joe" doesn't sound like "My name is Joan" and might be "Joe may not do it" or "It's not May or June." The Thais may not know if we're talking about a mother, a horse, or a dog (don't call their mother a dog!), a chicken or an egg, etc.

I've got both the book and the CD's from Benjawan whatshername; I'll give it a try.

[popshirt]

I can hear where people are coming from with the no pronuncition thing, but I dont agree. I think there is probably nothing more demotivating than learning new words, only to use them and have no one understand what you are saying. I think that is half the reason people give up.

Try it at the market. Go and order a peice of chicken in your worst Thai pronunciation you could do, but say the correct words. They will more than likely have no clue what you are saying and more than likey speak English with you if they can. Whereas if you ask for chicken with a perfect accent and have very limited Thai they will be more inclined to continue on speaking Thai with you. Reason is because they understand what you said with the correct pronunciation, whereas when you use the correct words but pronunced incorrectly they have to guess what your saying.

Just my 2 cents but I think for motivational purposes, a split down the middle is in order. Learn a few words a day, put them into sentences and practice the pronunciation. do this everyday and dont forget to revisit the words that you have previously learned and again make new sentences for them until they are firmly implanted in your head.

ITR!

My experience exactly. I am so tired of the blank look from my mother-in-law when I mispronounce words, I have decided to learn the correct tones, even though it may take longer. My spouse is a great help with this as he agrees with my new "method".

[steveromagnino]

Progress goes like this:

Beginner

1-2 words; compliment = 'khun pud passar Thai dai ler...wow!'

2-20 words: compliment = 'farang poot passar Thai gaeng jung'

21 - 100 words: compliment = 'mai dee, farang roo mahk gor mai dee 55'

Intermediate

after a few months for some, a few years for other

compliment = 'poot chut na'

Advanced

reading, writing, full conversations about government, politics, religion

compliment 'khun poot mai gaeng, poot mai chut, mai muan kon Thai leuy'???!!!

Most non english speakers seem to get closer on the pronounciation; but there are a few Americans, English and Aussies I've met with very close to Thai pronounciation. So it can be done... just requires dedication and ability to laugh at your own mistakes (something that is very very hard for some people!)

[Grover]

Try it at the market. Go and order a peice of chicken in your worst Thai pronunciation you could do, but say the correct words. They will more than likely have no clue what you are saying and more than likey speak English with you if they can. Whereas if you ask for chicken with a perfect accent and have very limited Thai they will be more inclined to continue on speaking Thai with you. Reason is because they understand what you said with the correct pronunciation, whereas when you use the correct words but pronunced incorrectly they have to guess what your saying.

Just point to the chicken, smile, nod your head and give her 25 baht. Mumble something in Thai if you like, it doesn't matter. She knows what you want.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Grover

[wasabi]

I dislike the way Thai is taught at the Thai school I attend for beginner classes. I ended up self studying and getting myself to the intermediate level because of this. The reason I don't like it, is they brush off things like tones and basic grammar because they think it's too tough and you'll lose motivation. I think it's reasonable to have a small arsenal of canned phrases but spending an entire year just doing this is building a poor foundation in my opinion. I think there is truth to not discouraging beginners by throwing everything in the mix but if you aren't prepared for a challenge and aren't motivated than you have no business studying the language with an ambition to be fluent. If you just want to be a weekend pom sabai dee person that's another story.

For me the worst feeling is having all the words and grammar right but having a Thai person give me a blank stare after I speak. I think pronunciation is the most important thing and cannot be ignored, however there is more to language than pronunciation. If you just sit around all day mastering the pronunciation of ten words you aren't going to get very far. So it's like two steps forward one step backwards. Learn new words and grammatical concepts than practice speaking these until the sound is right. I wouldn't say your pronunciation has to be perfect but it shouldn't be ignored.

I am getting better at pronunciation though whenever I speak Thai in a restaurant the wait staff responds in English because they aren't confident they understood me. One other thing I am visually disabled, I don't have left peripheral vision, due to this not having spaces between the Thai words can be a nightmare but I am very ambitious and motivated and I don't mind having to study 2 hours for every 1 hour a normal person has to study. There are some who genuinely cannot learn a 2nd language but I think most people just psych themselves out.

My last bit of advice is to take Ginkgo Biloba and Gotu Kola, these help concentration and memory.

[In the Rai!]

My last bit of advice is to take Ginkgo Biloba and Gotu Kola, these help concentration and memory.

I must confess... I have no idea what you are talking about!

Ginkgo..... and Goto....

In The Rai!

[In the Rai!]

Just point to the chicken, smile, nod your head and give her 25 baht. Mumble something in Thai if you like, it doesn't matter. She knows what you want.

You would think that would work. Though going back to when I first came here and started learning the language. I still remember clearly a lady at a chicken stall that had no idea what I was saying. I kept thinking to myself (how could she not understand me when all she is selling is chicken. I wasnt asking for pork or beef, not that she had any). but she couldnt and panicked and called her friend over to help.

My point is if your not saying it correctly than you cant really claim to having learnt those words because if no one understands them, what good are they. Sure its better than knowing nothing but not much. IMO

Remember everyone learns differently and some people are alot better with sounds than others. I am simply adding what works for me.

In The Rai!

[Grover]

I still remember clearly a lady at a chicken stall that had no idea what I was saying. I kept thinking to myself (how could she not understand me when all she is selling is chicken. I wasnt asking for pork or beef, not that she had any). but she couldnt and panicked and called her friend over to help.

It's not uncommon for some peoples brain cells to freeze when encountered with a farang who speaks in Thai. It's not always the farangs fault in broken communication, some Thais are poor listeners. Most are good. Then again, perhaps your pronunciation was really really bad.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Grover