Homosexuality and Islam

[isanbirder]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/21/gay-lgbt-muslim-countries-middle-east

This lengthy, interesting article gives an overview of the way homosexuality is treated in Islamic societies. Gender segregation is much stronger than in the west, with one result being that male/male displays of affection are frequent and tolerated. In most countries (especially Shia), homosexuality is only persecuted when it is politically advantageous to do so. Transgender presents a problem, as the Koran is adamant that all human beings are either male or female.

[oxo1947]

I heard an Islamic cleric tell a London radio station that in an ideal world he'd like to see all homosexuals get executed.
.
I was really shocked- -----

.

-----what would a Muslim be doing in an ideal world?...........................

[onthemoon]

I have heard Christian priests in the US saying that homosexuals should be killed. (Actually, it was a Youtube video some time back.)

Religious fanatics are bad, whichever religion they subscribe to.

And in fact, I had a good time in Morocco and in Syria back in the 1980s.

[Jingthing]

It's not just political reasons but also cultural reasons.

In any case, it seems clear the most dangerous place to be gay today is in the ISLAMIC state.

Oh, no. There's that word. ISLAMIC.

The article features a picture of Istanbul 2015.

What about Istanbul 2016?

Turkish Islamist and ultra-nationalist groups have threatened counterdemonstrations to stop the parade from taking place.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/06/17/world/europe/ap-eu-turkey-gay-pride-parade.html?_r=0

Edited June 22, 2016 by Jingthing

[Oxx]

What about Istanbul 2016?

What about it? It's not happening. It's been banned by the authorities:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/turkey-bans-istanbul-gay-pride-due-security-fears-160617142611973.html

[Jingthing]

Turkey is going backwards from not very good to worse for LGBTQ people, and the reason OBVIOUSLY is the more conservative Islamist government in power.

http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/19/turkish-police-stop-istanbul-gay-pride-event-with-tear-gas-and-plastic-bullets/

Turkish police stop Istanbul gay pride event with tear gas and plastic bullets

Edited June 23, 2016 by Jingthing

[thai3]

The prophet liked to dress up in women's clothes and had a liking for young boys around him, they don'y even know their own history

[onthemoon]

The prophet liked to dress up in women's clothes and had a liking for young boys around him, they don'y even know their own history

I am not a Moslem but i sincerely doubt that the prophet dressed up in women's clothes. I would really like to know where you got this from and what your source is.

[Oxx]

The prophet liked to dress up in women's clothes and had a liking for young boys around him, they don'y even know their own history

I am not a Moslem but i sincerely doubt that the prophet dressed up in women's clothes. I would really like to know where you got this from and what your source is.

Of course he did. He frequently dressed in his favourite wife's clothing. It gave him "inspiration". For references, see:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/mhd_cross_dressing1.htm

[onthemoon]

The prophet liked to dress up in women's clothes and had a liking for young boys around him, they don'y even know their own history

I am not a Moslem but i sincerely doubt that the prophet dressed up in women's clothes. I would really like to know where you got this from and what your source is.

Of course he did. He frequently dressed in his favourite wife's clothing. It gave him "inspiration". For references, see:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/mhd_cross_dressing1.htm

You seriously post a link that proposes this:

The Holy Bible clearly condemns cross-dressing, i.e. man dressing like a woman and vice-versa. God’s holy Word says that those who do such things are an abomination to Yahweh:

“A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.” Deuteronomy 22:5 NIV

My answer to this is: Letter to Laura.

This website is not totally anti-LGBT, it is also anti-Islam, hardly a source to take seriously. Don't ridicule yourself.

[Oxx]

This website is not totally anti-LGBT, it is also anti-Islam, hardly a source to take seriously. Don't ridicule yourself.

The website itself doesn't matter. Those are 100% genuine excerpts from Islam's holy books. Nothing ridiculous about that.

Unquestionably Mohammed liked to wear his wife's clothing.

[onthemoon]

This website is not totally anti-LGBT, it is also anti-Islam, hardly a source to take seriously. Don't ridicule yourself.

The website itself doesn't matter. Those are 100% genuine excerpts from Islam's holy books. Nothing ridiculous about that.

Unquestionably Mohammed liked to wear his wife's clothing.

And if that is a fact (which needs to be verified by reliable sources before I believe it), do you agree that it is actually good news if it turns out that the prophet was a cross-dresser?

[Oxx]

This website is not totally anti-LGBT, it is also anti-Islam, hardly a source to take seriously. Don't ridicule yourself.

The website itself doesn't matter. Those are 100% genuine excerpts from Islam's holy books. Nothing ridiculous about that.

Unquestionably Mohammed liked to wear his wife's clothing.

And if that is a fact (which needs to be verified by reliable sources before I believe it), do you agree that it is actually good news if it turns out that the prophet was a cross-dresser?

Clearly you don't know much about Islam, and don't know that the Sahih al-Bukhari is one of the most highly regarded Hadith. That of Imam Muslim and Mishkat Al Masabih are also highly regarded. These are the reliable sources which verify the truth of his transvestism.

As for whether it's good news or not doesn't matter. Moslems will ignore the truth. (They're very good at doing that with their belovèd role model and totally ignore what a thoroughly vile individual he was.) And for non-Moslems the man is an utter irrelevance, except to the extend that he inspires his followers to commit atrocities.

[isanbirder]

Does it matter, Oxx?

I opened this thread because I thought the article gave a good overview of how Islam regards LGBT people now, not just as a pulpit for islamophobes. What matters is what is happening now in Islamic countries (though I'm fully aware of how narrowly they interpret their holy texts.).

Nor do I particularly care whether Turkey permits Gay Pride events. I'm much more concerned with whether Turkish gays can quietly get on with their lives without interference from the authorities. Flaunting their gayness when they know it will arouse violent opposition doesn't seem to be particularly helpful.

[Oxx]

Nor do I particularly care whether Turkey permits Gay Pride events. I'm much more concerned with whether Turkish gays can quietly get on with their lives without interference from the authorities. Flaunting their gayness when they know it will arouse violent opposition doesn't seem to be particularly helpful.

Well, I care whether Turkey permits Gay Pride events or not.

I also care when people use such offensive expressions as "flaunting their gayness". Very poor choice of words.

I also care when "flaunting their gayness" apparently inevitably leads to "violent opposition" in Turkey.

There is only a need for Gay Pride events when there isn't widespread acceptance of homosexuality. It's a reaction to oppression - and often an incredibly brave reaction at that.

A situation where "Turkish gays can quietly get on with their lives without interference from the authorities" is not acceptable on so many levels.

Why should these people have to be so discreet in their behaviour? More discreet than breeders?

Why should there be any interference from "the authorities" in their personal lives whatsoever?

And what about the risk that "the authorities" (heavily influenced by Islamic values) change their minds about what little tolerance there is?

Of course, being permitted to be gay without fear of repression or violence is only the start. Then there's the right to get married, to adopt children, pension rights, and so forth. Quietly getting on with one's life isn't going to bring about the reforms required by equality and by justice.

[thai3]

The prophet liked to dress up in women's clothes and had a liking for young boys around him, they don'y even know their own history

I am not a Moslem but i sincerely doubt that the prophet dressed up in women's clothes. I would really like to know where you got this from and what your source is.

In the haddiths and well known, too busy to look it up at present

[Jingthing]

I've never heard credible accusations that the Muslim prophet was a pedo for boys, but it is well known that he married an extremely young girl and if had had sex with her before a very long wait that would make him a pedo by modern standards. But of course you have to allow for differences in cultures and eras. Wearing frocks, that's something straight men are quite often into for fetishistic reasons ...

I don't see how this historical gossip is useful for this discussion about the modern situation for Muslim gay people today.

It can't be denied that gay people are oppressed badly in probably ALL Islamic dominated nations, but they are also oppressed badly in SOME non-Islamic dominated nations as well.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Jingthing

[thai3]

[Jingthing]

What clothes the Muslim prophet wore -- what difference does it make?

[onthemoon]

Certainly a MUCH more credible source... But I'll watch it for fun when I have the time.

[onthemoon]

The prophet liked to dress up in women's clothes and had a liking for young boys around him, they don'y even know their own history

I am not a Moslem but i sincerely doubt that the prophet dressed up in women's clothes. I would really like to know where you got this from and what your source is.

In the haddiths and well known, too busy to look it up at present

I'll google "haddiths". If he did cross-dress, this is a historical fact relevant to today's discussions with Moslems that are against cross-dressing. Hence, good news for the LGBT community.

[Oxx]

If he did cross-dress, this is a historical fact relevant to today's discussions with Moslems that are against cross-dressing. Hence, good news for the LGBT community.

Not really. Mohammed had a habit of inventing special rules for himself which he claimed were given to him by "Allah". For example other men were limited to a maximum four wives, he could take as many as he wanted. Similarly, he was allowed to wear women's clothing. Others weren't. After all, that's what his god told him.

[Jingthing]

If you get the chance, I suggest that people watch Fareed Zakaria's recent special called Why They Hate Us.

It touches directly on some of the issues in the O.P. even though it is of course USA-centric.

It's very balanced, cautioning against irrational Islamophobia while at the same time not running from the reality of the problems which, like it or not, are rooted in parts of the Islamic religious dogma.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[katana]

The prophet liked to dress up in women's clothes and had a liking for young boys around him, they don'y even know their own history

I am not a Moslem but i sincerely doubt that the prophet dressed up in women's clothes. I would really like to know where you got this from and what your source is.

Muhammad, Cross-Dressing, and the London Muslim Patrol

[uptheos]

This website is not totally anti-LGBT, it is also anti-Islam, hardly a source to take seriously. Don't ridicule yourself.

The website itself doesn't matter. Those are 100% genuine excerpts from Islam's holy books. Nothing ridiculous about that.

Unquestionably Mohammed liked to wear his wife's clothing.

Could he fit into a 9 year old's clothes?

[onthemoon]

If he did cross-dress, this is a historical fact relevant to today's discussions with Moslems that are against cross-dressing. Hence, good news for the LGBT community.

Not really. Mohammed had a habit of inventing special rules for himself which he claimed were given to him by "Allah". For example other men were limited to a maximum four wives, he could take as many as he wanted. Similarly, he was allowed to wear women's clothing. Others weren't. After all, that's what his god told him.

OK, I have looked around a bit and you seem to be right about the cross-dressing. I stand corrected.

I consider this good news for the LGBT community, because I don't think that the average Muslim doesn't even know that. So it should be publicised more, and let's see what they say then.

[onthemoon]

The prophet liked to dress up in women's clothes and had a liking for young boys around him, they don'y even know their own history

I am not a Moslem but i sincerely doubt that the prophet dressed up in women's clothes. I would really like to know where you got this from and what your source is.

Muhammad, Cross-Dressing, and the London Muslim Patrol

Thanks, quite interesting, especially since he does not just take the English translation but seems to know and understand the Arabic original.

[thai3]

This website is not totally anti-LGBT, it is also anti-Islam, hardly a source to take seriously. Don't ridicule yourself.

The website itself doesn't matter. Those are 100% genuine excerpts from Islam's holy books. Nothing ridiculous about that.

Unquestionably Mohammed liked to wear his wife's clothing.

Could he fit into a 9 year old's clothes?

well he managed to fit into a 9 year old and 1400 years later over one billion people adore him, some humanity is sick

[oxo1947]

I don't know about Mohammed ---but my Kiwi EX wore my stuff all the time, she wore my t-shirt to bed. She wore my jacket when she was cold. She'll even wore my boxers to walk around in.

But when she came home & I was wearing her panties -----just one f*k*ing time, then I have 'serious mental issues' and I have 'overstepped my boundaries'.......

[Lannig]

Homosexuality and Islam apparently go hand-in-glove, considering that geographical region of the planet, where the largest demographic collective of Sodomites, can be found.

Executing all homosexuals would eradicate about 70% of the Muslim male population. Now, there's a thought...............

Hope that Islamic (misnomer) cleric's ideal world "wish" comes true, someday. And, good riddance. Bye, bye...................

Oh my... you using the word "sodomites" makes me think that you would be equally happy to seem them and Muslims wiped from the surface of the Earth, am I wrong?

Stinking troll.