From London, with love: tens of thousands rally against Brexit vote

[jak2002003]

Maybe the protestors and others who are so devastated about leaving the EU could go live in Europe as refugees and claim asylum there.

[impulse]

Maybe the protestors and others who are so devastated about leaving the EU could go live in Europe as refugees and claim asylum there.

Be careful what you wish for.

They're the ones who will be funding the retirements of the "Leavers" for the next 30 years, unless, of course, France offers them a better deal and they leave the UK labor market.

Of course, you can always let in some Middle Eastern refugees to make up the labor and funding shortfall. Doh.

Edited July 3, 2016 by impulse

[NanLaew]

Except that their hasn't been a direct decision, has there?

In what way is 52% leave, not a direct decision?

@ impulse

I've read many of your posts before, and have to say this last post was beneath you.

Have you forgotten your honour and integrity so easily?

"In what way is 52% leave, not a direct decision?"... when it's an ADVISORY from a voters REFERENDUM.

The actions on whether to exit or remain are as yet still undecided.

I read the referendum act itself for this referendum, at no time did it state it was advisory - it is no more advisory than Parliament itself can be considered.

The people that sponsored the legislation (Cameron) himself has indicated the intent was to take let the people decide - and that it was not advisory.

Before the referendum there was no reference to it being advisory.

When a vote is called a referendum their is an implied meaning that the people are being asked to decide -- not to advise.

People who went to the voting booth did not think it was advisory, or 72% would never have bothered to go at all.

The only way it can be considered advisory is some warped interpretation and purposely warping the whole democratic process that the constitution is based on.... where most of what is constitutional or not is actually not even written - it is common law.

Despite some low-level instructions from the leaders of both camps that everyone's individual vote mattered, they failed to explain exactly HOW it mattered and the majority of voters still thought it was just like a general election where a constituency of votes mattered. In reality, every individual vote mattered. The 'electoral' fallacy was maintained by the media insistence in calling the vote by electoral regions, just like an election. Just because the Referendum had to be based on the same voters registration districts as a general election, calling it like a General Election only compounded the misconception. This has created the Regrexit crowd. The relevance of who voted for what from where, how old they were, their education or gender is of absolutely no significance except in the post-mortem of why Remain lost the vote and those who relish playing the divisive game. The Remain lost for the same reasons the Brexits won; a fundamentally flawed perception on how a Referendum works.

I agree that the people were asked to decide but the people can't implement anything that they have decided, only their elected MP's looking out for their constituents best interests can do that. The UK's common law is as precarious as the EU's lack of clarity on how and when Article 50 gets activated; keeping in mind that this is unbroken ground for both parties and not getting anything wrong that sets a precedent for future, easier exiteers is paramount in the EU right now. The whole exercise is at still risk due to capricious inter-party politics in Westminster and in Strasbourg.

[Tatsujin]

Referendum held, results known, "democracy" has spoken, let's get on with it then.

You know the other name for a "non-binding referendum"?

Opinion poll.

If that were the case, Cameron would have carried out an opinion poll - not a referendum.

Miss Andry provided the correct definition of referendum "a general vote by the electorate on a single political question that has been referred to them for a direct decision".

Even Cameron is saying that it was a binding decision! There was never any implication that the referendum was actually just an opinion poll....

And yet, with the clear mandate from a 2% majority of the people (yes, that's sarcasm), Cameron won't pull the trigger. (Or can't pull the trigger?) Because neither a referendum nor a word from the PM is adequate in a representative democracy.

I'm not arguing the merits of the decision. It's the flawed process and false expectations- on both sides.

My belief? Cameron floated the "referendum" to put the issue to bed once and for all. Imagine his shock when his pollsters missed their forecast and it bit him in the ass.

Cameron miscalculated badly in calling the referendum without some additional "rules" in place, such as having a 75% voter turnout, and also needing a clear 60% majority. They weren't included though, so it's too late now to cry over spilt milk.

It's done and finished with, the referendum has been concluded, with the "majority" (however small) choosing to leave the EU.

It's now up to Parliament to vote to actually approve this mandate, trigger Article 50 and then start the negotiations. That's how "democracy" and "the law" work. Anything else will make a mockery of "democracy" in the UK and make the UK even more of a laughing stock around the world.

For those that voted without knowing what they were voting for, well, that's down to you. Your choice. If people can't be bothered to research and understand the implications of what they are voting on/for, then don't vote in the first place, or at the very least, don't complain later that you were lied to or misled. This is "politics", it's been around long enough for everyone to know how it works. Both sides made outrageously inaccurate statements (and many outright bald faced lies), but ALL voters had more than enough opportunity to research things independently and come to their own conclusions/decisions, without blindly accepting all that was said to them.

Cameron's resignation has given the Government a much needed 2 month breathing space at a complicated and emotional time. I also assume he doesn't want to oversee something he didn't agree with, another reason why he chose to resign.

[SgtRock]

There is a general acceptance with European leaders and with UK Politicians that the UK will leave the current entity that is the EU.

Fundamental changes to the EU will occur, what that will be and where it leads is anyone's guess.

The German government has been canvassing support for a senior political leader to gather views in European capitals on a new future for the continent in the wake of the Brexit vote, with the aim of completing the task before the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome next March.

EU heads of state, reeling from the UK’s vote to leave the European Union, want to be seen to be responding to the Eurosceptic mood, and some want a new “vision for Europe” document that distils the conflicting thinking.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/02/brexit-shock-calls-change-eu-european-union

In two years time there will almost certainly be another (advisory) referendum on the re-negotiated terms to remain in a "reformed" EU. Just watch this space!

I actually said this prior to voting day. That regardless of the outcome, I doubted that the UK would leave the EU but fundamental changes would be made within the EU and the UK would stay.

I do not think that the EU is going to reform as such. more a case of a complete and decisive press of the reset button.

The financial predicaments of Greece, Spain, France and Italy are well documented, Italy already have the begging bowls out and are asking for anywhere between 40 - 150 Billion euros, depending on what report is read. The problems these Countries face at the moment are going to be severely compounded when the ECB stops it QE in September, which is running at 60 Billion euro's a month. and has been since March 2015. This was seen by many as a last ditch attempt at saving the eurozone.

Throw into the equation German and French elections next year. The rerun of the Austrian election and Junckers warning to Austria if Hofer wins the election.

As some would say. There really are interesting times ahead.

[up2u2]

Too late knuckleheads. Vote done and dusted. Sorry but if you spend your time being preached to by racist fear-mongering politicians like Gove and Boris than you get what you deserve. Now it's time to eat your lumpy porridge I'm afraid. Next time don't let people deceive you.

[impulse]

And yet, with the clear mandate from a 2% majority of the people (yes, that's sarcasm), Cameron won't pull the trigger. (Or can't pull the trigger?) Because neither a referendum nor a word from the PM is adequate in a representative democracy.

I'm not arguing the merits of the decision. It's the flawed process and false expectations- on both sides.

My belief? Cameron floated the "referendum" to put the issue to bed once and for all. Imagine his shock when his pollsters missed their forecast and it bit him in the ass.

So you are agreeing that the referendum was not an opinion poll - and that the electorate believed (and were not told otherwise) that the result of the referendum would be honoured?

You can argue semantics all day long. It wouldn't be the first time the electorate had false expectations.

[AhFarangJa]

Come back when there are 17 million of you.....

Oh, and by the way....I did not win the Lottery last week.......I demand it is re-drawn please....

[dick dasterdly]

Too late knuckleheads. Vote done and dusted. Sorry but if you spend your time being preached to by racist fear-mongering politicians like Gove and Boris than you get what you deserve. Now it's time to eat your lumpy porridge I'm afraid. Next time don't let people deceive you.

Alternatively, voters weren't convinced by the scare tactics from the remain camp - emergency punishment budget springs to mind.

Quite apart from that, voters made up their own minds based on things they knew - and ignored the scare tactics.

[dick dasterdly]

And yet, with the clear mandate from a 2% majority of the people (yes, that's sarcasm), Cameron won't pull the trigger. (Or can't pull the trigger?) Because neither a referendum nor a word from the PM is adequate in a representative democracy.

I'm not arguing the merits of the decision. It's the flawed process and false expectations- on both sides.

My belief? Cameron floated the "referendum" to put the issue to bed once and for all. Imagine his shock when his pollsters missed their forecast and it bit him in the ass.

So you are agreeing that the referendum was not an opinion poll - and that the electorate believed (and were not told otherwise) that the result of the referendum would be honoured?

You can argue semantics all day long. It wouldn't be the first time the electorate had false expectations.

Thank you for ignoring the question. I think it was you (but could be wrong?) that said the referendum was an opinion poll?

[SgtRock]

Too late knuckleheads. Vote done and dusted. Sorry but if you spend your time being preached to by racist fear-mongering politicians like Gove and Boris than you get what you deserve. Now it's time to eat your lumpy porridge I'm afraid. Next time don't let people deceive you.

It is probably beyond your intellectual capacity to understand that what you have just posted is nothing more than a steaming pile of horse manure.

Keep the insults flowing, it really highlights your limitations.

I blame the skools.

[RickBradford]

Too late knuckleheads. Vote done and dusted.

Yup. Next time, those knuckleheads should get out and vote.

If they're too ignorant to figure out what a referendum is, they have only themselves to blame.

[impulse]

And yet, with the clear mandate from a 2% majority of the people (yes, that's sarcasm), Cameron won't pull the trigger. (Or can't pull the trigger?) Because neither a referendum nor a word from the PM is adequate in a representative democracy.

I'm not arguing the merits of the decision. It's the flawed process and false expectations- on both sides.

My belief? Cameron floated the "referendum" to put the issue to bed once and for all. Imagine his shock when his pollsters missed their forecast and it bit him in the ass.

So you are agreeing that the referendum was not an opinion poll - and that the electorate believed (and were not told otherwise) that the result of the referendum would be honoured?

You can argue semantics all day long. It wouldn't be the first time the electorate had false expectations.

Thank you for ignoring the question. I think it was you (but could be wrong?) that said the referendum was an opinion poll?

A non binding referendum has pretty much the same legal standing as an opinion poll, and poses pretty much the same political risk to elected officials that choose to ignore the results.

In either case, they can do what they choose, and they risk getting voted out. If neither one is binding, how is there a difference? Other than semantics.

[dick dasterdly]

Thank you for ignoring the question. I think it was you (but could be wrong?) that said the referendum was an opinion poll?

So you are agreeing that the referendum was not an opinion poll - and that the electorate believed (and were not told otherwise) that the result of the referendum would be honoured?

You can argue semantics all day long. It wouldn't be the first time the electorate had false expectations.

A non binding referendum has pretty much the same legal standing as an opinion poll, and poses pretty much the same political risk to elected officials that choose to ignore the results.

In either case, they can do what they choose, and they risk getting voted out. If neither one is binding, how is there a difference? Other than semantics.

I give up.

It was obviously an opinion poll/advisory poll, even though this was only brought up after the result and even Cameron thinks otherwise .

[billd766]

A 2nd vote could come along. Don't be so quick to diss the peaceful protestors. It was peaceful protesters against the US war in VN which influenced that war. Initially, powers-that-be were chiding the protesters as a bunch of bedraggled hippies who didn't know how to brush their hair.

I think a 2nd vote would reverse Brexit.

Why SHOULD there be a second referendum at all?

It is not as if the first one was sprung on the UK overnight.

People had plenty of notice about the date and how to register their voting rights.

If they didn't vote it is their own problem.

Brexit won.

Bremain lost.

Get over it. That is democracy.

It was a democratic majority vote in favour of leaving. If the protesters didn't like the result more of them should have voted to remain.

Why should anybody even believe that they have the "right" to change the result just because they didn't like it?

[billd766]

A 2nd vote could come along. Don't be so quick to diss the peaceful protestors. It was peaceful protesters against the US war in VN which influenced that war. Initially, powers-that-be were chiding the protesters as a bunch of bedraggled hippies who didn't know how to brush their hair.

I think a 2nd vote would reverse Brexit.

...and then do we have a third for best of 3? On and on and on and on!

Yes, until a result which is in the best interests of the people is reached

Please explain just who do YOU think should decide what is in the best interests of the people?

You, me, politicians, any political party, the Queen or the Royal Family, the EU, France, Germany, Mickey Mouse?

If you claim that the people of the UK should decide, it may have escaped your notice that 51.8% of the people who ACTUALLY could be bothered to vote which was over 17 million people actually voted for a Brexit.

I was one of them.

From the tone of your posts you voted to stay.

Your side lost.

My side won.

A simple question for you.

If your side had won and my side had lost would you STILL have wanted another referendum?

[impulse]

It was obviously an opinion poll/advisory poll, even though this was only brought up after the result and even Cameron thinks otherwise

Cameron fell on his sword and left it to the next poor sucker to deal with the voters' outrage when a large portion of them learn what it means that Britain has a representative democracy and their elected officials don't have to abide by the overwhelming mandate of 52% of the voters. Regardless of what they thought they were promised when they cast their ballot.

Whether they do abide by the results or not- is not certain. Not by a long shot.

Edited July 3, 2016 by impulse

[ddavidovsky]

All this whining by the losers is contemptible. It's just not British. Just shows how far traditional cultural values have been eroded.

[up2u2]

Too late knuckleheads. Vote done and dusted. Sorry but if you spend your time being preached to by racist fear-mongering politicians like Gove and Boris than you get what you deserve. Now it's time to eat your lumpy porridge I'm afraid. Next time don't let people deceive you.

Alternatively, voters weren't convinced by the scare tactics from the remain camp - emergency punishment budget springs to mind.

Quite apart from that, voters made up their own minds based on things they knew - and ignored the scare tactics.

It is probably beyond your intellectual capacity to understand that what you have just posted is nothing more than a steaming pile of horse manure.

Keep the insults flowing, it really highlights your limitations.

I blame the skools.

Yup. Next time, those knuckleheads should get out and vote.

If they're too ignorant to figure out what a referendum is, they have only themselves to blame.

The entire 'Leave' argument was based on keeping those filthy foreigners out. Typical racist Right Wing clap trap.

What should have been debated was the economic benefits of staying or leaving the EU.

An extra serve of lumpy porridge for you three lol

[MissAndry]

All this whining by the losers is contemptible. It's just not British. Just shows how far traditional cultural values have been eroded.

You're absolutely right!

We British, it's not about winning or losing, it's about how you play the game.

Of course the lefties never really understood morality, honour, duty, integrity, or any of that manly nonsense stuff.

Edited July 3, 2016 by MissAndry

[dick dasterdly]

It was obviously an opinion poll/advisory poll, even though this was only brought up after the result and even Cameron thinks otherwise

Cameron fell on his sword and left it to the next poor sucker to deal with the voters' outrage when a large portion of them learn what it means that Britain has a representative democracy and their elected officials don't have to abide by the overwhelming mandate of 52% of the voters. Regardless of what they thought they were promised when they cast their ballot.

Whether they do abide by the results or not- is not certain. Not by a long shot.

I suspect they'll lose even more popular opinion (from the 'not sure' range) if they decide to ignore the referendum vote.

It was a referendum and always stated as such.

Many will be bothered if the govt. just ignores the outcome - as it will be an obvious statement that democracy is irrelevant.

[impulse]

as it will be an obvious statement that democracy is irrelevant.

That won't be news to most of us.

Just an affirmation of what we've known for decades. And probably our parents before us.

[dick dasterdly]

All this whining by the losers is contemptible. It's just not British. Just shows how far traditional cultural values have been eroded.

You're absolutely right!

We British, it's not about winning or losing, it's about how you play the game.

Of course the lefties never really understood morality, honour, duty, integrity, or any of that manly nonsense stuff.

I'm a 'lefty', and have no doubt that I'm far more moral etc. than most.

You've no idea how much it irritates me to read about the 'lefty' EU as I like the workers rights promoted by the EU.

On the other hand, I seriously dislike the cost and gravy train, plus the idea that poorer countries can enter another country and business will take advantage of this to reduce already poorly paid jobs' wages.

[dick dasterdly]

as it will be an obvious statement that democracy is irrelevant.

That won't be news to most of us.

Just an affirmation of what we've known for decades. And probably our parents before us.

But it would be the first time they've made it so obvious.

[impulse]

as it will be an obvious statement that democracy is irrelevant.

That won't be news to most of us.

Just an affirmation of what we've known for decades. And probably our parents before us.

But it would be the first time they've made it so obvious.

Let's hope it's the trigger that pisses the people off enough to demand reforms.

[mommysboy]

I'm a lefty, righty, capitalist, socialist, with fixed views which are flexible, and I am a pragmatic idealist. I'm fiercely traditionalist, but also believe in change.

I don't understand it myself in all honesty.

I believe this referendum result is a complete dud and I hope it gets binned.

But the winners have to have their pound of flesh if they demand it, because they won.

That is not to say that one can't give them a hard time every step of the way.

Edited July 3, 2016 by mommysboy

[dick dasterdly]

as it will be an obvious statement that democracy is irrelevant.

That won't be news to most of us.

Just an affirmation of what we've known for decades. And probably our parents before us.

But it would be the first time they've made it so obvious.

Let's hope it's the trigger that pisses the people off enough to demand reforms.

As long as those reforms are more democratic rather than less so.

[brewsterbudgen]

A 2nd vote could come along. Don't be so quick to diss the peaceful protestors. It was peaceful protesters against the US war in VN which influenced that war. Initially, powers-that-be were chiding the protesters as a bunch of bedraggled hippies who didn't know how to brush their hair.

I think a 2nd vote would reverse Brexit.

...and then do we have a third for best of 3? On and on and on and on!

Yes, until a result which is in the best interests of the people is reached

Please explain just who do YOU think should decide what is in the best interests of the people?

You, me, politicians, any political party, the Queen or the Royal Family, the EU, France, Germany, Mickey Mouse?

If you claim that the people of the UK should decide, it may have escaped your notice that 51.8% of the people who ACTUALLY could be bothered to vote which was over 17 million people actually voted for a Brexit.

I was one of them.

From the tone of your posts you voted to stay.

Your side lost.

My side won.

A simple question for you.

If your side had won and my side had lost would you STILL have wanted another referendum?

So you genuinely believe that if Brexit had narrowly lost, the likes of UKIP would have just accepted it and not continued to campaign and push for another vote? Dream on!

I just want what is best for the UK and for future generations.

[impulse]

The entire 'Leave' argument was based on keeping those filthy foreigners out. Typical racist Right Wing clap trap.

There's a racist component to it, no doubt. But even limiting the discussion to immigration, there are legitimate concerns about throwing the borders wide open to people who come from countries where they're willing to work for a pittance, to compete with our kids for a dwindling number of decent paying careers as our leaders preside over the mass offshoring of good careers- to be replaced with marginal and low wage, low security service jobs.

And that has nothing to do with racism or filthy foreigners, or even the current events related to terrorism. Just dwindling career opportunities for our kids for the benefit of the corporations who love importing low wage labor.

Edit: Corporations who love importing low wage labor and then exporting all the profits to countries where they won't have to pay taxes on it.

Edited July 3, 2016 by impulse

[dick dasterdly]

...and then do we have a third for best of 3? On and on and on and on!

Yes, until a result which is in the best interests of the people is reached

Please explain just who do YOU think should decide what is in the best interests of the people?

You, me, politicians, any political party, the Queen or the Royal Family, the EU, France, Germany, Mickey Mouse?

If you claim that the people of the UK should decide, it may have escaped your notice that 51.8% of the people who ACTUALLY could be bothered to vote which was over 17 million people actually voted for a Brexit.

I was one of them.

From the tone of your posts you voted to stay.

Your side lost.

My side won.

A simple question for you.

If your side had won and my side had lost would you STILL have wanted another referendum?

So you genuinely believe that if Brexit had narrowly lost, the likes of UKIP would have just accepted it and not continued to campaign and push for another vote? Dream on!

I just want what is best for the UK and for future generations.

Not at all - UKIP would still have stood for election. Any protests etc. would have been ignored if the vote had gone the other way.

Much as is happening now - apart from those desperate to pursue any avenue to ignore the democratic vote.

Edited July 3, 2016 by dick dasterdly