Thailand Referendum: Draft constitution wins approval

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Shall we start with the 2007 that provided for election of 50% of the Senate and now allows no election of the Senate?

Or the new  MMA electoral system that disenfranches millions of voters who have been members of the two largest political parties in the nation from a plurality to a de minimus political faction that must vie with the smallest fractured political ideologies?

Or under the 2007 constitution where people could sue the government to stop projects that short-circuited or completely bypassed public review and environmental studies being disinfranchised under the 2016 constitution that prevents such lawsuits?

In fact even the next elected PM's cabinet potentially stands to be marginalized or disenfranchized by the NCPO under Artile 44 should Prayut have an issue with its makeup.

 

Or the UDD whose leaders have never ever been elected but mysteriously appointed somehow.

 

Or PTP who refused to go for elected provincial governors, but thought appointed by the government to be more democratic.

 

Or PTP ministers calling environmental protesters garbage and warned they'd be arrested if they dare protest. Or holding "invitation" only EIA meetings. 

 

Yep, real bastions of transparency and democracy.

 

But maybe the other alternative is better - where everyone from the president, the two houses, provincial governors, the Sheriffs, the prosecutors, even the dog catchers are elected. Yep, that creates real social and economic utopias, free from corruption. 

[Baerboxer]

37 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Everyone who voted in 2011, and everyone who would have voted in 2014. 

 

Arguably everyone who didn't vote in the referendum because they weren't allowed to become informed through public debates, and everyone who didn't vote because the options were between continued military rule and continued military rule.

 

Of course there remains the issue of the vote count that wasn't independently monitored.  It's possible the answer is everyone.

 

You forgot all those UDD members who didn't get to vote in the UDD leadership elections - because they didn't bother. They were just mysteriously appointed.

 

Even PTP have not suggested irregularities in the vote counting. Was the recent Aussie election subject to independent scrutiny? Or the Breixt referendum? Then why should Thailand? Just because the non elected UDD leader, an out on bail terrorist, thinks it should? 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Baerboxer

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

34 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Everyone who voted in 2011, and everyone who would have voted in 2014. 

 

Arguably everyone who didn't vote in the referendum because they weren't allowed to become informed through public debates, and everyone who didn't vote because the options were between continued military rule and continued military rule.

 

Of course there remains the issue of the vote count that wasn't independently monitored.  It's possible the answer is everyone.

 

I'd say the answer to that question is, pretty much everyone in Thailand who isn't wearing a uniform.

 

Their interests will continue to be well looked after.

 

[heybruce]

13 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You forgot all those UDD members who didn't get to vote in the UDD leadership elections - because they didn't bother. They were just mysteriously appointed.

 

Even PTP have not suggested irregularities in the vote counting. Was the recent Aussie election subject to independent scrutiny? Or the Breixt referendum? Then why should Thailand? Just because the non elected UDD leader, an out on bail terrorist, thinks it should? 

What would happen to a PTP member who suggests the vote count was fixed?  Were the Australian and UK votes held under a military government that took power in coups against an elected governments?

 

Here were the arguments for independent monitoring of the referendum:

 

1.  The current military government staged coups pre-empting the last two national elections.

2.  The military shows arrogance towards rule of law by its involvement in almost every kind of criminal activity imaginable.  http://government.defenceindex.org/downloads/docs/thailand.pdf  

3.  The junta enthusiasts insist that votes in Thailand are routinely corrupted.

4.  The precedent for independent monitoring was established in the 2011 election.

 

What were the arguments against independent monitoring of the referendum?

[heybruce]

14 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I'd say the answer to that question is, pretty much everyone in Thailand who isn't wearing a uniform.

 

Their interests will continue to be well looked after.

 

Let's be fair, we shouldn't condemn everyone in uniform.  Certainly not the enlisted people there against their will. 

 

The many dozens of over-privileged, under-worked, largely unnecessary generals are a different matter.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

31 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

But of course the TVF posters understand all far more clearly than the Thai people.

 

Western colonial arrogance at it's best. Look at Brexit campaigns and the American primaries and now presidential campaigns - hardly full of ethics and honesty. Ask people in any "developed" country to explain the issues in any vote or referendum and most can't. They are led by politicians.  

 

No different here. With the usual Western media being as selective as always on how the report things. including some things, not including others, slightly misleading. 

 

Sadly, politicians the world over exploit such circumstances. 

 

The examples you cite are hardly similar/equal to Thailand.

 

In the U.S. and UK at least, there IS public debate and quite vigorous debate, and lots of news coverage, and different views being spread all over the land. One notion of freedom of speech is that, among the flurry of conflicting and sometimes inaccurate views, people at least have the chance to form their own opinions, and look to different sources of information to compare and contrast.

 

Here, there was no debate, not much news coverage actually talking about the actual meaning and details and impact of the Constitution, and little opportunity for those who wanted to be informed to become so. Just the ongoing views of the government being force -fed to everyone.

 

Whether voters make the effort to become informed is always a legitimate question. But in the latest example here, the rules pretty much dictated against any legitimate forum of ideas/opinions that people could weigh in voting.

\

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Let's be fair, we shouldn't condemn everyone in uniform.  Certainly not the enlisted people there against their will. 

 

The many dozens of over-privileged, under-worked, largely unnecessary generals are a different matter.

 

Just to be clear...I wasn't condemning anyone.

 

I was responding to a question regarding who's interests were looked after, or who was or wasn't disenfranchised in the election. As a class, it's fair to say the military's interests were looked after.

 

For the rest of the population, not so sure.

 

[seajae]

18 minutes ago, heybruce said:

What would happen to a PTP member who suggests the vote count was fixed?  Were the Australian and UK votes held under a military government that took power in coups against an elected governments?

 

Here were the arguments for independent monitoring of the referendum:

 

1.  The current military government staged coups pre-empting the last two national elections.

2.  The military shows arrogance towards rule of law by its involvement in almost every kind of criminal activity imaginable.  http://government.defenceindex.org/downloads/docs/thailand.pdf  

3.  The junta enthusiasts insist that votes in Thailand are routinely corrupted.

4.  The precedent for independent monitoring was established in the 2011 election.

 

What were the arguments against independent monitoring of the referendum?

why is it you red supporters keep pushing that line "against an elected govt". The govt had stepped down on their own volition, the country was under care taker govt and their supporters( the reds) were busy bombing, shooting, killing women and kids all while the caretaker govt were cheering them on which is why the army stepped in and stopped the killing, at least be honest for once and stop the red propaganda. All we are getting now are the same red supporters whinging because they didnt get what they wanted, instead the general populace have voted for it and upset the reds apple cart. The thais have decided what they want, you dont like it, stiff.

[Srikcir]

40 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

But maybe the other alternative is better - where everyone from the president, the two houses, provincial governors, the Sheriffs, the prosecutors, even the dog catchers are elected. Yep, that creates real social and economic utopias, free from corruption. 

There are nations that thrive quite well within the electoral system you imagine as democracies, although you missed election of judges. But to find fault for any electoral system because it doesn't achieve a utopia is just academic laziness to avoid seeing the trees for the forest.

[MobileContent]

8 hours ago, Mosha said:

 

Could be had no choice. Army have recently forced the PYB to step down in this village.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk
 

 

 

Yes you are some how correct. Their was a big meeting in Sakon Nakhon where all the kamnam's have been invited and they passed it on to the PYB's. 

[waitforusalso]

58 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Or the UDD whose leaders have never ever been elected but mysteriously appointed somehow.

 

Or PTP who refused to go for elected provincial governors, but thought appointed by the government to be more democratic.

 

Or PTP ministers calling environmental protesters garbage and warned they'd be arrested if they dare protest. Or holding "invitation" only EIA meetings. 

 

Yep, real bastions of transparency and democracy.

 

But maybe the other alternative is better - where everyone from the president, the two houses, provincial governors, the Sheriffs, the prosecutors, even the dog catchers are elected. Yep, that creates real social and economic utopias, free from corruption. 

It is really pathetic seeing you junta loving, yellow cheerleaders trying to justify this disgusting excuse for a democratic process. Just goes to show how far you've lost the plot.

Edited August 8, 2016 by waitforusalso

[Winniedapu]

9 minutes ago, seajae said:

why is it you red supporters keep pushing that line "against an elected govt". The govt had stepped down on their own volition, the country was under care taker govt and their supporters( the reds) were busy bombing, shooting, killing women and kids all while the caretaker govt were cheering them on which is why the army stepped in and stopped the killing, at least be honest for once and stop the red propaganda. All we are getting now are the same red supporters whinging because they didnt get what they wanted, instead the general populace have voted for it and upset the reds apple cart. The thais have decided what they want, you dont like it, stiff.

 

Oh for God's sake. SSDD.

 

Winnie

[Smarter Than You]

2 hours ago, djjamie said:

58% turnout heay. So when some called the  the shinawatra vote in 2011 a landslide when only 35% of eligibly voters came out then this turnout is a resounding and absolute undeniable vote of approval for the military and its current leadership as it was for the new charter. The people have resoundingly voted in favour of the militaries support.

 

Of no surprise is the typical sour grapes of the minority that now will disrespect this result and thus the majorities wishes. Again highlighting that the majority is only to be respected when it suits the their agenda. The farmers have a long memory and I suspect the 49% that voted yes where the ones that where threatened, disrespected and intimidated under the previous regime.

 

Congrats to the military. The people  majority are behind you and this has legitimised it. 

What planet are you on?

 

The 2011 election had a 75.03% turn out of which the Democrats won 35.15% (11,433,762) of the vote and PTP won 48.41% (15,744,190) of the vote.

Yesterdays referendum had a 55% turnout of which 61% voted yes, this equates to roughly 1/3 of the electorate voting yes ( a very similar number to the Democrats 35% in the 2011 election).

 

Now when we also take into consideration:

 

1.  Public discussion of the vote was banned under the threat of 10 years in jail

2. Thousands and thousands of military and civil servants toured the country pushing the yes vote prior to the referendum

3. Opposition TV channels were blacked out for a month prior to the vote

4. Fingerprints had to be put on your ballot paper meaning authorities could identify what you voted for

5. Bureaucrats  (soldiers, teachers, office workers, nurses, doctors...) were all pressured to vote yes

 

what do we learn.....

 

We come to understand why the Junta and their backers are so frightened of democracy. The absolute best they can do, when they write all the rules to suit themselves, threaten jail to the opposition and squash all dissension is about 35% of the electorate - and even this number is inflated due to the extreme levels of coercion amongst government employees and the fear it induces. Add to this fact that a great many of the elderly back the Junta/Yellows, naturally human mortality is going to reduce this pool of voters rather quickly as well.

 

The old guard can not win elections, they never will again - Abhisit is well aware of this.

 

So Djjamie, continue to write your drivel, distort facts and make things up to suit your own tiny mind but just remember, you've backed the wrong horse - just because your decrepit old nag is leading the field now does not mean it will win the race.

[Smarter Than You]

2 hours ago, djjamie said:

58% turnout heay. So when some called the  the shinawatra vote in 2011 a landslide when only 35% of eligibly voters came out then this turnout is a resounding and absolute undeniable vote of approval for the military and its current leadership as it was for the new charter. The people have resoundingly voted in favour of the militaries support.

 

Of no surprise is the typical sour grapes of the minority that now will disrespect this result and thus the majorities wishes. Again highlighting that the majority is only to be respected when it suits the their agenda. The farmers have a long memory and I suspect the 49% that voted yes where the ones that where threatened, disrespected and intimidated under the previous regime.

 

Congrats to the military. The people  majority are behind you and this has legitimised it. 

What planet are you on?

 

The 2011 election had a 75.03% turn out of which the Democrats won 35.15% (11,433,762) of the vote and PTP won 48.41% (15,744,190) of the vote.

Yesterdays referendum had a 55% turnout of which 61% voted yes, this equates to roughly 1/3 of the electorate voting yes ( a very similar number to the Democrats 35% in the 2011 election).

 

Now when we also take into consideration:

 

1.  Public discussion of the vote was banned under the threat of 10 years in jail

2. Thousands and thousands of military and civil servants toured the country pushing the yes vote prior to the referendum

3. Opposition TV channels were blacked out for a month prior to the vote

4. Fingerprints had to be put on your ballot paper meaning authorities could identify what you voted for

5. Bureaucrats  (soldiers, teachers, office workers, nurses, doctors...) were all pressured to vote yes

 

what do we learn.....

 

We come to understand why the Junta and their backers are so frightened of democracy. The absolute best they can do, when they write all the rules to suit themselves, threaten jail to the opposition and squash all dissension is about 35% of the electorate - and even this number is inflated due to the extreme levels of coercion amongst government employees and the fear it induces. Add to this fact that a great many of the elderly back the Junta/Yellows, naturally human mortality is going to reduce this pool of voters rather quickly as well.

 

The old guard can not win elections, they never will again - Abhisit is well aware of this.

 

So Djjamie, continue to write your drivel, distort facts and make things up to suit your own tiny mind but just remember, you've backed the wrong horse - just because your decrepit old nag is leading the field now does not mean it will win the race.

[BSJ]

As the circus came by I couldn't help but notice the elephants looked tired and had to be prodded frequently to keep them moving in the right direction...or should I say persuaded to follow the leader!

[williamgeorgeallen]

2 hours ago, Winniedapu said:

 

Indeed. The fat lady is singing...

Winnie

2 years and the country has gone backwards very quickly. they keep propagating these list of corrupt officials but we never get to her who is on them and no one ever gets prosecuted. are the people on the lists just buying their way off? i love living in thailand but i see hard times ahead.  

[halloween]

Sour grapes really do make the best whine.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, seajae said:

why is it you red supporters keep pushing that line "against an elected govt". The govt had stepped down on their own volition, the country was under care taker govt and their supporters( the reds) were busy bombing, shooting, killing women and kids all while the caretaker govt were cheering them on which is why the army stepped in and stopped the killing, at least be honest for once and stop the red propaganda. All we are getting now are the same red supporters whinging because they didnt get what they wanted, instead the general populace have voted for it and upset the reds apple cart. The thais have decided what they want, you dont like it, stiff.

 

That's simply not true. There are a lot of posters here who hoped the original coup was going to deservedly remove a thoroughly corrupted, self-serving government and, if it lived up to its promises, replace it with one that was going to root out corruption and restore democracy.

 

Now that a couple years have passed, those original hopes have pretty well been dashed, and an entirely different reality has set in. But to claim that those here disappointed in the election process and the outcome are all red supporters is simply ridiculous and unsupported. There's plenty of reasons to be disappointed that have nothing to do with being a red shirt fan.

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Eric Loh]

Even Mynmar call this a sub-standard charter. That's precious. Really nothing more to add. 

[Smarter Than You]

27 minutes ago, halloween said:

Sour grapes really do make the best whine.

Looks like your a bit too focussed on the short game sunshine.

There is no sour grapes because the Yes "victory" was as pyrrhic as they come.

 

The beginning of the end is upon us (and not just for this wretched coup, but for all hope of any future coups).

 

Today was a win for Democracy, only the simple amongst us don't see the obvious.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Smarter Than You

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I believe, there was something in one of the news reports saying this latest version is something like the 20th (or so) different constitution Thailand has had during its years as a "democracy."

 

I guess about the best thing you say can is, they'll keep trying and trying and trying until they get it right -- someday...

[halloween]

18 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Even Mynmar call this a sub-standard charter. That's precious. Really nothing more to add. 

Doh!

precious adjective (NOT NATURAL)

mainly UK disapproving behaving in a very formal and unnatural way by giving too much attention to details that are not important and trying too hard to be perfect:

[halloween]

7 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

Looks like your a bit too focussed on the short game sunshine.

There is no sour grape because the Yes "victory" was as pyrrhic as they come.

 

The beginning of the end is upon us (and not just for this wretched coup, but for all hope of any future coups).

 

Today was a win for Democracy, only the simple amongst us don't see the obvious.

I forget that reds never do anything wrong - they think they are winning when they've just been handed their butt on a plate. Keep moaning, I love it.

BTW  Today was a win for Democracy, but not in the way you meant it.

[halloween]

11 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

Looks like your a bit too focussed on the short game sunshine.

There is no sour grape because the Yes "victory" was as pyrrhic as they come.

 

The beginning of the end is upon us (and not just for this wretched coup, but for all hope of any future coups).

 

Today was a win for Democracy, only the simple amongst us don't see the obvious.

I forgot that reds never do anything wrong - they think they are winning when they've just been handed their butt on a plate. Keep moaning, I love it.

BTW  Today was a win for Democracy, but not in the way you meant it.

Edited August 8, 2016 by halloween
spelling

[JAG]

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You forgot all those UDD members who didn't get to vote in the UDD leadership elections - because they didn't bother. They were just mysteriously appointed.

 

Even PTP have not suggested irregularities in the vote counting. Was the recent Aussie election subject to independent scrutiny? Or the Breixt referendum? Then why should Thailand? Just because the non elected UDD leader, an out on bail terrorist, thinks it should? 

 

Possibly because neither Australia nor The United Kingdom are run by a military junta that seized power in a coup. Possibly because neither Australia nor The United Kingdom have arrested people who dared to offer opinions which were contrary  to the policies of the incumbent government, possibly because neither Australia nor The United Kingdom have arraigned people who expressed such opinions before military courts, in camera and which carry the possibility of 10 years in jail without appeal. I could go om but I realise there is little point, you clearly regard these tactics as completely justified.

Edited August 8, 2016 by JAG

[JAG]

6 minutes ago, halloween said:

I forgot that reds never do anything wrong - they think they are winning when they've just been handed their butt on a plate. Keep moaning, I love it.

BTW  Today was a win for Democracy, but not in the way you meant it.

 

 

But then your concept of democracy could be said to differ widely from what is regarded as the norm.

 

A bit like your beloved junta really.

[rijb]

6 minutes ago, halloween said:

I forgot that reds never do anything wrong - they think they are winning when they've just been handed their butt on a plate. Keep moaning, I love it.

BTW  Today was a win for Democracy, but not in the way you meant it.

 

"a win for Democracy"   

 

And was it a win for you?    

[JHolmesJr]

Sounds good...too many unscrupulous politicians taking advantage of dumb villagers by offering stupid freebies to buy power.... and then stealing billions for themselves. 

 

Like. 

[MZurf]

Should this referendum result be respected? The last few elections were not respected so why should this referendum?

[JAG]

2 minutes ago, MZurf said:

Should this referendum result be respected? The last few elections were not respected so why should this referendum?

 

Ah, but the last few elections were won by the wrong people.

 

This referendum was won (if a referendum can be said to be won - and I think this one can) by the right people. It took some doing but they managed it.

 

Although i wrote this, I think it is a pretty good precis of politics in Thailand.