Thailand Referendum: Draft constitution wins approval

[JAG]

What is it about farang that refuse to accept a result that was decided by democratic vote?
1st we had Brexit and farang are still crying about it and now we have the referendum and the tears flowing again.

Suck it up fellas!
A great result for the future of LOS

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

Oh I for one accept it.

But I dont think it amounts to an enthusiastic landslide endorsement of the coup and junta, which is inevitably how it will be presented.

We shall of course have to see how it pans out in the mid term, particularly as regards the (Junta) appointed senate and the elected parliament (if we get one); and the selection of a Prime Minister and government. I think ( like several here) that it actually will lead to a deepening of the political schism in Thailand. But it was put to a referendum, albeit on a less than level playing field and it was accepted. So I accept it.

I am however immensely impressed that they had the results within 4 hours of the polls closing!

[Taffyfromflint]

I wonder how many people didn't vote for fear of retribution and how many votes were phantoms

 

[Dagnabbit]

50 minutes ago, phutoie2 said:

Tosh, been following the Headman for years out here, his analysis is spot on and the Beeb news is fair too. Let me guess Daily Mail reader.

 

They don't deliver the Daily Mail where I live in Thailand, so I don't read it. 

 

When you say "their analysis is spot on" - it simply means you agree with their bias.

 

I've met Jonathon a number of times and over the years, his bias has been very clearly pro-Thaksin.  You'd know that talking to him and you'd know it reading his reports. 

[mogo51]

that was the quickest declaration of victory that I have seen, even from 1st world countries.  Gee I had no idea that the Thai Government were so efficient.  Like right!

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, henry15 said:

The simple fact is, that the Thai voter has more trust in the army than in politicians to give them a brighter future, to solve the many economic, politicak and social problems. Even in Isaan its seems they start to realise that. Therefore the small margin between Yes and No.

 

 

 

And that says an awful lot about the scarcity of competent, reasonable, smart, talented, visionary, decent politicians in this country, at this point in time. Most Thais know it. Regardless of how much influence is used to change the face of it, most know there is simply no leader out there, who would be capable of a democratic transition. It is a very sad truth. So, it makes it that much easier for the little man to maintain his power:

 

"It adds that touch of legitimacy to the coup makers," Pavin Chachavalpongpun, an associate professor at the Center for Southeast Asian Studies of Kyoto University in Japan, said after the referendum results were announced. "It gives them the green light for the next few steps they want to take. They will say the opposition cannot say anything now." 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thailand-votes-by-public-referendum-to-make-its-government-even-less-accountable-to-the-people-a7177526.html

Of course, the same exact analysis could be applied to the US, except for the military rule component. But, certainly the lack of talent applies tenfold. 

Edited August 8, 2016 by spidermike007

[oldlakey]

19 minutes ago, JAG said:

Oh I for one accept it.

But I dont think it amounts to an enthusiastic landslide endorsement of the coup and junta, which is inevitably how it will be presented.

We shall of course have to see how it pans out in the mid term, particularly as regards the (Junta) appointed senate and the elected parliament (if we get one); and the selection of a Prime Minister and government. I think ( like several here) that it actually will lead to a deepening of the political schism in Thailand. But it was put to a referendum, albeit on a less than level playing field and it was accepted. So I accept it.

I am however immensely impressed that they had the results within 4 hours of the polls closing!

I visit Thailand 9 - 12 times a year normally on my way to somewhere else but not exclusively so

That is the reason I joined Thai visa so I could keep my finger on the pulse by reading the full range of opinions on display here

Of course there is a lot of genuine correct hard facts on many matters available on here posted by our thinking members

Ok I will get to the point of this rambler it will save the usual suspects from asking what the point actually is 

I might be wrong but I cant detect any mickey taking to put it nicely in the last line of the quoted post

Yes impressive millions of votes cast I assume, then counted in four hours which fact I will take your word for

I would not put too much thought into those facts as you might just arrive at the wrong conclusion

There will be no future in that

After all there must be lots of people in Thailand capable of counting to twenty without taking their shoes and socks off 

 

[ddavidovsky]

The country has stepped further away from democracy and is now at much greater risk of a genuinely disastrous authoritarianism down the road. Who knows who comes next? Lenin meant well - and then came Stalin.

 

Those who say this is good for short-term stability are dangerously short-sighted  - they should read a few history books.

 

There are no checks and balances at all now. I'm thinking of getting out.

[ramrod711]

4 hours ago, tbthailand said:

The funny thing is that the junta fan-boys are delusional. 

 

Spoken like a true Shin hugger, fan boy, etc.

[Johnniey]

14 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

The country has stepped further away from democracy and is now at much greater risk of a genuinely disastrous authoritarianism down the road. Who knows who comes next? Lenin meant well - and then came Stalin.

 

Those who say this is good for short-term stability are dangerously short-sighted  - they should read a few history books.

 

There are no checks and balances at all now. I'm thinking of getting out.

This country has never been nearer REAL Democracy. Certainly in the 31 years I've lived here. 

[VBF]

19 minutes ago, ianf said:

I think you misunderstand: 1) the nature of the average British voter; 2) People do not search for answers and analysis. They absorb headlines and as such are easily manipulated;  3) Democracy is not served by mass circulation low-brow newspapers writing headlines that distort the issue in hand; Given that people are similar the world over in terms of being easily manipulated, I believe that my comparison on the narrow point that I made, stands.

Yes - in that respect it probably does and there is the unfortunate truism that "we all get the Government we deserve". And I agree - people are lazy the world over.

Certainly just reading or watching the mass circulation low-brow media (to paraphrase your comment) is insufficient to form a balanced opinion, and i did mention that "misinformation is ever-present in politics" - by that i meant worldwide.  

However, my point is that in the UK we at least had the opportunity to examine, discuss and debate. That is what is (apparently) denied in Thailand and why I disagreed with your earlier post.

Edited August 8, 2016 by VBF

[Artisi]

42 minutes ago, Dagnabbit said:

 

They don't deliver the Daily Mail where I live in Thailand, so I don't read it. 

 

When you say "their analysis is spot on" - it simply means you agree with their bias.

 

I've met Jonathon a number of times and over the years, his bias has been very clearly pro-Thaksin.  You'd know that talking to him and you'd know it reading his reports. 

I won't enter the discussion or comment on bias or not bias, but only having 1 guy reporting the story as he sees it is of course open to bias or misinterpretation of facts or reporting someone else's bias. 

[oldsailor35]

7 hours ago, HHTel said:

"The people have spoken".  I don't think so.  Everyone I spoke to didn't have a clue what the constitution was about!  My wife went to vote and when she came back she told me that she had voted YES.  When I asked her why, she said that there were people there helping to fill in their ballot papers.  In essence they were crossing the YES boxes then showing the punter how to put it in the ballot box.  My wife didn't even pick up a pencil!!!!

 

Fair and transparant!!!

Here you have the real story !

[djjamie]

58% turnout heay. So when some called the  the shinawatra vote in 2011 a landslide when only 35% of eligibly voters came out then this turnout is a resounding and absolute undeniable vote of approval for the military and its current leadership as it was for the new charter. The people have resoundingly voted in favour of the militaries support.

 

Of no surprise is the typical sour grapes of the minority that now will disrespect this result and thus the majorities wishes. Again highlighting that the majority is only to be respected when it suits the their agenda. The farmers have a long memory and I suspect the 49% that voted yes where the ones that where threatened, disrespected and intimidated under the previous regime.

 

Congrats to the military. The people  majority are behind you and this has legitimised it. 

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed, this is not about Brexit. 

[kingstonkid]

6 hours ago, cmsally said:

It really is deja vu; almost an exact rerun of 2007. A slight win for an army constitution as most people not sure what going on or felt held to ransom. Last time didn't work out so don't have any optimism for this time.

 

I think that is why they added the 5 years senate approved PM.  This will give the people an election with political parties but they will have someone running ths show that is not in anyway owing to the parties.  The interesting thing is what are the powers of the PM if appointed.  Right now the PM represents the majority party.  They have very little political power.  If a majority of the parliament votes for something then it happens.

[oldsailor35]

6 hours ago, AlQaholic said:

Doesn't really matter if this constitution was approved by the masses.....Next government will just make a new one, and then there will be another coup and another "road to happiness" and another charter.....

When the constitution is remade every 5 to 10 years it somehow looses it's merits......whats the point in all of it?

Why don't they just recycle the old ones  in numerical order as it is obvious that nothing new is designed to benefit any other than the party presently in power.

[DM07]

I am really shocked - although, I shouldn't be anymore, by now- by how easy people, who come to Thailand from a "western" "civilized" country, who usually start crying bloody murder, if a ELECTED PRESIDENT or MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT does something, they don't like very much, are totally fine with the military seizing power in a coup and "working out" a charter, which disenfranchizes big parts of the population, rigging "democracy"!

Amazing, really!

[NongKhaiKid]

2 hours ago, Dagnabbit said:

 

Jonathon Head has an opinion, don't confuse that with news.

 

He and the BBC in general are heavily biased when it comes to Thailand.

On this occasion he simply said something that's common knowledge about discussion being banned and many not knowing about the provisions of the new charter.

[oldsailor35]

5 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Does it Matter ???

 

I dont know if anyone has noticed, but even under a military Government, schools, hospitals, expressways, shopping malls are still open and new ones are being built. Thailand still makes and grows things, rice, shoes, hardrives, ball bearings, washing machines, and still exports to the rest of the world. The common law legal system still exists and is functioning.  And the police still look after law and order. 

 

Countries can exists and even thrive without much of a government. 

 

Look at Italy as a country. They have porn stars and formula one drivers for politicians , and the gov changes every 6 months. And they are a G7 nation.

 

I think the western ideal of a democracy, or the illusion of a democracy, is a nice fuzzy feeling of "you do have a say in things"

 

So long as basic services are provided, infrastucture gets built, law and order prevales, and people can find a job or make a business.

 

A couple of years from now, things will be pretty similar. The word military will be missing in reference to the Government.

 

 

WOT   like Myanmar was, a good idea you reckon ?

[aripengu]

1 hour ago, mike324 said:

 

Current situation is because the General wants to rewrite it, nothing to do with 2007 Constitution being bad. We are in the current situation due to corrupt leaders / politicians. Actually if politicians were to strictly abide by the 97 or 07 constitution - the country will in good condition. 

 

The current government is giving themselves a more firm grip on what goes on in politics in future hence the revision. That is the main reason why both the PTP and DEM do not favor the 2016 Constitution.

 

You are correct open dialogue and genuine reconciliation would help, its a concept very hard for politicians to accept.... 

 

For those who are interested in reading a translated version 

http://www.un.or.th/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016_Thailand-Draft-Constitution_EnglishTranslation_Full_Formatted_vFina....pdf

LOL the generals are as corrupt as anybody else in Thailand, the constitution has never been the problem it's people cheating and not following the law and taking shortcuts like mob rule , vote buying and coups.

[Srikcir]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

This referendum was in Thailand.  A Yes/No choice is comparable to HRC/DT choice, and I suspect the turnout here will be considerably higher.

You don't like the result? So sad, never mind.

 

Edit to add - I don't see US Presidents elected with 30% of registered voters changing their political stance. Do you?

The result is a weak mandate that like the 2007 referendum will cntinue to create national conflict. What's to like about that? A referendum on a permanent constitution that irrevovably affects all citizens without recourse is not comparable to election  between political adversaries and their respective ideologies. So sad you think people having different opinions is so sad. 

Your edit - yes I do see political agendas being altered such as in the USA when there's little or no majority support. It's called the reality of the electoral and  legislature processes. HRC has already adjusted her political platform to incorporate some of Bernie's liberalism in exchange for his endorsement. DT has flipped-flopped constantly to get supporters. Politicians get elected based on promises but re-elected based on accomplishments. Only in Thailand when there is a military government under no compulsion to give up ruling is there little or no concern about altering political agendas or ideologies when there is no plurality support. As Prayut has said so often (and I paraphrase)... you may not like me and what I decide but I will proceed according to my own dictates.

[Winniedapu]

5 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

not so many pro army poster left on here. in the 2 years the army has been in power have the actually achieved anything? i am not anti army as such but it seems they are driving away foreign investment and it is going directly to vietnam. there is an impending disaster looming in the manufacturing sector which makes up a large proportion of GDP. manufacturing is far more important than tourism, which also seems to be in trouble.

 

Indeed. The fat lady is singing...

Winnie

[halloween]

20 minutes ago, DM07 said:

I am really shocked - although, I shouldn't be anymore, by now- by how easy people, who come to Thailand from a "western" "civilized" country, who usually start crying bloody murder, if a ELECTED PRESIDENT or MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT does something, they don't like very much, are totally fine with the military seizing power in a coup and "working out" a charter, which disenfranchizes big parts of the population, rigging "democracy"!

Amazing, really!

Who has been disenfrachised?

[halloween]

3 minutes ago, Winniedapu said:

 

Indeed. The fat lady is singing...

Winnie

As is her backing group. Off key as usual.

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, halloween said:

Who has been disenfrachised?

Everyone who voted in 2011, and everyone who would have voted in 2014. 

 

Arguably everyone who didn't vote in the referendum because they weren't allowed to become informed through public debates, and everyone who didn't vote because the options were between continued military rule and continued military rule.

 

Of course there remains the issue of the vote count that wasn't independently monitored.  It's possible the answer is everyone.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Couple of points:

 

1. On the Thai mindset. Asked my mid-30s university-degree wife the other day if she was going to vote, and the answer was no. Asked another question that I pretty much already knew the answer to, had she EVER voted. Same answer no.

 

Asked if she knew anything about the proposed constitution. Answer no. Asked her what she thought about Prayut and the current government, and her only answer was that since Prayut and his merry band took over, the Red and Yellow shirts aren't shooting and bombing anymore (at least, not much). So that's the only thing she's thinking about.

 

Kind of like this:

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2016/08/05/outside-usual-circles-interest-seems-low-sundays-vote/

 

2. On subverting elections. Gotta say, been an observer of foreign affairs and politics for many years. Not uncommon for questionable governments to try to cancel elections, monkey with election results, lock up political opponents, buy votes, either pull people to the polls or try to prevent them from voting, and who knows how many other manipulations.

 

But I must say, I can't recall another past example of a country where they held a supposedly public, national election, and the entire population in effect was told that it's basically illegal to have any public debate on the merits of what's on the ballot. That's reaching a new level of.... (dunno what to call it....).

Edited August 8, 2016 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[waitforusalso]

49 minutes ago, djjamie said:

58% turnout heay. So when some called the  the shinawatra vote in 2011 a landslide when only 35% of eligibly voters came out then this turnout is a resounding and absolute undeniable vote of approval for the military and its current leadership as it was for the new charter. The people have resoundingly voted in favour of the militaries support.

 

Of no surprise is the typical sour grapes of the minority that now will disrespect this result and thus the majorities wishes. Again highlighting that the majority is only to be respected when it suits the their agenda. The farmers have a long memory and I suspect the 49% that voted yes where the ones that where threatened, disrespected and intimidated under the previous regime.

 

Congrats to the military. The people  majority are behind you and this has legitimised it. 

Where do you pull your figures out from? 

Yesterday's referendum; 27.62 million

2011 general election: 32.52m (party list) & 27.5m (constituency)

 

Considering all public servants including educators, all armed forces, local councils, etc. were all instructed to vote YES, I'd hardly call it 'legitimised'!

[mike324]

23 minutes ago, aripengu said:

LOL the generals are as corrupt as anybody else in Thailand, the constitution has never been the problem it's people cheating and not following the law and taking shortcuts like mob rule , vote buying and coups.

 

agree...but they weren't really the problem under normal democracy and elections were they?

[Srikcir]

13 minutes ago, halloween said:

Who has been disenfrachised?

Shall we start with the 2007 that provided for election of 50% of the Senate and now allows no election of the Senate?

Or the new  MMA electoral system that disenfranches millions of voters who have been members of the two largest political parties in the nation from a plurality to a de minimus political faction that must vie with the smallest fractured political ideologies?

Or under the 2007 constitution where people could sue the government to stop projects that short-circuited or completely bypassed public review and environmental studies being disinfranchised under the 2016 constitution that prevents such lawsuits?

In fact even the next elected PM's cabinet potentially stands to be marginalized or disenfranchized by the NCPO under Artile 44 should Prayut have an issue with its makeup.

[Baerboxer]

12 hours ago, NongKhaiKid said:

Prior to the voting there was no discussion of the charter,      the only comments permitted came from official sources.

It was a crime to criticize the proposals and to spread lies,    distorted facts,  misrepresentations etc the definition of which lay with the junta.  Thousands of military cadets were sent out to spread the word to vote and who knows what else they may have said.

 

Now some of the laws can easily be amended by changing a few words so expect an official announcement that it's against the law to discuss or criticize the result and no doubt the biggest No No will be to suggest the final tally was anything less than accurate.

The proposals were  '  passed  '  and every opportunity will be taken to remind the country of it.

 

But of course the TVF posters understand all far more clearly than the Thai people.

 

Western colonial arrogance at it's best. Look at Brexit campaigns and the American primaries and now presidential campaigns - hardly full of ethics and honesty. Ask people in any "developed" country to explain the issues in any vote or referendum and most can't. They are led by politicians.  

 

No different here. With the usual Western media being as selective as always on how the report things. including some things, not including others, slightly misleading. 

 

Sadly, politicians the world over exploit such circumstances. 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Baerboxer