Beach bans on the burkini in France sparks widespread debate

[7by7]

14 minutes ago, i claudius said:

 

 

I find the clothes on the right a little dated but no different from what many western women wear , the Burka is not a normal western garb and to be honest in my old home town i had never seen one until the mosque came and an influx of "new immigrants" now most women wear them and even the men who used to wear western style clothes weat stuff that would not look out of place in the middle east or Pakistan /

 

As has been pointed out by others, the burkini is little different to what Western women were wearing on the beach into the second decade of the 20th century

Which by your own definition makes it outdated but acceptable!

 

If most of the women in your home town wear burqas then the majority of them must be of Middle Eastern origin; in the UK most Muslim women of South Asian origin don't wear the burqa; though many do wear hijabs.

 

Indeed, many young Muslim women have taken to wearing very colorful ones. Not long ago I asked a university friend of my daughter why she had taken to so doing when her mother and older sister don't wear one at all. Her reply was "Fashion, innit!"

 

There is a large Pakistani community where I live. The men wear Western clothes most of the time, as do the women. But many of them do wear more traditional dress when attending the mosque; and why shouldn't they?

[farcanell]

[farcanell]

Let me help you out, Zendo, by putting the word in a sentence.

 

...".You might find it ENLIGHTENING if you bothered to read the supplied definition of the word"

 

fair enough... Your not a native English speaker... Translate it into your own language, which also may be ENLIGHTENING

 

oh look... Two sentences.... and neither of them have any religious connotations.

[SgtRock]

2 Points.

 

1. France is currently still under a State of Emergency. A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

 

2. This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

 

Today, Al Jazeera had a head to head with a French Mayor and some Muslim Civil Rights Activists.

 

In the words of the Civil Rights Activist. Muslim woman wear the burkini to stop their sexualisation and rape. Caveat, he did stop short on who he percieved as being the would be rapists, but I guess he does not understand irony. 

[SABloke]

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 2:40 PM, greenchair said:

Well actually over the years, I have seen a few Thais arrested for immodesty, when wearing even more than a bikini. 

The culture police are very strict. They don't actually have a choice. I have never seen a Thai wearing jeans and a tshirt to go swimming in a foreign country. Generally, they like to relax and blend with the crowd. 

 

Culture Police? Da fuq you smoking man

[Zendo]

52 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Let me help you out, Zendo, by putting the word in a sentence.

 

...".You might find it ENLIGHTENING if you bothered to read the supplied definition of the word"

 

fair enough... Your not a native English speaker... Translate it into your own language, which also may be ENLIGHTENING

 

oh look... Two sentences.... and neither of them have any religious connotations.

 

In my own language it's "illumination".. and there is no way it can't be understood otherwise than "religiously".. French have other word to speak on basic level, it's "éclaircissement" and yes.. i am totally agree then.. sorry I was maybe lost in translation ^^

[Scott]

I think there has been enough hair-splitting over the meaning of words.

 

Stay on topic, please.  

[Zendo]

sure Scott, I'll behave good and focus on burkinis now that i am enlightened enough !

 

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

Today, Al Jazeera had a head to head with a French Mayor and some Muslim Civil Rights Activists.

 

In the words of the Civil Rights Activist. Muslim woman wear the burkini to stop their sexualisation and rape. Caveat, he did stop short on who he percieved as being the would be rapists, but I guess he does not understand irony. 

 

Could you provide a link to this, I couldn't find it on google, links I found are 6 days old.. thanks in advance.

[GuestHouse]

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

2 Points.

 

1. France is currently still under a State of Emergency. A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

 

2. This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

 

Today, Al Jazeera had a head to head with a French Mayor and some Muslim Civil Rights Activists.

 

In the words of the Civil Rights Activist. Muslim woman wear the burkini to stop their sexualisation and rape. Caveat, he did stop short on who he percieved as being the would be rapists, but I guess he does not understand irony. 

 

1. Burqinis cover the body and hair of the wearer, not their face. On point 1 you are wrong. 

2. In July 2009 a woman was prevented from swimming in a Burqini at a French swimming pool http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8197917.stm the French government did not ban full face coverings until September 2010 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312016/Frances-Senate-bans-women-wearing-burka-public.html . On point 2 you are wrong. 

 

Your Al Jazeera head to head is interesting in so much that the arguments, you tell us are made by some Muslim Civil Rights Activists on women's dress and the prevention of sexualisation and rape are exactly the same arguments many people have made in response to the women's movement in the Wests calls for more to be done by the police and government to prevent rape. Linking women's mode of dress to women being subjected to sexual assault and/or rape has for a long time been central to the debate on women's rights to safety on our streets, in work, in college. 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by GuestHouse

[farcanell]

Still laughing Zendo ..... @ 98 ?

Cool response 5555

[Zendo]

My pleasure, I think that fun and laugh is really the best tool to fight ignorance and stupid behaviour , starting by my own one !  and it's never too late...

 

That could be a good way to sort this clothing problems too !

[SgtRock]

1 hour ago, Zendo said:

sure Scott, I'll behave good and focus on burkinis now that i am enlightened enough !

 

 

Could you provide a link to this, I couldn't find it on google, links I found are 6 days old.. thanks in advance.

 

As it was a live head to head, which happened today.

 

You could try the AJ website.

[SgtRock]

1 hour ago, GuestHouse said:

 

1. Burqinis cover the body and hair of the wearer, not their face. On point 1 you are wrong. 

2. In July 2009 a woman was prevented from swimming in a Burqini at a French swimming pool http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8197917.stm the French government did not ban full face coverings until September 2010 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312016/Frances-Senate-bans-women-wearing-burka-public.html . On point 2 you are wrong. 

 

Your Al Jazeera head to head is interesting in so much that the arguments, you tell us are made by some Muslim Civil Rights Activists on women's dress and the prevention of sexualisation and rape are exactly the same arguments many people have made in response to the women's movement in the Wests calls for more to be done by the police and government to prevent rape. Linking women's mode of dress to women being subjected to sexual assault and/or rape has for a long time been central to the debate on women's rights to safety on our streets, in work, in college. 

 

 

 

 

You should actually try reading what is written and not what you think it says.

 

Nowhere did I say that a burkini covered the face. What I did say was it gave people the opportunity to hide their identity. All those hours you spent in suspect recognition and you forgot what a pair of shades can do to a face. Pay attention to detail.

 

Yes, the French did ban the burqa in 2010. I also believe it was not put into force until it was accepted by the ECJ / ECHR which was ruled on in 2015.

 

A swimming pool is not a beach, apples and oranges.

 

When you can come back with stats for bikini clad women who are raped on French beaches there might be something worth discussing. Rapist in general, do  not care much about clothing.

 

 

[Zendo]

Here is the link for AJ video you spoke about : http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2016/08/french-burkini-ban-secularism-security-160817191824853.html

[GuestHouse]

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

 

You should actually try reading what is written and not what you think it says.

 

Nowhere did I say that a burkini covered the face. What I did say was it gave people the opportunity to hide their identity. All those hours you spent in suspect recognition and you forgot what a pair of shades can do to a face. Pay attention to detail.

 

Yes, the French did ban the burqa in 2010. I also believe it was not put into force until it was accepted by the ECJ / ECHR which was ruled on in 2015.

 

A swimming pool is not a beach, apples and oranges.

 

When you can come back with stats for bikini clad women who are raped on French beaches there might be something worth discussing. Rapist in general, do  not care much about clothing.

 

 

 

So let's go back and see what you actually said. 

 

1. France is currently still under a State of Emergency. A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

A Burqini does not cover the wearer's face, it does not give the wearer the opportunity to disguise their facial features any more than a bikini does. Your claim was ungrounded nonsense. 

 

2. This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

 

Now you want to dodge the FACT that a woman was refused entry to a swimming pool in FRANCE one year before the French enacted the burqa ban, because of what, a swimming pool is not a beach? - Are we supposed to completely forget what you said even though its written down for all to see?

Your claim was ungrounded nonsense. 

 

Perhaps the French should ban wearing 'shades' on the beach. 

 

Today, Al Jazeera had a head to head with a French Mayor and some Muslim Civil Rights Activists.

In the words of the Civil Rights Activist. Muslim woman wear the burkini to stop their sexualisation and rape.

 

Are you sure that the AJ report you mention didn't come from the Daily Mail? There's an awful lot of British people share similar views.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.html

Edited August 18, 2016 by GuestHouse

[bangon04]

On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 8:40 AM, greenchair said:

Well actually over the years, I have seen a few Thais arrested for immodesty, when wearing even more than a bikini. 

The culture police are very strict. They don't actually have a choice. I have never seen a Thai wearing jeans and a tshirt to go swimming in a foreign country. Generally, they like to relax and blend with the crowd. 

and the good general has implied that pretty ladies in bikinis are inviting sexual assault by men.  In Thailand it does seem that men make the rules for their women, in a similar but less formal way to the muslims.  If the rape statistics are to be believed in Thailand........ 

[callaway]

Go to a Muslim country and see how you go at wearing swimwear on the beach if you are a woman. Even a one piece let alone a bikini. She would be arrested and jailed. So lets make it a level playing field. No bikinis in UAE and no burkinis in non Muslim countries. Adapt to the country you wish to emigrate to. "When in Rome". This is just the slow introduction of bring the world to Allah. By breeding and flooding countries with immigrants. Fight back now while the war is small or their will be no turning back for your kids in years to come.

[JetsetBkk]

14 minutes ago, callaway said:

Go to a Muslim country and see how you go at wearing swimwear on the beach if you are a woman. Even a one piece let alone a bikini. She would be arrested and jailed. So lets make it a level playing field. No bikinis in UAE and no burkinis in non Muslim countries. Adapt to the country you wish to emigrate to. "When in Rome". This is just the slow introduction of bring the world to Allah. By breeding and flooding countries with immigrants. Fight back now while the war is small or their will be no turning back for your kids in years to come.

 

Are there any Muslim synchronised swimmers in the Olympics? 

 

[philipines]

Great Idea! Those women are prisoners, and their families and friends would beat the crap out of them if they tried to become free of those dreadful clothes.

[GuestHouse]

4 hours ago, callaway said:

Go to a Muslim country and see how you go at wearing swimwear on the beach if you are a woman. Even a one piece let alone a bikini. She would be arrested and jailed. So lets make it a level playing field. No bikinis in UAE and no burkinis in non Muslim countries. Adapt to the country you wish to emigrate to. "When in Rome". This is just the slow introduction of bring the world to Allah. By breeding and flooding countries with immigrants. Fight back now while the war is small or their will be no turning back for your kids in years to come.

 

Does that mean foreigners coming to Thailand for holiday need to stop going to the beach during the middle of the day, turn up on mass just before sunset and bathe with all their clothes on?

 

 

[canuckamuck]

12 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

As has been pointed out by others, the burkini is little different to what Western women were wearing on the beach into the second decade of the 20th century

Which by your own definition makes it outdated but acceptable!

 

If most of the women in your home town wear burqas then the majority of them must be of Middle Eastern origin; in the UK most Muslim women of South Asian origin don't wear the burqa; though many do wear hijabs.

 

Indeed, many young Muslim women have taken to wearing very colorful ones. Not long ago I asked a university friend of my daughter why she had taken to so doing when her mother and older sister don't wear one at all. Her reply was "Fashion, innit!"

 

There is a large Pakistani community where I live. The men wear Western clothes most of the time, as do the women. But many of them do wear more traditional dress when attending the mosque; and why shouldn't they?

Also in the second decade of the 20th century horses were the primary mode of transportation. And telegraphs were used instead of texting. Muslims have had no trouble adapting to smart phones and cars.

[Scott]

It's very heartwarming  to see so many members becoming involved in Women's fashion.   Very metrosexual, I'd say.  

[cumgranosalum]

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

Also in the second decade of the 20th century horses were the primary mode of transportation. And telegraphs were used instead of texting. Muslims have had no trouble adapting to smart phones and cars.

..but apparently you've had difficulty adapting to modern thinking?

[cumgranosalum]

I always cover up on the beach......

 

 

https://www.melanoma.org.au/preventing-melanoma/how-do-i-protect-my-skin/?gclid=CjwKEAjwudW9BRDcrd30kovf8GkSJAB3hTxF-L1nEQKGfHimvnn_tCVwg0_hnoa8y3uL-9RFaM_0xxoCDSnw_wcB

 

[SgtRock]

10 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

So let's go back and see what you actually said. 

 

1. France is currently still under a State of Emergency. A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

A Burqini does not cover the wearer's face, it does not give the wearer the opportunity to disguise their facial features any more than a bikini does. Your claim was ungrounded nonsense. 

 

2. This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

 

Now you want to dodge the FACT that a woman was refused entry to a swimming pool in FRANCE one year before the French enacted the burqa ban, because of what, a swimming pool is not a beach? - Are we supposed to completely forget what you said even though its written down for all to see?

Your claim was ungrounded nonsense. 

 

Perhaps the French should ban wearing 'shades' on the beach. 

 

Today, Al Jazeera had a head to head with a French Mayor and some Muslim Civil Rights Activists.

In the words of the Civil Rights Activist. Muslim woman wear the burkini to stop their sexualisation and rape.

 

Are you sure that the AJ report you mention didn't come from the Daily Mail? There's an awful lot of British people share similar views.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.html

 

What I said is in black and white over 2 posts, that is not the same as your interpretation of what was written.

 

Reading what is written and understanding what is written is not one and the same.

 

I believe that Zendo provided a link to the AJ report I mentioned. It was a live head to head broadcast. So I would very much doubt that it had anything to do with the Daily Fail. Perhaps you should try watching it instead of moving your lips and emitting white noise.

[farcanell]

2 hours ago, Scott said:

It's very heartwarming  to see so many members becoming involved in Women's fashion.   Very metrosexual, I'd say.  

 

This topic is not about metrosexualism.... Please stay on topic

[GuestHouse]

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

What I said is in black and white over 2 posts, that is not the same as your interpretation of what was written.

 

Reading what is written and understanding what is written is not one and the same.

 

 

I have quoted what you have said, word for word and proved in to be completely wrong, word for word. That you are unable to man up and admit the blatantly obvious mistakes in your argument is perhaps the best argument against anything you say. 

 

[GeorgesAbitbol]

9 hours ago, callaway said:

Go to a Muslim country and see how you go at wearing swimwear on the beach if you are a woman. Even a one piece let alone a bikini. She would be arrested and jailed. So lets make it a level playing field. No bikinis in UAE and no burkinis in non Muslim countries. Adapt to the country you wish to emigrate to. "When in Rome". This is just the slow introduction of bring the world to Allah. By breeding and flooding countries with immigrants. Fight back now while the war is small or their will be no turning back for your kids in years to come.

You mean like in Malaysia: 

 

or Indonesia:

[farcanell]

16 hours ago, SgtRock said:

2 Points.

 

1. France is currently still under a State of Emergency. A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

 

2. This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

 

Today, Al Jazeera had a head to head with a French Mayor and some Muslim Civil Rights Activists.

 

In the words of the Civil Rights Activist. Muslim woman wear the burkini to stop their sexualisation and rape. Caveat, he did stop short on who he percieved as being the would be rapists, but I guess he does not understand irony. 

 

 

.... What you said, is indeed in black and white.... Guesthouse added a bit of blue for true.

 

you wanted to make two points, both were erroneous...., as shown.... But there was the rider comment, as well "read into that what you will."

 

Then came deflection.

 

realistically... A man with a motorbike helmet can hide his identity more effectively than a woman in a burkini.... And as men are more often involved in violent acts.... It makes more far more sense to ban motorbike helmets with full face coverings, than a costume that actually allows for a modicum of freedom for Muslim women

 

and realistically, if the burkini was first introduced / designed in 2003, and already in contention in France in 2009, who's to actually say when it was first used there.... But either way, it was definitely around before the burka ban... So reading into that, WHAT I WILL, invites me to suspect, and even suggest, that you are intolerant and suppressive to woman and their civil liberties... 

 

Following this is intelligent bit... Thank goodness.

 

i checked both the AJ site ( thanks Zendo) and the daily mail article ( daily fail, I believe you labeled it), which quoted figures from an amnesty international poll, which were, quite frankly, scary and disturbing (hopefully you don't have a derogatory term for amnesty international, as well) and definitely more relevant towards the publics perception of woman and rape, in general, than the AJ story... But this is an aside from your definitive claims.

 

but by all means... Redefine your claims... Change your POV... that's progress from debate, which i wholeheartedly encourage, per my byline footer.

[farcanell]

Mm... Footer bylines seem to have disappeared with the recent upgrades to TV