Freshman in coma after being forced into a waste water pond during a hazing session

[seajae]

1 hour ago, Anthony5 said:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-36844425

 

Rifles soldier Joshua Hoole dies after Army fitness test in Brecon

 

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/07/29/three-soldiers-die-in-training-this-week.html

 

Three Soldiers Die in Training Last Week

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/1-dead-4-nearly-drown-during-navy-seal-training-2016-n580086

 

1 Dead, 4 Nearly Drown During Navy SEAL Training In 2016

this was not an army training exercise, even if it was a soldier can still refuse to participate as I witnessed a few times over my service years, they cannot force you. A soldier is paid, in this case the student was paying the university who have an obligation of care and as in this case the student nearly drowned they are wholly responsible and who ever was organizing it needs to be charged whether teachers or senior students. How many students have to die in hazing episodes before these morons that allow and organize it grow a brain, my wife was nearly drowned in a hazing event years ago and next year when our daughter attends university  if they try any of the usual crap on her  I will not hesitate to take action on or against them myself, this is not funny, it is simply demoralizing and embarrassing for new students,  I am sure when these seniors are lying on the ground bleeding they will not think it is so funny.

[DM07]

Just waiting for the first f#@$%& to show up and go "When I went to University, hazing was common practice! No one ever saw it as a serious problem! The PC- crowd should loosen up! I had to do X, Y and Z and it didn't do me any bad!"

 

This hazing is idiotic, barbaric and absolutely wrong on so many levels!

End of!

[timendres]

 

3 hours ago, ChoakMyDee said:

All hazing should be banned completely. It is a demeaning and bizarre practice and the participants have no choice...if they refuse, they aren't with the "in" crowd. Any school that allows hazing should have severe penalties.

 

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

The senior management of any school , college, university that allows any type of initiation / hazing to be undertaken, should be sacked on the spot, no but but but, no inactive post, just out the door on their sorry arse - together with the students initiating the event.

 

1 hour ago, iphototjes said:

Attempted murder I'd say. Anyway, hazing is a display of fascism by default and if that is what it takes to become part of the "in-crowd", then I'd rather be proud to tell the incrowd brainless <deleted>, to stick it where the sun don't shine.....

 

This is a very sensitive subject, due to the many incidents of the practice gone bad.

 

However, I was in a fraternity that hazed the pledges. It was not bizarre. It was not bullying. It was not fascism The hazing served a specific purpose, and in my opinion that purpose was entirely legitimate. Mind you, our hazing practiced was designed for a purpose, and reviewed extensively to ensure that it served it's purpose while posing no danger to the participants. Furthermore, any senior member who did not follow the hazing guidelines to the letter was banned from the process.

 

I can say, unequivocally, that the hazing served it's purpose and proved itself many times.

 

That said, too many of those who practice hazing are indeed immature and enjoying a bullying process at the expense of those involved.

 

When the practice was in the spotlight years back, we recommended to our university that, as opposed to banning the practice, they should instead require all organizations with such a practice to submit a summary of their procedures for review. Alas, this simply caused their lawyers to roar with laughter at our ignorance of the legal practice - "sure, let's just expose the university to the legal ramifications of approving your hazing practice!"

[nakhonandy]

Comparing this to the military is ridiculous! 

 

When I was in the training was always supervised by experienced trainers, yes accidents happen but we signed up knowing this. 

 

This student didn't, this is just bullying. 

[jak2002003]

Some poster things hazing serves a purpose....  what purpose is that? 

[Briggsy]

I am familiar with this campus.

 

I can confirm that they have initiations/hazing for new students. You see them, usually in June/July covered in silly foam and wearing large name tags, "Nee", "Ek" and the like.

I can also confirm they hold military cadet training there on some mornings, particularly weekends.

I don't know if the cadets are students of Kasetsart doing their training to avoid conscription.

[sahibji]

charge the morons for attempted murder ( in case the poor boy does not survive).

ragging within reasonable limits is good for establishing bonds but if carried to this limit it is foolish and sadistic.

[sahibji]

1 minute ago, Briggsy said:

I am familiar with this campus.

 

I can confirm that they have initiations/hazing for new students. You see them, usually in June/July covered in silly foam and wearing large name tags, "Nee", "Ek" and the like.

I can also confirm they hold military cadet training there on some mornings, particularly weekends.

I don't know if the cadets are students of Kasetsart doing their training to avoid conscription.

that kind of ragging is acceptable but if you hurt people's  health then it must be stopped.

[sahibji]

10 minutes ago, nakhonandy said:

Comparing this to the military is ridiculous! 

 

When I was in the training was always supervised by experienced trainers, yes accidents happen but we signed up knowing this. 

 

This student didn't, this is just bullying. 

this is sadism more than bullying. they were thrilled to see some body hurt and suffer.

[Briggsy]

Just now, sahibji said:

that kind of ragging is acceptable but if you hurt people's  health then it must be stopped.

This has been going on for ever in Thai colleges. Every year at least one death is reported. Nothing is done. No-one is punished. College administrators distance themselves from events.

 

It is justified under a phee-nong culture. However, I see it as nothing but an opportunity for one group to wield unchecked power over a weaker group. This has proved a very powerful drug for mankind over the centuries.

 

It is irresponsible for the colleges to tacitly condone this behaviour.

[sahibji]

2 hours ago, TheFishman1 said:

Sad story but not only in Thailand this happens

this phenomenon is happening world wide and unfortunately there are always some idiots who carry it beyond acceptable borders.

[NongKhaiKid]

Just now, Briggsy said:

This has been going on for ever in Thai colleges. Every year at least one death is reported. Nothing is done. No-one is punished. College administrators distance themselves from events.

 

It is justified under a phee-nong culture. However, I see it as nothing but an opportunity for one group to wield unchecked power over a weaker group. This has proved a very powerful drug for mankind over the centuries.

 

It is irresponsible for the colleges to tacitly condone this behaviour.

The unis know what goes on but issue careful statements about reasonable ' welcoming ' ceremonies for students to bond etc while claiming to deplore excessive hazing.

They know but don't want to !

[spermwhale]

Murder charges should be coming! This is why I would NEVER EVER EVER allow my child to attend university here. 

[Briggsy]

Precisely, distancing themselves by pretending not to know about the excessive nature and failing to do anything about 19-year-olds being given the right to bully. The whole thing will inevitably lead to a Lord of the Flies situation.

[Docno]

We need to all be a little more cautious in our assumptions and comments here. The OP simply presents the sister's version of events. It may be accurate or it may not be: there are no indications that she directly witnessed what took place and so we don't know what her source of information is. Other news outlets that we can't quote here are telling a very different story from that of the sister. They are saying that the incident took place during a workshop preparing students for a maritime training course and that it happened in the presence of lecturers. Given that the sister has inaccurately described the body of water as a 'waste treatment pond', her other claims should also not be accepted unreservedly.

[Docno]

27 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Some poster things hazing serves a purpose....  what purpose is that? 

 

'Hazing' is simply a form of initiation rite and therefore has a long history in our species. Initiation rites are likely found in every culture on the planet and probably existed in the earliest human societies. They are used by various associations, institutions, and military organisations, and their purpose is to build loyalty (to the group) and social cohesion (to one's new comrades). They have been shown to have this very effect.

 

In fact, in research I did some years ago, I found that the more demanding/stressful a company's hiring process was (think: day-long exercises, multiple interviews and tests, etc.), the more appealing that company was considered.  Moreover, this effect was particularly strong for those who 'survived' a multi-stage hiring process. So, in a sense, elements of a hiring process have the same effect as an initiation rite, building loyalty and cohesion.

 

Of course, hazing should not be life-threatening/dangerous... that can never be defended. That said, I'm not convinced that the incident in the OP involved hazing rather than a training activity gone awry (as reported elsewhere).

 

p.s. I went through a week-long hazing at my university back in the 80s, and the friends I suffered with that week are still my friends to this day (while I can't remember anyone from my classes!)

[kingalfred]

Madness but the reaction of authorities after.. no surprise


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Songlaw]

3 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

Why would anyone want to be 'in' with a crowd that indulges in such barbaric practises? I'd keep them at arms length.

 

As their thing is bathing in a cesspit (or whatever name you want to give it), an arm wouldn't be nearly lengthy enough. 

[dunroaming]

Can't see how this could be compared to being in the army.  People choose to go into the army and they are aware of what that entails.  The army take the appropriate safety measures and monitor what happens at all times.  This is hazing which only the mentally unstable would embrace as fun!

 

Nothing to do with being PC, it is simply a matter of recognising the stupidity of the people involved.

 

 

[Sig]

I've never understood what people see as fun in freshman hazing that is humiliating and even dangerous sometimes. It is incredibly stupid. Not only is it childish and barbaric, it is just plain stupid. The problem at Kasetsart (likely other universities too, but I only have direct experience at KU - specifically, the Bangkok campus) is that the teachers not only allow it, but even encourage it. I've seen it firsthand. Sometimes the teachers even attend the rituals! They tell the students that they aren't allowed to do it (wink wink),  then they attend along with them, all smiles. The teachers of that student's faculty should be arrested, starting with the head of his department, and humiliated at the very least. Any teacher who says they don't know this goes on is a liar. They bear a degree of culpability. Every student in attendance should be expelled for life. Lots of evidence in pics on mobile phones to be had. Unfortunately, I know where this is... And we all know that no responsibility will ever be accepted or placed. A human life for this kind of nonsense!? I pray that kid recovers.
Sad to hear this news....

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Some poster things hazing serves a purpose....  what purpose is that? 

These days:

Humiliation,

bullying,

intimidation,

putting the newbies in their place,

sexual assault in some cases [not this one],

the list is a long one but all basically boil down to

"I am your superior and you will bow to my will"

[TPI]

5 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

Why would anyone want to be 'in' with a crowd that indulges in such barbaric practises? I'd keep them at arms length.

Ah! how could you exist in a Thai Uni if you didn't "fit" in, the whole culture is tuned in to this sort of ritual! So a few die, MEH! They were probably too weak to survive anyway!

[jak2002003]

I don't think this goes on in the UK.. there was no hazing at my University or work.  Don't know about the Army though.  I thought it was just an American thing... guess the Thais are copying America? 

 

It seems like childish bullying to me.  It's not an 'initiation'.... these days we are hopefully past the primitive tribal stage... but I can see some humans still have the mentality of cave men. 

 

Getting pleasure and enjoyment from doing cruel, humiliating and potentially dangerous  things to other humans is perverted.

[KUSRC]

Several points to consider:  

 

1st, for OP that said 'hazing' served a purpose, actually initiations can serve a purpose.  Hazing is often done for the purpose of humiliation and sometimes only for this purpose.  It would be difficult to explain how humiliation can be beneficial for a trainee.  Initiations can be strenuous mentally and physically and when not humiliating, and when the activity contributes to an aspect of the character desired in the trainees it is beneficial.

 

As for the body of water, it is not a swimming pond and it is not a waste water pond.  It does collect rainwater but not other types of water.  It would be best to call it a 'pond.'  It is used for testing various research projects by students at this campus.

 

This thread implies that the students was 'forced' to participate and that if able to say "no" this would have been acceptable. Not true.  Trainees will often not want to opt out of training.  Yes this is still 'forcing' technically.  But not in the sense that the other posts and even the English articles imply.  Willing initiates can still be hurt seriously and it would be hard to justify this risk unless the nature of the trainee required involvement in extreme hazardous activities.  And then, the mitigation of these risks needs to be carefully planned.

 

This activity did not offer potential benefit only unmitigated risk.  No responsible organization would want to engage in such type of activity; military, academic, team, club or otherwise.  And, after an incident such as this, even if the incident was not a 'training exercise' (which it wasn't in this case) and regardless if it was supervised or unsupervised, the upper management would need to accept responsibility.  Meaning, if supervised, those individuals that were in place to supervise are held responsible.  Unsupervised raises the question, "why are dangerous activities unsupervised?" and again the administration or management needs to be accountable.

 

Unsupervised incidents such as this are regrettably very common and the recipe is often the same.  A group of young adults in a perceived power structure such as freshy and upper-class students.  Alcohol?  Most of the time yes.  Then all that is left is bad judgment.  Can be both, "Hey watch me jump off the 3rd floor balcony into the pool."  or "YOU, jump off the third floor balcony into the pool!"

 

If this hypothetical situation occurred by students at a University, the faculty should still take responsibility.

[KUSRC]

6 hours ago, Anthony5 said:

 

So only the info in the OP is credible, all following info as I quoted already post #2 is not.

 

Go on with your selective reading.

 

" the University have denied that it was even hazing at all, moreover a training exercise in which 100 senior staff were in attendance. "

Actually this is also not very accurate reporting.  So what you have are 'conflicting' reports.  This faculty does not even have 100 senior staff...

 

6 hours ago, Anthony5 said:

 

 

1 Dead, 4 Nearly Drown During Navy SEAL Training In 2016

 

The pool related figures also do not include the number of BUDs trainees going unconscious in other swimming activities such as in the ocean.  Or unconscious from beach entry exercises with boats when they crash on the rocks.  These are extremely high risk activities and are also extremely well monitored.  The difference is that this type of training is deemed 'necessary' and what happened with the student in Thailand was completely unnecessary.

[KKr]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

These days:

Humiliation,

bullying,

intimidation,

putting the newbies in their place,

sexual assault in some cases [not this one],

the list is a long one but all basically boil down to

"I am your superior and you will bow to my will"

"Superior"  in no other way than that I am already at least one year in a college.
College ? Rather a Secondary school level activity or vocational school from what I have seen so far.
So how is it that juniors accept this.
Give the seniors a good beating if they engage in sadistic bullying.

Where I come from, people were killed in those beautiful ceremonies for Freshmen students, I did not want to be  part of such an "elite" scum " in-crowd ", and have done better than most of them anyway.  U Y as they say.

[KKr]

4 hours ago, sahibji said:

charge the morons for attempted murder ( in case the poor boy does not survive).

ragging within reasonable limits is good for establishing bonds but if carried to this limit it is foolish and sadistic.

attempted murder in case he survives, murder in case not.

[Bluespunk]

8 minutes ago, KKr said:

"Superior"  in no other way than that I am already at least one year in a college.
College ? Rather a Secondary school level activity or vocational school from what I have seen so far.
So how is it that juniors accept this.
Give the seniors a good beating if they engage in sadistic bullying.

Where I come from, people were killed in those beautiful ceremonies for Freshmen students, I did not want to be  part of such an "elite" scum " in-crowd ", and have done better than most of them anyway.  U Y as they say.

You do realise I was being critical of hazing and outlining the mentality of the thugs behind them, of don't you...

[Anthony5]

1 hour ago, KUSRC said:

Actually this is also not very accurate reporting.  So what you have are 'conflicting' reports.  This faculty does not even have 100 senior staff...

 

 

The pool related figures also do not include the number of BUDs trainees going unconscious in other swimming activities such as in the ocean.  Or unconscious from beach entry exercises with boats when they crash on the rocks.  These are extremely high risk activities and are also extremely well monitored.  The difference is that this type of training is deemed 'necessary' and what happened with the student in Thailand was completely unnecessary.

 

My point being that it was reproted as a training exercise, and that during training exercises swimming in dirty water is no exception anywhere in the world, and that outside Thailand also people die during training exercises.

 

When I googled it I was actually surprised that there were so many fatal accidents.

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, Anthony5 said:

 

My point being that it was reproted as a training exercise, and that during training exercises swimming in dirty water is no exception anywhere in the world, and that outside Thailand also people die during training exercises.

 

When I googled it I was actually surprised that there were so many fatal accidents.

The OP reports no such thing