Customers can refuse paying service charges if they are not clearly stated

[Docno]

3 hours ago, alex8912 said:

No in my west. I never heard of tips being pooled in any normal restaurant. I know many servers. Why would they be pooled?  Some servers make $200+ a night and another one at same restaurant might make $125. I'm from the country that is known for tipping.  No one  pays for broken glass. Sounds like a bit of cheap Charley at your restaurants. Did the staff ever stay more than a month??

 

Depends on the restaurant. Many restaurants require you to pay at a counter even if you have been served at your table. There will often be a Tips jar by the cash register in such places.

[Docno]

1 hour ago, trainman34014 said:

Having lived with a Thai for ten years you learn how they deal with things on a local basis.   My Mrs will not eat at places that have a service charge and she and all her friends quickly learn where those places are.  They believe the owners keep all the money and do not share it with staff,  because that is what the staff tell them !

 

On the prickly subject of tips; 20 baht is normally left, no matter what the final bill was and it has been noted on many occasions that many Thai's leave no tip at all.   This doesn't go down well with our American cousins who are brought up with different idea's to those of us from Europe.   Each to his own.

 

Not sure what kind of Thais you are spending time with, but I've always been impressed by how willing and generous Thais are in their tipping. I don't know if it's do with 'merit thinking' or whether they are simply good hearted people. Here is a CNN survey that indicates that Thais are the most generous tippers in Asia: http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/life/who-biggest-tipper-asia-651512/

[Docno]

4 hours ago, Artisi said:

Never heard of adding a tip to the credit card docket,  and I'm sure the owner will spend half his spare time checking all dockets and making sure they deposit every cent into the tip box. 

I've seen a lot of credit card receipts (the one you sign off on) where there is a space for you to add a tip if you want. Have always wondered how that money would go back to a server, so I usually leave cash on the table (or even better, hand it to the server).

[Jonmarleesco]

7 hours ago, taichiplanet said:

good luck with refusing to pay the charge, easier and cheaper to pay the charge than go to hospital! Probably  the same consumer law that covers warranties, which half the time shops refuse to honour.

As ever, the customer is king. But TiT, with its culture of Mai Pen Rai and saving face, something on which so many p__s poor customer-facing businesses rely.

[dantilley]

4 hours ago, overherebc said:

 

I agree with you but I have seen the ++ without figures and when you ask they tell you 10% plus VAT ( very annoying tax ) etc, however, it would be your fault if you don't ask what the figures are.

 

Well, that would be a bit cheeky, but everyone pretty much assumes that it's 10% service and 7% VAT. If they don't say how much the percentages are, and then something like 15% service appears on your bill, then that would be grounds for not paying it. 

[bark]

4 hours ago, kaiyaibob said:

Really ?? http://news.sky.com/story/pizza-express-accused-of-taking-slice-of-tips-10349856

When i lived in the States; I owned two restaurants for 23 years; and have dozens of friends who owned.

If the customer pays with a visa, Am Ex, Master Card etc. the tip normally go on the card. Then the manager/owner;

has to pay the staff. Most restaurants also pay money from servers tips to Bar, bus boys, and even kitchen staff.

 

[tifino]

it's pretty weird!  the Tip goes onto the docket...

 

unless a Tip is a Federal, or State offical Tax - yes, but...

 

if not, then that must mean the Vendor of the Docket becomes liable for Income tax on the $figure that represents the Tip,

as it is not a tax within itself.

 

Hard see how that can really work?  

please excuse me for pleading ignorance (coming from a country that doesn't 'naturally' tip)

[jabis]

In northern europe many places discourage tipping because of already high wages for service staff - but I do always tip even back there in Mordor, based on how I consider the service, quality of food etc, even it's not of my native culture :) even a small tip can make a lot of difference in the following service. PS. worked as a cook, and bartender in previous life. On topic of service charges on top of the actual prices, I find it a commonplace mostly in places owned by the older generation as well as some former 5 star hotels, find it quite ridiculous practise 

[NoshowJones]

How do we define "clearly stated"? The service charge in small print at the bottom of a restaurants menu? Or hotel booking companies such as Agoda giving you the price of a room, then you find the 17% extra charges as you are about to book the room?

[dantilley]

Both of those would be defined as "clear" I think, yes.

 

If it was buried within a load of other small print, not mentioned at all, or described vaguely like @overherebc mentioned earlier, then we're definitely straying into unclear territory.

 

[NoshowJones]

10 hours ago, court said:

when I see service charges on a receipt I refuse to tip unless I get great services and then I palm some money to the server. I hope the staff actually gets a piece of this money. 555 ya as if 

When I see service charges anywhere, I just walk away. There are plenty establishments who do not carry on in this way.

[NoshowJones]

8 hours ago, dotpoom said:

 

Actually...I noticed in Thailand that the staff do seem to get their tips and each one of them seem to be very honest about putting it in a jar or something for ALL the staff to share.

    It is more a "Western" thing that the owners rip off the staff by pocketing tips.

I would agree with this.

[DGS1244]

7 hours ago, alex8912 said:

No in my west. I never heard of tips being pooled in any normal restaurant. I know many servers. Why would they be pooled?  Some servers make $200+ a night and another one at same restaurant might make $125. I'm from the country that is known for tipping.  No one  pays for broken glass. Sounds like a bit of cheap Charley at your restaurants. Did the staff ever stay more than a month??

Only in America, the rest of us are civilised when it comes to tipping. In US 20 % + I know is not unusual, better to pay a decent wage and forget the tips.

[Bangkok Barry]

1 hour ago, bark said:

When i lived in the States; I owned two restaurants for 23 years; and have dozens of friends who owned.

If the customer pays with a visa, Am Ex, Master Card etc. the tip normally go on the card. Then the manager/owner;

has to pay the staff. Most restaurants also pay money from servers tips to Bar, bus boys, and even kitchen staff.

 

 

Ah, good. A US restaurant owner. How do you justify making - intimidating - your customers into paying a portion of your staff wages, with (in my experience) getting threatened if you refuse?

[Doc46]

Does that have to be in Thai only or Multilingo Like English /Chinese/French /Dutch/Japanese and maybe some Rusky just in case. 

[bark]

On 23/9/2559 at 4:55 PM, Bangkok Barry said:

 

Ah, good. A US restaurant owner. How do you justify making - intimidating - your customers into paying a portion of your staff wages, with (in my experience) getting threatened if you refuse?

What I said was that Most restaurants have tip pools. Some include Busboy/girls. Tips to Bar( they mast drinks), and even the kitchen people. When a server is hired, it is explained, what they pay. Their choice to stay or go. Most of my servers,

made $ 130-170/ night; for working a 6 hour shift.  I paid their wages. They know that without support from Busboys and bartenders, they do not make as much money and are happy to pay. Regarding visa tips. They get all money except the money for tip pool. And percentage of the transaction fee.

Regarding intimidating customers ( what are you talking about). You have been threaten by and owner of a restaurant ?

What a stupid comment. In my restaurant; the customer choice to tip or not tip; their choice.

 

[Bangkok Barry]

7 hours ago, bark said:

 

Regarding intimidating customers ( what are you talking about). You have been threaten by and owner of a restaurant ?

What a stupid comment. In my restaurant; the customer choice to tip or not tip; their choice.

 

 

I was threatened at a restaurant in NYC and shouted at as I walked down the street after leaving. But that's NY I suppose. Service had been average at best and didn't warrant an extra payment. You still didn't explain why, in the restaurant business alone, customers are expected to supplement a worker's wage. I don't know why Americans in particular are conditioned into believing it is a normal thing to do. It isn't. Restaurants in many countries manage to run their business while paying a full wage and without requiring the customer to subsidize the business.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

without requiring the customer to subsidize the business.

 

Think about that very carefully.  Customers don't just subsidize the business, they pay for it entirely.  One way or another.  Through tips, or through higher base prices.

 

No tips and full wages?  Easy.  Just charge more for the food.  

 

I like the tipping plan because it leaves some discretion for me as a customer.  If I'm satisfied with the food and service I leave a good tip.  If I wasn't, the tip reflects it and my inner sense of justice gets satiated, even if my palate didn't.

 

Contrast that, for example, with the theater.  If I go to a movie and it sucks?  I still paid the same and get no satisfaction from having stiffed the ushers.

 

Edit: and that doesn't even begin the discussion on how people's behavior (translated into service level) improves when they can make more money by being nice and attentive.  The problem in Thailand?  Too many Europeans that don't tip, so we Americans almost have to tip in advance to let the servers know they're not dealing with a Euro non-tipper.  It's amazing to me how the atmosphere improves for 20 baht or so.  (Waiting for the Yank bashing...)

 

 

[scorecard]

On 9/23/2016 at 9:15 AM, kennw said:

Does this mean we do not have to pay the "other services" charge added to the bill at major hospitals?

I've already tried getting details of this charge with no success.

 

 

 

Good luck with that. I'm aware of one hospital which adds an extra charge for 'Pregnancy tests' to every bill, 150Baht from memory, regardless of the medical subject at hand and regardless whether the patient is male or female.

 

I've seen numerous patients at the cashier window ask if it's a mistake. Reply is always 'it's standard for all patients in all hospital, money please. 

[Donutz]

Well in theory it makes sense that if no Service Charge was clearly indicated (at the entry and in the menu etc.) that it would only be reasonable to decline paying it as it would be a hidden cost pretty damn close to scamming the customer.  But if is scamming the customer is indeed what the owner of the place is after.. good luck trying to walk away unharmed without paying SC. 

 

And what if the SC is only clearly mentioned in Thai? Those who cannot read Thai would find it impossible to know before presentation of the bill that there is a SC. 

 

And I remember a visit to  Japanese style restaurant in downtown Krungthep. I forgot the name of the restaurant (it has some outlets all over Thailand), the menu was both in Thai and English. On the English side it clearly stated that there was a 10% Service Charge, on the Thai side it did not. Now I was invited by some Thai and they insisted in paying the whole bill rather then me chipping in, I was a guest afterall so they would have non of it. They did not tip the staff because of the Service Charge. I asked them if the Service Charge was only there because there was a farang in the group, and if a Thai only group would not have to pay it, as it was not mentioned on the menu. They said that they always got charged with SC. But I still do not know if that was them beinng polite to me or if that was indeed so. Would be a very nasty surprise to find out about SC upon being given the bill. 

 

Personally I dislike SC, let the customer decide if they tip or not and how much they desire to tip. Plus there is the risk of the owner or manager taking all or a good part of the SC which would not be fair.

 

Having worked as a waiter myself during my highschool and college days, here in NL the waiting staff can most often keep any tips but would ofcourse be expected by their collegues from the kitchen and those in supporting rolls to share a fair amount or being labeled a selfish c*nt. Some restaurants pool all the tips together and devide it in a way they see as fair and just.  Service Charge is very rare might very well not excist at all in NL.  

 

On 23-9-2016 at 4:36 AM, bark said:

Sorry but you are wrong. True only cash tip; but if customer pays with a credit card; the tip shows at the bottom of the card slip. At the end of the shift the server has to cash out with the manager. The manager can take a percentage of the tip; saying he has to pay service charges to Visa etc.

If a customer tips via a debit card or credit card payement then the staff can ofcourse substract this money, it won't go into the pocket of the owner. If for example I had served two customers, both with a bill of 50 euro's and one would give 50 euro's cash (no tip) and the other would pay 55 euro's with a debit/credit card I'd simply substract 5 euro's and hand in 45 euro's in cash to the manager. The owner would receive the other 55 euro's electronically and thus get his 100 euro's just like the total amount of bills would state. That simple. If a restaurant substracts a % from the tip they are selfish ****** .

 

As would a restaurant that deducts broken items from the tips or salary:

On 23-9-2016 at 3:22 AM, DGS1244 said:

No I think it is you that is wrong, having run a number of restaurants in the 'West' , all tips received were place in a box then any breakages losses etc. caused by waiting staff was deducted and the rest shared out to staff equally. 

Now if a staff member destroyed something on purpose that would be a whole other thing but taking money from your staff when they simply do their job... that's just wrong. Never heard of such shameless things. Such an owner and selfish owner is a cheap bastard. 

[bark]

On 26/9/2559 at 5:38 PM, Bangkok Barry said:

 

I was threatened at a restaurant in NYC and shouted at as I walked down the street after leaving. But that's NY I suppose. Service had been average at best and didn't warrant an extra payment. You still didn't explain why, in the restaurant business alone, customers are expected to supplement a worker's wage. I don't know why Americans in particular are conditioned into believing it is a normal thing to do. It isn't. Restaurants in many countries manage to run their business while paying a full wage and without requiring the customer to subsidize the business.

If you don't want to tip then don't go to the restaurant. Servers are paid less, because they get tips. The wage is set by the

government; the same as Minimum wage is set by the government. They get less then the Minimum wage.

Go make your boiled hot dogs; watch TV, and the next morning you can go to work and say you are a get chef.

You are a Bird " Cheap, Cheap, Cheap "

 

[Bangkok Barry]

7 hours ago, bark said:

If you don't want to tip then don't go to the restaurant. Servers are paid less, because they get tips. The wage is set by the

government; the same as Minimum wage is set by the government. They get less then the Minimum wage.

Go make your boiled hot dogs; watch TV, and the next morning you can go to work and say you are a get chef.

You are a Bird " Cheap, Cheap, Cheap "

 

 

Restaurant workers wages are set by the (US) government? And the (US) government sets it below the minimum wage (so a contradiction in terms) because people are expected to tip? I think you're talking up your ar**. And sorry, the rest of your post is unintelligible. You forgot to engage brain before writing.

[JimmyJ]

On 9/28/2016 at 2:31 AM, Bangkok Barry said:

 

Restaurant workers wages are set by the (US) government? And the (US) government sets it below the minimum wage (so a contradiction in terms) because people are expected to tip? I think you're talking up your ar**. And sorry, the rest of your post is unintelligible. You forgot to engage brain before writing.

 

Wrong, he is correct.

This should help you:

https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm#foot1

[JimmyJ]

The following is a very interesting article on a restaurant chain attempting to raise wages and eliminate tipping in the USA.

Sounds easy,  but the article makes clear the difficulty restaurants are finding when they try to change this custom:

 

"Danny Meyer Restaurants to Eliminate Tipping"

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/dining/danny-meyer-restaurants-no-tips.html

 

`

[JimmyJ]

I just noticed that I unintentionally linked to a very short version of the original article I'd read.

 

Just dug up the original, which is very long but very interesting, and helps to understand the problem of trying to escape the American restaurant tipping model:

 

"Danny Meyer1 is eliminating all tipping2 at his restaurants and significantly raising prices3 to make up the difference,4 a move that will raise wages,5 save the hospitality industry,6 and forever change how diners dine.7

Here’s why it matters ⟶"

 

http://ny.eater.com/2015/10/14/9517747/danny-meyer-no-tipping-restaurants

 

`

[Bangkok Barry]

8 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

 

Wrong, he is correct.

This should help you:

https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm#foot1

 

So much for the UNITED States, where each state has a different rule  Anyway, the rest of the world gets along fine without the need for mandatory tipping.

[roo860]

 
 
Good luck with that. I'm aware of one hospital which adds an extra charge for 'Pregnancy tests' to every bill, 150Baht from memory, regardless of the medical subject at hand and regardless whether the patient is male or female.
 
I've seen numerous patients at the cashier window ask if it's a mistake. Reply is always 'it's standard for all patients in all hospital, money please. 

So is it a boy or a girl your having?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[DLang]

I would guess that if you refused to pay, even though it is your legal right to do so, all the Thai staff would attack you violently. Quite possible with the knives from the kitchen.

 

Unless you were in a large group that they didn't outnumber 3 to 1. 

[fruitman]

Just stop with the whole servicecharge-thingy. Make life easyier for all of us. Just one price included VAT and that's it.

 

It's just another way of cheating customers which the thai are experts in.