Is Thailands view on Foreigners really changing?

[mogandave]

Yes, how ridiculous it is that you can invest in the condo in Thailand but must worry if they give you the visa.
 
what can you say about this? but to say maybe best to not invest anything in the place.

So do you think they should not allow people to invest in condos?

[tingtongtourist]

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

So do you think they should not allow people to invest in condos?

 

The condo market here is a dead loss anyway so they could at least give the farang who buy a condo some special visa class.

like investment visa but less than 10 million baht.

 

[mogandave]

The condo market here is a dead loss anyway so they could at least give the farang who buy a condo some special visa class.
like investment visa but less than 10 million baht.
 

You mean like the 600k?

[Cryingdick]

16 hours ago, tingtongtourist said:

Yes, how ridiculous it is that you can invest in the condo in Thailand but must worry if they give you the visa.

 

what can you say about this? but to say maybe best to not invest anything in the place.

 

Here is news for you. Thailand isn't the only country that will sell you real estate with out any guarantee of a visa. Many people invest in projects in foreign countries they do not reside in. You seem to be confusing living in some $20,000 shoe box with investing. 

 

 

[anon537687643]

. They have cheap labor, fullstop. Not an educated populace. Not anything unique that allows them to position (unlike, for example, China). They produce nothing of great benefit. 

Perfectly summarised


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[MikeyIdea]

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:08 PM, mogandave said:

I know it’s different in Europe where it seems everyone is a tight fisted piker, but in the US where people are more generous, no one I know would ever go to a wedding, graduation, funeral or temple empty handed.

What a crappy little world you money-grubbers must live it.

 

 

 

 

No one in Europe I know would go to a wedding, graduation, funeral or temple empty handed. Perhaps there is a link between what seems to be an over-representation of ThaiVisa members who would and the immigration crack down on less desirable foreigners in Thailand. I support that

 

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:08 PM, mogandave said:

What a crappy little world you money-grubbers must live it.

What a wonderful reply, thanks mogandave, that made my day ????

[MikeyIdea]

About going to funerals, weddings, graduations, temples etc.

I always feel welcome when I go to events like that in Thailand. There really is common sense to it and it’s pretty much the same here as in the west, if I had been welcome to an event like that in the west, I am here. I haven’t thought that it was because of the money I gave for over 20 years

 

About friendliness, politeness and the value of family

Depends on the environment of course but I find most Thai’s equally friendly and quite often more polite than westerners, family nearly always means more here than in the West. I haven’t felt anything else for over 20 years now

 

Why is over 20 years ago so significant for me? That is because I realised over 20 years ago that I did something wrong if I wasn’t welcome, I lacked knowledge so it was my fault when I didn’t understand. That realisation made it easier for me to do something about it myself instead of just writing off Thai’s as stupid and cold. I couldn’t have done it faster because it takes several years participating in a Thai environment every day to learn enough to be able to proceed to the next level of learning, this eventually leads on to be able to predict and eventually, after many many years, to be able to understand. It’s a very rewarding process, especially since the language actually is so easy to learn if you learn it the right way, but oh so difficult if you learn it the wrong way ????

 

ThaiVisa members who aren’t shy to voice their shallow opinions about the friendliness and politeness of Thai’s and their core values not even knowing how stupid they sound obviously never passed the first level. They don’t know that the Thai’s have a saying for them: People who don't know speak easily   

Edited November 19, 2018 by MikeyIdea

[tingtongtourist]

13 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

 

Here is news for you. Thailand isn't the only country that will sell you real estate with out any guarantee of a visa. Many people invest in projects in foreign countries they do not reside in. You seem to be confusing living in some $20,000 shoe box with investing. 

 

 

Ok but its not news that many places in Thailand have a terrible market for condos, cannot sell or rent them.

 

If they gave farang a certain visa for just buy a condo, it must to help that market and have a few more farangs duped of a big sum.

 

which im sure they like!

[tingtongtourist]

On 11/18/2018 at 6:52 PM, mogandave said:

 

You mean like the 600k?

 

im lost why you mention 600k

baht?

Edited November 19, 2018 by tingtongtourist
grammar

[mogandave]

im lost why you mention 600k
baht?

Yeah, I don’t doubt that...

[at15]

its no surprise. think about the behavior of farangs in this country, walking around like fat slobs in clothes fit for softcore porn.  being loud and boisterous in public, etc. most thai's are scared shitless of farangs and will go out of their way to avoid them. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by at15

[tingtongtourist]

1 hour ago, tingtongtourist said:

im lost why you mention 600k

baht?

 

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

Yeah, I don’t doubt that...

 

ok genius. if you said 400k or 800k i might be able to make some story out of BS, but 600k??

[Fex Bluse]

Have to agree that for all but the luckiest farang, investing in the Thai condo market is daft. Knew a guy who did that. 8 condos as a recall. Lots loads of money when things went pear shaped. 

 

Thais don't buy used condos because there's an oversupply and because it's so cheap to buy new (and get financing). Condos don't rent or rent low for similar reasons and because there is no tax penalty or other incentive to encourage renting. 

 

Also, almost all the projects are built to total rubbish standards. Anyone been in the ultimate luxury condo on Wireless Road near Sukhumvit on the Krungsri headquarters side? I have as a mate wastes his money there. It's rubbish. 

 

Investing in most things in Thailand, as a farang, is a huge gamble. Real estate is among the most daft. 

[mogandave]

ok genius. if you said 400k or 800k i might be able to make some story out of BS, but 600k??

For 600k you can buy a cons and get a free 20 year visa

[tingtongtourist]

34 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

For 600k you can buy a cons and get a free 20 year visa

 

sounds good

but whats the catch tho?

would probably have to live in some place like Pattaya to get that deal

[Fex Bluse]

@MikeyIdea,

Referring to your post at the end of this, I have a few replies. 

 

First, some profile info, since you seem to think it matters. I've been in Thailand for more than 3 decades. I've owned and run professional consulting firms, have met Thai elites and diplomats and know a good number of the older Thai industry heads (who are still alive). I am married to a wealthy Thai lady from a well to do family of professionals and politicians. I speak Thai reasonably well and can read and write (somewhat) as well. 

 

Friendliness vs Politeness 

On Thai friendliness vs politeness - I have been invited to and attended plenty of events like those you refer to, but I maintain Thais, in the main, are more polite than friendly.

 

Polite is doing something that you think is expected of you, like when Thais are exceedingly polite to other Thais who they regard as being more important than them. 

 

Friendly is something like being exceedingly polite to someone, say a farang, that they do not regard as being more important than them

 

And I guarantee almost ZERO faravg have ever been offered a seat on the metro or shown deference as a similarly dressed/moneied Thai. 

 

Assimilating to Thai culture

I made a go of it in my early years, but I quickly found that the more I tried to be like and accept Thais, the more I had to surrender my own culture, morality, ethics, logic, objective fact, ect. All cultures are not equal in all ways, and there are marked differences in Thai culture and many other cultures, especially many farang cultures, that don't mix. 

 

So, I had to ask myself questions like

 

"is being more Thai and more accepted by them worth me surrendering all my commonsense?" 

 

"is it worth me being willing to break any laws or hurting people without second though because I know there are few consequences?" 

 

"is it worth me developing a myopic view of the world in which I care exclusively about my family and close friends but about nobody else?" 

 

"is it worth me surrendering all intellectual curiosity?" 

 

"is it worth me placing FACE preservation or building above truth?" 

 

Conclusion 

When does a respecting farang decide that to aspire to be something that so conflicts with his own culture and morality and ethics and intellect is disgusting? 

 

[mogandave]

I’ve been offered a seat on the BTS.

[naboo]

6 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I’ve been offered a seat on the BTS.

Was it worth "surrendering all your intellectual curiosity" for that seat? You wouldn't have been offered it had you been thinking like a Farang.

 

@Fex Bluse Really, what was that racist diatribe all about?

[mogandave]

Was it worth "surrendering all your intellectual curiosity" for that seat? You wouldn't have been offered it had you been thinking like a Farang.
 
[mention=291686]Fex Bluse[/mention] Really, what was that racist diatribe all about?

I didn’t take take them

[Fex Bluse]

6 hours ago, mogandave said:

I’ve been offered a seat on the BTS.

Well, I ride almost everyday for years and years and have never seen it happen. Elderly farang always standing and never a Thai would even notice. You are lucky I suppose.

[Fex Bluse]

6 hours ago, naboo said:

Was it worth "surrendering all your intellectual curiosity" for that seat? You wouldn't have been offered it had you been thinking like a Farang.

 

@Fex Bluse Really, what was that racist diatribe all about?

Not sure what you think is racist about the post. The point of the post is to call attention to differences in cultural and national generalized characteristics. We humans are not all the same as much as the PC Brigades want to convince us to downplay differences. Both Farang and Thai (and everyone else) have both good and bad national characteristics that are common among the populations. 

 

And, you can't simultaneously be two polar opposite things. In my view, it's not possible to be Thai and Farang simultaneously. You have to pick one as there are too many conflicting cultural tenets.

[mogandave]

Well, I ride almost everyday for years and years and have never seen it happen. Elderly farang always standing and never a Thai would even notice. You are lucky I suppose.

Yes, and apparently you are not.

[Fex Bluse]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

Yes, and apparently you are not.

 

Correct, quite unlucky in this particular area. Though, our personal anecdotes aside, if one indication of Thai xenophobia or lack thereof is how well long time residents - of all nationalities, Asian and non-Asian - integrate into Thai society, I think the answer is perfectly clear. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Fex Bluse

[mogandave]

Correct, quite unlucky in this particular area. Though, our personal anecdotes aside, if one indication of Thai xenophobia or lack thereof is how well long time residents - of all nationalities, Asian and non-Asian - integrate into Thai society, I think the answer is perfectly clear. 

As I stated in a previous post, the culture is such that people of other cultures are going to integrate completely. You seem to be blaming it on “Thai xenophobia” but I submit it is not much different anywhere.

[Damrongsak]

On 10/6/2016 at 8:08 PM, geronimo said:

To start with, twenty or thirty years ago, the westerner was looked at in awe (generally), and part of that was the scarcity of the species. We were thin on the ground, especially outside the city. ...

40 years ago up in Loei, I was treated well.  Riding my motorcycle, I'd occasionally get waved over at a checkpoint.  I had no license plate, but that didn't matter.  They were just bored and wanted to chat with me.  One time a local (maybe an Indian) accused me of stealing his bike.  Kid fumed a bit but the cops didn't pay attention to him at all. But back then, there might have been all of 10 foreigners in the Amphur Muang. Didn't hurt that I was Peace Corps and assigned to the Thai Land Development Department.

[MikeyIdea]

11 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

@MikeyIdea,

Referring to your post at the end of this, I have a few replies. 

 

First, some profile info, since you seem to think it matters. I've been in Thailand for more than 3 decades. I've owned and run professional consulting firms, have met Thai elites and diplomats and know a good number of the older Thai industry heads (who are still alive). I am married to a wealthy Thai lady from a well to do family of professionals and politicians. I speak Thai reasonably well and can read and write (somewhat) as well. 

Thanks for your reply and your openness. So we both have an understanding of why Thai's do and act the way they do, that's the important thing here because, as you saw from my previous post, I look down on people who voice their opinion without knowing. A good example is Christian missionaries, they went over to a foreign culture to "enlighten" people without even bothering to find out that these people already had a more supporting religion in place, that is just sad and shows a total lack of understanding.

 

11 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

Friendliness vs Politeness 

On Thai friendliness vs politeness - I have been invited to and attended plenty of events like those you refer to, but I maintain Thais, in the main, are more polite than friendly.

 

Polite is doing something that you think is expected of you, like when Thais are exceedingly polite to other Thais who they regard as being more important than them. 

 

Friendly is something like being exceedingly polite to someone, say a farang, that they do not regard as being more important than them. 

Overall I agree, do note though, that rich people generally are more selfish, more polite but less friendly than the middle class who in turn are more selfish, more polite but less friendly than the poor

 

11 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

And I guarantee almost ZERO faravg have ever been offered a seat on the metro or shown deference as a similarly dressed/moneied Thai. 

I have been offered seats. It was of course more common that Thai's stood up and offered their seat to my young daughter who of course didn't need it than offering it to the elderly farang. That is respect and politeness in this culture and no alien has the right to come to Thailand and look down on that. Not aimed at you but just as an overall comment reflecting my personal opinion: Respect the difference please, look down on it and please leave

 

11 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

Assimilating to Thai culture

I made a go of it in my early years, but I quickly found that the more I tried to be like and accept Thais, the more I had to surrender my own culture, morality, ethics, logic, objective fact, ect. All cultures are not equal in all ways, and there are marked differences in Thai culture and many other cultures, especially many farang cultures, that don't mix. 

 

So, I had to ask myself questions like

 

"is being more Thai and more accepted by them worth me surrendering all my commonsense?" 

 

"is it worth me being willing to break any laws or hurting people without second though because I know there are few consequences?" 

 

"is it worth me developing a myopic view of the world in which I care exclusively about my family and close friends but about nobody else?" 

 

"is it worth me surrendering all intellectual curiosity?" 

 

"is it worth me placing FACE preservation or building above truth?" 

Common sense is of course not the same in different cultures, common sense just like logic stems from core values. You are referring to surrendering your common sense based on your farang core values. We should all follow our core values and respect that others have different core values

 

- break any laws or hurting people without second though because I know there are few consequences

The richer Thai's are, the more they intentionally do this, the poorer they are, the less they do it. The poor still end up in situations where they do it because they don't think and plan ahead but at least they feel bad when they do. Similar to the west but much much more distinct here.

 

- "is it worth me developing a myopic view of the world in which I care exclusively about my family and close friends but about nobody else?" 

I don't know if rich Thai's do this but IMO, the middle class and the poor don't

 

- "is it worth me surrendering all intellectual curiosity?"

I don't see that the working middle class in Thailand surrender any intellectual curiosity, I had a great discussion about the War of the Roses with a Thai colleague a while back. She had good understanding of the underlying causes of the conflict and I could not but think that I cannot match this insight when it comes to Thai matters. The poor do both in the west and the east. I doubt the rich here do. Overall, the definition of intellectual curiosity of course includes Thai matters and the ability to see things from a Thai perspective if one decide to live in Thailand. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one

 

- "is it worth me placing FACE preservation or building above truth?" 

Don't understand what you mean here. If this is about the importance of keeping face in Asia, then yes, 4 billion Asians think that is more important than westerners do

 

11 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

Conclusion 

When does a respecting farang decide that to aspire to be something that so conflicts with his own culture and morality and ethics and intellect is disgusting? 

Ehhh, why on earth should anyone aspire to become something that is against their core values? We should follow our core values and respect others.

 

Michael

Edited November 20, 2018 by MikeyIdea
Added reflecting my personal opinion

[MikeyIdea]

4 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

Not sure what you think is racist about the post. The point of the post is to call attention to differences in cultural and national generalized characteristics. We humans are not all the same as much as the PC Brigades want to convince us to downplay differences. Both Farang and Thai (and everyone else) have both good and bad national characteristics that are common among the populations. 

 

And, you can't simultaneously be two polar opposite things. In my view, it's not possible to be Thai and Farang simultaneously. You have to pick one as there are too many conflicting cultural tenets.

Good post, you're right that we can't be two polar opposites but I don't think that we have to pick to be Thai or western as there are too many conflicting tenets. It's all up to core values. It's possible to be very western in terms of one core value and very Thai (Asian) in another. It's just a natural selection that we shouldn't deliberately choose, it should come naturally.  

[Fex Bluse]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

As I stated in a previous post, the culture is such that people of other cultures are going to integrate completely. You seem to be blaming it on “Thai xenophobia” but I submit it is not much different anywhere.

 

 

You really believe that? 

 

All across Europe, with some notable exceptions like Poland, long-time foreign residents are well-integrated into the cultures of the respective countries. They have close national friends.

 

The United States and Canada has the same characteristic, in the main. Though there are plenty of racist xenophobes, they are not the majority, and, unlike Thailand, their ranks are not well represented among the more educated and wealthy Americans. 

 

Australia is probably the most integrated country on earth owing largely to their friendly demenour and cultural openess.

 

Singapore is largely the same though a different flavor. 2 out of 5 people in Singapore are foreign born. Walk around Singapore, and witness locals and foreigners interacting and getting along beyond transactional relationships. 

 

Latin America is full of integration as well. Brazil and Chile, for example, have large populations of Japanese. And they even elected one to public office. 

 

Even in places like Indonesia and China (with reservations), there is far more integration. Actually, Thailand is probably most like China. East Asians generally are among the most xenophobic on earth. 

 

Thailand is fairly unique in the acutely low integration rate. I imagine the same result would be seen in a country like North Korea if it opened up its borders and immigration. How many westerners or non Thais have made it big here, in hundreds of years of tourism and immigration? How many in public office? How many business tycoons? How many groups of expats and locals do you see going to lunch together in the business districts? 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Fex Bluse

[Fex Bluse]

@mogandave

 

Thailand among least racially tolerant countries, if certain studies are to go by. Who would have thought so, huh? With their "Thai smiles" and all... Half the culture comes from India, as we all know. The other half, from China, basically, and we know how tolerant they are. 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.c1f712bec61d

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Fex Bluse

[mogandave]

You really believe that? 
 
All across Europe, with some notable exceptions like Poland, long-time foreign residents are well-integrated into the cultures of the respective countries. They have close national friends.
 
The United States and Canada has the same characteristic, in the main. Though there are plenty of racist xenophobes, they are not the majority, and, unlike Thailand, their ranks are not well represented among the more educated and wealthy Americans. 
 
Australia is probably the most integrated country on earth owing largely to their friendly demenour and cultural openess.
 
Singapore is largely the same though a different flavor. 2 out of 5 people in Singapore are foreign born. Walk around Singapore, and witness locals and foreigners interacting and getting along beyond transactional relationships. 
 
Latin America is full of integration as well. Brazil and Chile, for example, have large populations of Japanese. And they even elected one to public office. 
 
Even in places like Indonesia and China (with reservations), there is far more integration. Actually, Thailand is probably most like China. East Asians generally are among the most xenophobic on earth. 
 
Thailand is fairly unique in the acutely low integration rate. I imagine the same result would be seen in a country like North Korea if it opened up its borders and immigration. How many westerners or non Thais have made it big here, in hundreds of years of tourism and immigration? How many in public office? How many business tycoons? How many groups of expats and locals do you see going to lunch together in the business districts? 
 

Yes, I really believe that. I worked in an industrial area of Thailand and had lunch with Thai nationals regularly, saw plenty of other westerners having lunch with their coworkers as well.

I can’t speak with any certainty about Europe, but as as far as I can tell their cultures are pretty similar. Generally social-democracies with Judeo-Christian values being abandoned for secularism. It very similar to the US, albeit the US is still clinging to capitalism at least in the short term.

When someone emigrates from New York to Alabama, they don’t fit in, but they generally assimilate quickly. When someone immigrates from Mexico to California, they do not. More often than not, it’s usually the second generation before they actually truly fit in.

This is nothing new, it was the same 100 years ago with the Italians, Chinese, Irish, Ukrainians etc. Often the immigrants never really assimilated, but lived in well defined areas where they bring their culture with them.