May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

 

The so what is that Cameron wasn't negotiating Brexit, this lot are. 

 

Apparently British Industry doesn't share your optimism neither do the Japanese who have huge investments in the UK. So I will go with the people actually at the sharp end rather than your complacent attitude.

 

Just one of many examples,

Britain’s car industry has called on the Government to accept that transitional deal to leave the EU is necessary to stop the automotive sector falling off a “cliff edge”.

 

But hell what do they know about it.

 

What British car industry would that be nowadays?

 

The majority of cars built in the UK are Japanese, Indian or German.

 

The "British" car industry died decades ago under the combined weight of Bolshevik unions and terrible British management and IMO it was a good thing too.

 

You have such a negative attitude that trying to follow or debate with you is a waste of time.

[pitrevie]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

What British car industry would that be nowadays?

 

The majority of cars built in the UK are Japanese, Indian or German.

 

The "British" car industry died decades ago under the combined weight of Bolshevik unions and terrible British management and IMO it was a good thing too.

 

You have such a negative attitude that trying to follow or debate with you is a waste of time.

Well no one forced you here once again and judging from that last little rant you don't have that much to contribute.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

What British car industry would that be nowadays?

 

The majority of cars built in the UK are Japanese, Indian or German.

 

The "British" car industry died decades ago under the combined weight of Bolshevik unions and terrible British management and IMO it was a good thing too.

 

You have such a negative attitude that trying to follow or debate with you is a waste of time.

Automotive is one of our largest export sectors accounting for 10% of exported manufactured products

 

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-KPMG-EU-Report.pdf

 

Brexiters don't seem to know much!

Edited July 12, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

Remember when the threat of Turkey joining the WU was held up as a reason for Brexit? Yes you do!

 

Now Erdogan says Turkey is giving up on the EU and now wants to get into bed with the UK directly post Brexit!

 

Isn't that nice! Just like Happy Families! We already have Saudi in our hand so Turkey will fit nicely ?

[Flustered]

10 hours ago, SheungWan said:

NAFTA and TPP.  Yeah right. Top of  Donald Trump's agenda. Some people seemingly just channel hopping in a desperate search to find something they can sign on for.

How is the Italian Minister channel hopping unless you are referring to me for looking at all sources of news rather than the Indi or the Gordian.

 

This was a qualified response from an elected member of the Italian Parliament unlike the reports in the British press and the BBC

[Flustered]

7 hours ago, pitrevie said:

Yeah good idea lets go with the Italian economics minister and not our own Finance Minister or UK business leaders or even the concerns expressed by Japanese business leaders. Seems to me an Italian economics minister is an ideal source if you want economic advice. 

 

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Not clinching a deal by the end of the 2-year period does not mean that the UK will not have access to the EU market.

 

NAFTA? Sure, enjoy if you consider that UK products will do better in America than in continental Europe.

 

What worries me is the negativity you show. Given your lead, Britain would forever be a subservient country to the EU and anyone who wanted to put us down.

 

Why are you so weak and cowardly. Stand up for your country and have some backbone instead of kowtowing to Frau Merkel and co.

 

Probably too much to ask that you all grow a pair and proudly fly the British flag.

[pitrevie]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

 

What worries me is the negativity you show. Given your lead, Britain would forever be a subservient country to the EU and anyone who wanted to put us down.

 

Why are you so weak and cowardly. Stand up for your country and have some backbone instead of kowtowing to Frau Merkel and co.

 

Probably too much to ask that you all grow a pair and proudly fly the British flag.

What worries me is the lack of confidence you have in your country. Germany became the strong man of Europe by growing a pair of b***s after a catastrophic defeat. All we get is from the Brits is whinging about the nasty Germans trying to dominate us. 40 years of making excuses, demanding special treatment, opt outs because we couldn't begin to compete with the Germans so we end up wrapping the flag around ourselves nowhere more in evidence than when England play Germany at soccer.

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

What worries me is the lack of confidence you have in your country. Germany became the strong man of Europe by growing a pair of b***s after a catastrophic defeat. All we get is from the Brits is whinging about the nasty Germans trying to dominate us. 40 years of making excuses, demanding special treatment, opt outs because we couldn't begin to compete with the Germans so we end up wrapping the flag around ourselves nowhere more in evidence than when England play Germany at soccer.

You have described yourself completely. Your admiration for the Germans is now in print.

 

While there are those of us who want to get on and become an independent country subject to our laws set by our elected MPs, there are a number who simply want to let the UK become a Brussels one size fits all.

 

These people need to grow a pair and start supporting the UK rather than the EU. If you do not like the FACT that we are leaving, go and live in the EU, there are plenty of countries who would accept you (or would they?).

[pitrevie]

Just now, Flustered said:

You have described yourself completely. Your admiration for the Germans is now in print.

 

While there are those of us who want to get on and become an independent country subject to our laws set by our elected MPs, there are a number who simply want to let the UK become a Brussels one size fits all.

 

These people need to grow a pair and start supporting the UK rather than the EU. If you do not like the FACT that we are leaving, go and live in the EU, there are plenty of countries who would accept you (or would they?).

What is wrong with admiring success do you have some sort of inferiority complex? Of course I admire the way Germany has rebuilt itself after its total defeat what is there not to admire about that I just wish the British could emulate them instead of whinging and complaining. 

Why should I leave my country just because it voted by a narrow margin to leave the EU. Did you consider leaving the UK when it voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU?

However it is yet another example of the intolerance of those who voted Brexit which amounts to,  we won by a narrow margin so the rest of you should shut up and accept the result or leave. I hope the Remain camp continues to fight for a return to the EU just like those who could not accept the overwhelming vote in the first referendum campaigned for a re-run yes that right a second referendum until they got the result they wanted and not as you constantly try to claim that it is the Remain camp that wants a second referendum.

 

 

 

[Orac]

Remember when the threat of Turkey joining the WU was held up as a reason for Brexit? Yes you do!
 
Now Erdogan says Turkey is giving up on the EU and now wants to get into bed with the UK directly post Brexit!
 
Isn't that nice! Just like Happy Families! We already have Saudi in our hand so Turkey will fit nicely [emoji6]

It was the UK who were trying to get Turkey into the EU in the first place against opposition from most of the rest of EU.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-10767768

[pitrevie]

2 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

It was the UK who were trying to get Turkey into the EU in the first place against opposition from most of the rest of EU.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-10767768

 

Boris Johnson British Foreign Secretary.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/27/boris-johnson-says-britain-will-now-help-turkey-join-eu-despite/

 

[Flustered]

5 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

 

Why should I leave my country just because it voted by a narrow margin to leave the EU. Did you consider leaving the UK when it voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU?

 

 

 

 

And here we have the problem. You simply do not understand what the EU is and how it was formed.

 

We (myself included) voted to join the EEC (Common Market) not the EU.

 

The referendum we have just had was the first time anyone in the UK has had the chance to vote on the EU and we voted OUT.

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

And here we have the problem. You simply do not understand what the EU is and how it was formed.

 

We (myself included) voted to join the EEC (Common Market) not the EU.

 

The referendum we have just had was the first time anyone in the UK has had the chance to vote on the EU and we voted OUT.

It is true; it has to be accepted.

[pitrevie]

6 minutes ago, Flustered said:

And here we have the problem. You simply do not understand what the EU is and how it was formed.

 

We (myself included) voted to join the EEC (Common Market) not the EU.

 

The referendum we have just had was the first time anyone in the UK has had the chance to vote on the EU and we voted OUT.

Not really the EU is a continuation of the EEC of course it has evolved if it hadn't then that would have been another whinge for the anti marketeers. This was the second referendum on the same organisation. When the EU was renamed we didn't all leave the EEC to join the new organisation. So the Remain camp has every much a right to campaign for another referendum as Brexiters had.

As our Brexit Secretary David Davis stated, if a country cannot change its mind then its no longer a democracy.

Edited July 12, 2017 by pitrevie
spelling correction

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, Flustered said:

You have described yourself completely. Your admiration for the Germans is now in print.

 

While there are those of us who want to get on and become an independent country subject to our laws set by our elected MPs, there are a number who simply want to let the UK become a Brussels one size fits all.

 

These people need to grow a pair and start supporting the UK rather than the EU. If you do not like the FACT that we are leaving, go and live in the EU, there are plenty of countries who would accept you (or would they?).

 

re your comment to me above;

 

why you drag me into this merkel-admiration germany-admiration

support the eu

let uk become a brussels one size fits all?

 

beats me, I'm none of the above

 

[Johnyo]

4 hours ago, pitrevie said:

Another moderate Brexiter!

 

A viscount who offered money on Facebook for anyone to run over and kill anti-Brexit campaigner Gina Miller is facing jail after being convicted of sending menacing messages.

 

Miller was one among many people who campaigned for the Remain side who received death threats and hate mail.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/11/man-jail-offering-money-run-over-gina-miller-rhodri-philipps-viscount-brexit

 

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, pitrevie said:

Not really the EU is a continuation of the EEC of course it has evolved if it hadn't then that would have been another whinge for the anti marketeers. This was the second referendum on the same organisation. When the EU was renamed we didn't all leave the EEC to join the new organisation. So the Remain camp has every much a right to campaign for another referendum as Brexiters had.

As our Brexit Secretary David Davis stated, if a country cannot change its mind then its no longer a democracy.

Again you show your lack of understanding of the EEC and the EU. The EU is not a natural evolution of the EEC it is an entirely different beast.

 

The EEC was a simple free trade area, a common market. The EU is a political organisation that encompasses trade.

 

We were taken into the EU without any debate or vote as all parties wanted to get the big snouts into the EU gravy train of expenses, foreign trips and extra jobs for the political elite. They all sold us down the river. Now thanks to UKIP (Thank you UKIP) we have had our chance to vote on it and we voted OUT.

 

 

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

re your comment to me above;

 

why you drag me into this merkel-admiration germany-admiration

support the eu

let uk become a brussels one size fits all?

 

beats me, I'm none of the above

 

Who named you or dragged you into anything? I never even linked you or mentioned your name. Have you been at the creme de menthe?

[pitrevie]

13 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Again you show your lack of understanding of the EEC and the EU. The EU is not a natural evolution of the EEC it is an entirely different beast.

 

The EEC was a simple free trade area, a common market. The EU is a political organisation that encompasses trade.

 

We were taken into the EU without any debate or vote as all parties wanted to get the big snouts into the EU gravy train of expenses, foreign trips and extra jobs for the political elite. They all sold us down the river. Now thanks to UKIP (Thank you UKIP) we have had our chance to vote on it and we voted OUT.

 

 

Who named you or dragged you into anything? I never even linked you or mentioned your name. Have you been at the creme de menthe?

And apparently they occupy the same building have the same members  and additional new members. Its like a company that changes its name, because it encompasses new areas of expertise. 

 

Britain's membership of what was then primarily an economic union came into effect on 1 January 1973. Since then the Community has developed into a much broader entity, the European Union, which was formally created by the Treaty of Maastricht of 1992. The terms of Britain's agreement to the Treaty received parliamentary approval in the European Communities (Amendment) Act of 1993, and the Union came into force in November 1993.

 

I take it that you are not in favour of parliamentary democracy as the establishment of the EU was agreed to by the UK  and received Parliamentary approval. 

 

It is now of course for the next generation to demand a third referendum on the subject which will take us back into the EU.

 

As for gravy trains I don't think legislators have ever needed the EU to lead the way there.

[Flustered]

25 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

And apparently they occupy the same building have the same members  and additional new members. Its like a company that changes its name, because it encompasses new areas of expertise. 

 

Britain's membership of what was then primarily an economic union came into effect on 1 January 1973. Since then the Community has developed into a much broader entity, the European Union, which was formally created by the Treaty of Maastricht of 1992. The terms of Britain's agreement to the Treaty received parliamentary approval in the European Communities (Amendment) Act of 1993, and the Union came into force in November 1993.

 

I take it that you are not in favour of parliamentary democracy as the establishment of the EU was agreed to by the UK  and received Parliamentary approval. 

 

It is now of course for the next generation to demand a third referendum on the subject which will take us back into the EU.

 

As for gravy trains I don't think legislators have ever needed the EU to lead the way there.

You still do not understand. 

 

We joined a common market, no mention of political union, just free trade. That is what we voted on.

 

From then it did not develop, it was fundamentally changed into a political union. This required numerous treaty changes, not developments. We never had a say on whether we agreed or not, all political parties wanted in hence the birth of UKIP. Now thanks to uKIP, we the British people have had a referendum on whether or not we want to be part of a political union and we said NO.

 

I suppose it helps to have been around when the Common Market was formed and to follow it to our membership and the to our betrayal by the political elite.

 

And your opening statement show how little you understand the change from the EEC to the EU. This is not your fault, just the way in which the various Governments have tried to whitewash the move but many of us remember all to well.

 

[pitrevie]

19 minutes ago, Flustered said:

You still do not understand. 

 

We joined a common market, no mention of political union, just free trade. That is what we voted on.

 

From then it did not develop, it was fundamentally changed into a political union. This required numerous treaty changes, not developments. We never had a say on whether we agreed or not, all political parties wanted in hence the birth of UKIP. Now thanks to uKIP, we the British people have had a referendum on whether or not we want to be part of a political union and we said NO.

 

I suppose it helps to have been around when the Common Market was formed and to follow it to our membership and the to our betrayal by the political elite.

 

And your opening statement show how little you understand the change from the EEC to the EU. This is not your fault, just the way in which the various Governments have tried to whitewash the move but many of us remember all to well.

 

I understand full well but what you do not understand is that I don't accept your interpretation of what transpired. It was obvious from any reading of what the founding fathers intended for the EU that it was never going to remain just as a one function entity and that eventually it would increase tremendously in size scope and function. In fact it was Thatcher who agreed to the single market and that also received Parliamentary approval.

By the way I was around when we went into the EEC and voted in favour and it appears I have read a lot more about it than your own superficial understanding reveals. I can remember at the time Thatcher signed up to the Single Market thinking that a common currency was inevitable.

There was no betrayal other than those who will forever cling to their Little Englander dreams.

At each stage every treaty has been approved by the UK Sovereign Parliament whether it be Rome Lisbon Maastricht or agreeing under Thatcher to the Single European Act. 

As I stated you appear not to be a fan of Parliamentary Democracy.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

Again you show your lack of understanding of the EEC and the EU. The EU is not a natural evolution of the EEC it is an entirely different beast.

 

The EEC was a simple free trade area, a common market. The EU is a political organisation that encompasses trade.

 

We were taken into the EU without any debate or vote as all parties wanted to get the big snouts into the EU gravy train of expenses, foreign trips and extra jobs for the political elite. They all sold us down the river. Now thanks to UKIP (Thank you UKIP) we have had our chance to vote on it and we voted OUT.

 

 

Who named you or dragged you into anything? I never even linked you or mentioned your name. Have you been at the creme de menthe?

Why are Brexiters always so jealous? Blessed are the cheese makers!

 

I don't think EU staff and MEP salaries and expenses are insanely high. OK, savings can always be made (e.g. Strasbourg) but wouldn't it be good to concentrate on quality? Achievement? The UK has not done well frombeing parsimonious ?

 

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Grouse

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I understand full well but what you do not understand is that I don't accept your interpretation of what transpired. It was obvious from any reading of what the founding fathers intended for the EU that it was never going to remain just as a one function entity and that eventually it would increase tremendously in size scope and function. In fact it was Thatcher who agreed to the single market and that also received Parliamentary approval.

By the way I was around when we went into the EEC and voted in favour and it appears I have read a lot more about it than your own superficial understanding reveals. I can remember at the time Thatcher signed up to the Single Market thinking that a common currency was inevitable.

There was no betrayal other than those who will forever cling to their Little Englander dreams.

At each stage every treaty has been approved by the UK Sovereign Parliament whether it be Rome Lisbon Maastricht or agreeing under Thatcher to the Single European Act. 

As I stated you appear not to be a fan of Parliamentary Democracy.

The EEC was much more than the common market that was sold to the British public in 1973/5 but we were broadly duped and this fact has been shared by me and others on TV many times over the last year. 

 

Thatcher was originally one of the architects of the single market and signed the Single European Act but that was way after our entry into the EEC (about 15 years later). You are also wrong about her views on the single currency (Euro) and when the time was close that we might have joined it she was openly totally against it.

 

The free movement of “workers” was not controversial in 1973 as the standards of living of EEC members was similar. Since the accession of the former communist Eastern European states (into the EU) the resulting high migration flows into the UK that have been increasing and more and more of an issue.

 

Repeating myself, the main betrayal was by Heath, who told the electorate that signing the Treaty of Rome would lead to "no essential loss of national sovereignty". Heath later admitted to this lie. I have been in favour of leaving since realizing this and also the extent to which sovereignty has already been lost. Subsequent major constitutional changes along the way (such as Maastricht) should have been referred to the people (referendums) but they weren't. 

 

Our parliamentary democracy is probably the best in the world but its relevance is being ever-diminished under EU influence and would effectively die if we stay in the EU.   

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, Flustered said:

Again you show your lack of understanding of the EEC and the EU. The EU is not a natural evolution of the EEC it is an entirely different beast.

 

The EEC was a simple free trade area, a common market. The EU is a political organisation that encompasses trade.

 

We were taken into the EU without any debate or vote as all parties wanted to get the big snouts into the EU gravy train of expenses, foreign trips and extra jobs for the political elite. They all sold us down the river. Now thanks to UKIP (Thank you UKIP) we have had our chance to vote on it and we voted OUT.

 

 

Who named you or dragged you into anything? I never even linked you or mentioned your name. Have you been at the creme de menthe?

 

you did,

you may want to check post#7896 above

 

no, am not into sweet lady drinks

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by melvinmelvin
typo

[nauseus]

57 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why are Brexiters always so jealous? Blessed are the cheese makers!

 

I don't think EU staff and MEP salaries and expenses are insanely high. OK, savings can always be made (e.g. Strasbourg) but wouldn't it be good to concentrate on quality? Achievement? The UK has not done well frombeing parsimonious ?

 

 

 

Juncker and senior officers and commissioners all close to or above £300k with allowances. MEPs on over £150k with allowances.

 

More than 8.25 billion Euros total expenditure in 2015 for EU administration. Not insanely high? How can the EU not be embarrassed by paying so much money to so many morons? What quality do any of these any so-called leaders in the EU hierarchy have? Diddly-squat is what. 

[Flustered]

2 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I understand full well but what you do not understand is that I don't accept your interpretation of what transpired. It was obvious from any reading of what the founding fathers intended for the EU that it was never going to remain just as a one function entity and that eventually it would increase tremendously in size scope and function. In fact it was Thatcher who agreed to the single market and that also received Parliamentary approval.

By the way I was around when we went into the EEC and voted in favour and it appears I have read a lot more about it than your own superficial understanding reveals. I can remember at the time Thatcher signed up to the Single Market thinking that a common currency was inevitable.

There was no betrayal other than those who will forever cling to their Little Englander dreams.

At each stage every treaty has been approved by the UK Sovereign Parliament whether it be Rome Lisbon Maastricht or agreeing under Thatcher to the Single European Act. 

As I stated you appear not to be a fan of Parliamentary Democracy.

Wow, what an ego you have. You consider yourself so above everyone. no wonder you have trouble understanding the basics of the EEC and EU.

 

In case your memory is giving you trouble, let me remind you of the wording of the referendum.

 

""Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?" 

 

See, nothing about a political union so don't tell me that it was obvious that the "founding fathers" always meant this or that. There were no "founding fathers" just a bunch of politicians looking out for their own interests. There was no future of the European Union put forward to the general public, the Government with the blessing of all sides just took us deeper in without asking for approval.And as for parliamentary democracy, if no option is given, it is not democracy, it is dictatorship. The British public were never given the chance to vote against it until this last referendum.

 

I think you need to read up a bit more as you clearly have no case to put forward and your responses are not worthy of debate.

[Flustered]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Why are Brexiters always so jealous? Blessed are the cheese makers!

 

I don't think EU staff and MEP salaries and expenses are insanely high. OK, savings can always be made (e.g. Strasbourg) but wouldn't it be good to concentrate on quality? Achievement? The UK has not done well frombeing parsimonious ?

 

 

Grousey,

 

I had a girl who worked for me whose father was an MEP. He was on so many quangos, he had no time to do any actual EU work. All of these quangos provide extra pay and perks. Then we have the professional politicians, the Kinnocks. Never did a days honest work in their lives yet both went on to  be commissioners drawing huge salaries and doing nothing for us, the general public.

 

It is a gravy train for retired MPs. Just take a look at the MEPS over the years, it's full of MPs who have lost their seats and have no qualifications to do useful work in the real world.

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

you did,

you may want to check post#7896 above

 

no, am not into sweet lady drinks

 

My apologies, you got caught up in a reply aimed at Mr Ego. Sometimes TVF does not delete links when you think it has. I had linked the wrong posts and thought it had been removed when I posted.

[Scott]

If a post needs to be removed due to technical errors in the quote, use the report button. 

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, Flustered said:

You have described yourself completely. Your admiration for the Germans is now in print.

 

While there are those of us who want to get on and become an independent country subject to our laws set by our elected MPs, there are a number who simply want to let the UK become a Brussels one size fits all.

 

These people need to grow a pair and start supporting the UK rather than the EU. If you do not like the FACT that we are leaving, go and live in the EU, there are plenty of countries who would accept you (or would they?).

Independent State not Country. Please get it right for once.....As for the our laws and elected MPs (aka parliamentary democracy) trilled to the sounds of Last Night At The Proms it fair brings tears to my eyes when uttered by our forum Conspiracy Theorist Hard Brexiteers who not so long ago were vehemently demanding Royal Prerogative (don't laugh) and simultaneously being fans of Vladimir Putin well known fan of the democratic process. All bogus of course, but so nicely wrapped in a Union Jack.

[Flustered]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Independent State not Country. Please get it right for once.....As for the our laws and elected MPs (aka parliamentary democracy) trilled to the sounds of Last Night At The Proms it fair brings tears to my eyes when uttered by our forum Conspiracy Theorist Hard Brexiteers who not so long ago were vehemently demanding Royal Prerogative (don't laugh) and simultaneously being fans of Vladimir Putin well known fan of the democratic process. All bogus of course, but so nicely wrapped in a Union Jack.

Normally I couldn't be bothered to reply as I have just been for my walk in the village talking to the peasants, but just for you......

 

The United Kingdom is a country that includes England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Island.  Its official name is “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” 

https://www.infoplease.com/world/world-geography/difference-between-uk-great-britain-england-and-british-isles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom

https://www.thoughtco.com/united-kingdom-great-britain-and-england-1435711