Why doesn't Thailand offer Permanent Residency base on marriage?

[louse1953]

3 hours ago, impulse said:

To us, it looks like a guy is to be applauded for taking on the financial upkeep of a Thai woman and family.

 

To them, it looks like some foreigner has deprived a Thai guy of the opportunity to have a family with her.

 

Perhaps they don't really want to encourage that by offering incentives like PR?

 

Edit:  Just to be clear, I don't agree with it.  But I do see the twisted logic of it.

Do we really want our permanent stay in Thailand in the hands of our wives.Pretty good bargaining power there.

[Sydebolle]

You cannot have your cake and eat it. The only way would be PR which is very easy, if you fullfill their requirements being: 

- earning enough money (I hear THB 110'000/month) and paying taxes accordingly

- have Thai dependents (i.e. wife, underage kids etc.)

- be an investor

 

The rest is a walk in the park; I made it almost 30 years ago and I have lots of friends who went down the same avenue. 
 

Thailand clearly does not want the cheapies and the cheaties; a lesson most European countries could learn.

Should you not make THB 110'000 a month then you still could pay taxes on this or THB 120'000/monthly. Taxation is based on your yearly earning and gets painful once you hit the THB 3.5million + league. 

[Deepinthailand]

22 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

they are going to have to do something at some stage as the birth rate has fallen to about 1.6, no where near what thailand needs to sustain its population. economies with falling populations generally dont preform very well.

And given someone PR is going to stop the fall in births how exactly!!! 

And can you give us some links for this coment from yourself

 from what i have seen probably more than 80% western/thai relationships end in less 10 years. i know a few that have gone past 10 years but even those are because kids are involved. 

I expect not it's just your thoughts.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Deepinthailand

[ubonjoe]

28 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

 from what i have seen probably more than 80% western/thai relationships end in less 10 years. i know a few that have gone past 10 years but even those are because kids are involved. so i guess this is a fair point about what happens to permanent residents after divorce. what happens in other countries? do permanent residents keep there residency status?

I have been married for about 15 years. I know some couples that have been married for close to 50 years.

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

I have been married for about 15 years. I know some couples that have been married for close to 50 years.

Any time off for good behavior?

[impulse]

7 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

The rest is a walk in the park; I made it almost 30 years ago and I have lots of friends who went down the same avenue. 
 

Thailand clearly does not want the cheapies and the cheaties; a lesson most European countries could learn.

Should you not make THB 110'000 a month then you still could pay taxes on this or THB 120'000/monthly. Taxation is based on your yearly earning and gets painful once you hit the THB 3.5million + league. 

 

Quite a bit has changed in the 30 years since you went down that avenue.  I'd be interested in an update from someone who's actually done it successfully in the current environment.

[williamgeorgeallen]

2 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

And given someone PR is going to stop the fall in births how exactly!!! 

And can you give us some links for this coment from yourself

 from what i have seen probably more than 80% western/thai relationships end in less 10 years. i know a few that have gone past 10 years but even those are because kids are involved. 

I expect not it's just your thoughts.

i dont know why i reply to you. i really dont. all you want to do is provoke an argument.

allowing guys to move here on some permanent basis to marry thais and start families must increase birth rates. 

a link to what? what on earth are you talking about? these are not my thoughts, this is what i have observed over the last decade. again i am going to tell you to stop looking for arguments and only post when you have something productive to add. that means not  quoting dads army as well. move on unless you have something to add.

[jonclark]

49 minutes ago, Farang99 said:

Why should they grant PR based on anything at all? Thailand is a sovereign nation and needs take no notice of what other countries offer. It has its own laws and sees no need to change them for a bunch of people who are tired of living under the constant threat of losing their permission to stay here.

 

Hmm. I think you missed the point of the OP. Its not just the individual (in this case the foreigner) that suffers that fear, but also the wife, children and probably the extended family.  It seems to be an unusally one sided arrangement. Which needs a slight re-balancing. 

 

It amazes me that given the perceived wealth of foreigners in the eyes of Thais, why longer term residents with families etc who clearly pay there way aren't encouraged to stay. Encouraging foreigners who have integrated to stay, encourages investment and the establishment of more SMEs with family ownership. And given the pretty poor state of rice farming, this is one of a whole portfolio of measures that could help the economy gain traction. 

 

Just odd that fear and nationalism, trumps logic, compassion and economic development? 

[jonclark]

16 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

And given someone PR is going to stop the fall in births how exactly!!! 

And can you give us some links for this coment from yourself

 from what i have seen probably more than 80% western/thai relationships end in less 10 years. i know a few that have gone past 10 years but even those are because kids are involved. 

I expect not it's just your thoughts.

 

I think what is being alluded to is the idea that countries with low birth rates and a growing elderly population often seek to encourage migration to maintain a viable workforce. Old people don't work as long, hard or if at all than the young. So migration and migrants makes up the shortfall. 

 

 For example Canada (2001) passed  the immigration and refugee protection act. As a result of this Immigration has increased and most migrants are gainfully employed in a range of occupations and contributing to taxes and the economic growth of Canada. As a result in part of this act, Canada has managed to sustain growth in its labour markets and avoid the brain drain affecting many countries. Inherent to this is the integrating of foreign workers into Canadian society To qualify for Canadian PR you must live and work in Canada for 2 our of 5 years (+other criteria). 

 

Canada serves as a useful benchmark against which to compae Thailand and its success. 

 

[gk10002000]

A poor system by most measures.  Not really knowing the history, I suspect it came about sometime after the vietnam war, when Thailand was seeing a lot of Foreigners, Americans that were hitching up with Thai women.  Just a guess.  Some of the old timers can maybe chime in and discuss what the policies were many years ago.

[connda]

2 hours ago, arithai12 said:

I think the point is not the trouble of going to Imm for the visa or the reports. It is the uncertainty. Even you, so happy at the moment, could find yourself in dire straits if something changes in your family situation or if the government decides to tweak some parameter.

Exactly my point.

[Deepinthailand]

18 minutes ago, jonclark said:

 

I think what is being alluded to is the idea that countries with low birth rates and a growing elderly population often seek to encourage migration to maintain a viable workforce. Old people don't work as long, hard or if at all than the young. So migration and migrants makes up the shortfall. 

 

 For example Canada (2001) passed  the immigration and refugee protection act. As a result of this Immigration has increased and most migrants are gainfully employed in a range of occupations and contributing to taxes and the economic growth of Canada. As a result in part of this act, Canada has managed to sustain growth in its labour markets and avoid the brain drain affecting many countries. Inherent to this is the integrating of foreign workers into Canadian society To qualify for Canadian PR you must live and work in Canada for 2 our of 5 years (+other criteria). 

 

Canada serves as a useful benchmark against which to compae Thailand and its success. 

 

But this thread is about getting PR if married not opening up thailand to younger immigrants.

[Deepinthailand]

46 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

i dont know why i reply to you. i really dont. all you want to do is provoke an argument.

allowing guys to move here on some permanent basis to marry thais and start families must increase birth rates. 

a link to what? what on earth are you talking about? these are not my thoughts, this is what i have observed over the last decade. again i am going to tell you to stop looking for arguments and only post when you have something productive to add. that means not  quoting dads army as well. move on unless you have something to add.

I have asked s legitimate questions. if you post things you need to back them up just saying 80% of thai/western marriages fail and then saying they only stay together for the kids without a shred of evidence is at best silly. you really do have some serious issues. If you don't like people questioning your baseless replies don't add anything which is not worthwhile which Is 80% of what you post.

Ps you have have absolutely no authority to tell anyone not to post.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Deepinthailand

[gamini]

6 hours ago, connda said:

I married the year that I came to Thailand, well before I understood the inflexibility of the immigration system.  Since then, it's been a learning process. Now I'm looking at this thought the lens of basic human rights.  International human rights organizations view families as "institutions to be protected", which is to say that a family, once established, should not be under the constant threat of being broken apart.  And yet, here we are. 

So it's a big deal to go to immigration once a year to get your visa renewed and then post 4 letters a year or go online to do your 90 day report. And the annual fee a mere bt1,900. Here it's one of the easiest places and cheapest places in the world to reside here if you want to.

[1FinickyOne]

11 minutes ago, connda said:

Exactly my point.

 

Connda - no disrespect but your fears seem to be stoking unnecessary anxiety. Enough people in other countries suffer when they are divorced or a change in family situations... and aren't many of the expat Brits around the world suffering the consequences of the devaluation of their money? 

 

I am sure that you and I both have had problems arise in our lives and when the next one does, hopefully we will be able to deal with it. At this point, I do not see any imminent threat to my life here, but if it happens, I will adjust. 

 

I don't think we can control everything in life, but if you were planning a move to Japan or Russia or New Zealand, would you honestly expect that they might change their laws to suit you? 

[Bangkok Barry]

7 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

My brother bought a house near an airport. Now he spends all his time complaining about the noise of the planes flying overhead. It is the way it is. You've spent 10 years in Thailand. Surely you've realized that by now?

 

He knows the way it is. He's asking WHY.

 

I've been married to a local for over 25 years and still cannot stay in the country for more than 90 days at a time, without holding a large sum of money in the bank. We live very comfortably in a house that I bought for us, but I can't make the amount required to just sit in the bank. Then there is still the 90 day reporting, as if you are a criminal on probation. After 25+ YEARS!

But on the subject of human rights being violated, which the OP mentioned, I am at the same time also forbidden from living in my native UK with my foreign wife as my pension income doesn't meet the recently introduced minimum income requirement. So I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[gamini]

You have to earn your permanent residence in Singapore by contributing something to the country. In Australia and New Zealand you have to be qualified so you contribute something to the country. Some of you who have posted here think that the Thai government wants a lot of good for nothing lowlife farangs  who contribute nothing to the country. Many just marry a bar girl in order to stay here.  They also complain about the fact that immigration has to check up to make sure that they are really married and not just using marriage as an excuse to get a Visa.

[Bangkok Barry]

3 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

There s a procedure based on Permanent residemce you can obtain.

But their are other rules for that process.

Part of it is working in Thailand and a proven record of paying Thai taxes into the tax system for a set time.

That is not required by marriage to a Thai national, but is part of a permanent residency requirement.

Many countries have such requirements, the U.S. and the U.K. included.

I may agree with what you say, but there are restrictions on the rights to bringing family members into the country such as brothers and sisters of your spouse.

That is their rules.

 

 

 

 

 

We ALL pay taxes, every time we shop. We give support to all Thai businesses, from the mega-stores to those selling in the local market. Often with foreign-earned income. It means nothing to the Thais. We are aliens, End of. They simply don't care what we feel or want.

[ttkeric]

I thank the OP for basically ranting off what I've exactly always wanting to rant, and I'm only in my late 30s! I'm married to a wonderful Thai lady and we've just had our first child.

 

The insecurity/uncertainty is a serious matter. Sometimes, my wife in a very Thai way tells me not to "think about it too much" but really, who on earth can be certain that tomorrow or even the next 10 seconds their lives will remain the same?

 

I'm certainly not going to be putting my eggs in Thailand's basket, so to speak. But I come from Malaysia, which is very, very near compared to a lot of you fine people here.

 

(FYI, over there, to bring a foreign spouse over, you'll only have to visit the immigration twice, maybe thrice, at most. The first time's to submit your forms and have the officer make an evaluation. Then, depending on the outcome that evaluation, you may be granted an initial pass for half a year as a "probationary" period (Btw, you'd have already been on  a 1 year social pass on the basis of being married to a local) or the officer will just give you a visa straightway up to the expiry of your passport. After 5 years of living in the country as a spouse of a national, you'll be granted a full PR. I should also mention it's legal to work anytime on a spousal visa.  Payments? A small, token sum the first time for the paperwork and administrative fees. A bond, fully refundable when you exit the country or when you're made a PR. For your protection really).

 

I truly feel for that who came from places far and wide. 

 

You've raised a family, am a responsible spouse and parent yet all these can be torn away abruptly.

[NoshowJones]

To me this is the post of the year, the very reason I get a bit upset about these "permanent" residents who go on about  us being "guests" in this country.

Before the "if you don't like it, go home brigade" start, Thailand is still better than the UK, apart from what the OP says, the only really big downside here is the poor mentality of the drivers and motorbike riders.

Every single word in this OP is true from start to finish. There is nothing to stop the Thai government granting permanent residency to expats who have been married for ten years, if they are good quality people as most of them are.

[SaintLouisBlues]

10 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

He knows the way it is. He's asking WHY.

He's not asking at all. He is, in the nicest possible way and I mean no disrespect, having a rant

[connda]

14 minutes ago, gamini said:

So it's a big deal to go to immigration once a year to get your visa renewed and then post 4 letters a year or go online to do your 90 day report. And the annual fee a mere bt1,900. Here it's one of the easiest places and cheapest places in the world to reside here if you want to.

You are missing the point.

[williamgeorgeallen]

15 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

I have asked s legitimate questions. if you post things you need to back them up just saying 80% of thai/western marriages fail and then saying they only stay together for the kids without a shred of evidence is at best silly. you really do have some serious issues. If you don't like people questioning your baseless replies don't add anything which is not worthwhile which Is 80% of what you post.

Ps you have have absolutely no authority to tell anyone not to post.

all i did is post my observations. what i have seen. you are asking me to prove what i have seen happening here? 10 years of working and living in thailand. what sort of proof do you want to see?

[NoshowJones]

7 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

My brother bought a house near an airport. Now he spends all his time complaining about the noise of the planes flying overhead. It is the way it is. You've spent 10 years in Thailand. Surely you've realized that by now?

Of course the op has realized it, we all have, he was only putting his point across, I would think the only expats living "permanently" here who do not agree with him are the ones who are not married to Thai girls, and the ones who are not married at all.

[meatboy]

57 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I have been married for about 15 years. I know some couples that have been married for close to 50 years.

we have over 30yrs.together,this is our 27th.yr.of marriage.

my wife has citizenship of my country,passport of my country,she owns land/ house in my country and is more than welcome anywhere.

me i own sweet fanny adams,are treeted like a crimminal haveing to report to immigration police,as if i am on probation.

for over 35yrs.i have paid taxes here,never been in trouble or had any dealings with the police.

them that say doing an extension,and their 90day.reports are a piece of cake.

well all i say is wait untill your ill and unable to do them,then see how you like it then.

over 71 and not going anywhere i would like just a little bit take of all the GIVE that i have given thailand,is that tooooooooooooo much to ask.

 

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

Of course the op has realized it, we all have, he was only putting his point across, I would think the only expats living "permanently" here who do not agree with him are the ones who are not married to Thai girls, and the ones who are not married at all.

See my response to BangkokBarry

[NoshowJones]

7 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Hence my last sentence - "surely you've realized that by now?". You're wife's a Thai national. Get her to lobby her local MP (that's a joke, by the way, in case you didn't realize)

Is that all you can say in answer to the OP?

[Deepinthailand]

3 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

To me this is the post of the year, the very reason I get a bit upset about these "permanent" residents who go on about  us being "guests" in this country.

Before the "if you don't like it, go home brigade" start, Thailand is still better than the UK, apart from what the OP says, the only really big downside here is the poor mentality of the drivers and motorbike riders.

Every single word in this OP is true from start to finish. There is nothing to stop the Thai government granting permanent residency to expats who have been married for ten years, if they are good quality people as most of them are.

Whilst I agree to a point why ten years and who would say you are  "quality people". If they were to introduce PR for married people. would that mean all married men/women or just ones that work!!! if that was the case then there would be an outcry from married retired men/women. To me a better way for all married to Thai would be to introduce a married extension which would last for the whole time you are married maybe reporting yearly.  but with a proviso that you are living as man and wife but there again I have little doubt that would be abused as well. no easy answer. But what can't happen is differential between married and working or married and retired.

[peterrabbit]

The sword of Damocles could be a lot closer than you think !

 

A friend who is on the retirement extension (here for 40+ years) had to return to Oz in a hurry after a medical emergency, He did not have time to get an exit stamp from immigration. So he flew to Singapore and went to the Thai Embassy there to get an ext stamp, which was duly provided. No problem there.

 

HOWEVER

 

While in the Embassy they showed him official paperwork detailing the new visa (retiree/long term) policy which will come into effect sometime next year. The new policy is to scrap retirement extensions altogether and replace it with a new 5 year visa at a cost of 500,000 baht ie 100,000 baht per year.

 

THIS WAS NOT A PROPOSAL BUT A NEW VISA POLICY TO BE INTRODUCED SHORTLY !

 

He was advised by the Embassy staff that he would no longer be able to extend his visa next year, as he has done for countless years before, and the only future option for ALL  retirees would be the 500,000 baht five year visa.

 

If this policy is introduced, as explained to him by the Embassy, then the flow of expats leaving Thailand will become a tsunami with the resulting collapse in property prices, businesses and the future collapse of Falang tourism in Thailand.

 

[SaintLouisBlues]

4 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Is that all you can say in answer to the OP?

You have a more practical suggestion? My original suggestion, by the way, was "That's the way it is - get over it"