Why doesn't Thailand offer Permanent Residency base on marriage?

[connda]

34 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

 

Connda - no disrespect but your fears seem to be stoking unnecessary anxiety. Enough people in other countries suffer when they are divorced or a change in family situations... and aren't many of the expat Brits around the world suffering the consequences of the devaluation of their money? 

 

I am sure that you and I both have had problems arise in our lives and when the next one does, hopefully we will be able to deal with it. At this point, I do not see any imminent threat to my life here, but if it happens, I will adjust. 

 

I don't think we can control everything in life, but if you were planning a move to Japan or Russia or New Zealand, would you honestly expect that they might change their laws to suit you? 

If I was married to a Japanese, Russian, or New Zealand woman I wouldn't be having this issue.  All three of those countries have a clear path to Permanent Residency explicitly based on a foreigner's marriage to their one of their citizens.  I don't know of any 'developed' countries that don't.  I can only believe this is because these countries recognize the inherent value of the family unit which is one of the tenets of all human rights organizations.  The family unit is inviolate regardless of race, ethnicity, age, or religion of the individuals within that family.  So these countries honor the sanctity of the family unit.

Edited November 5, 2016 by connda

[NoshowJones]

7 hours ago, tonray said:

If based on marriage what happens if divorced?  Do they revoke it?  This is why you cannot have PR based upon marriage because marriage is only permanent less than 50% of the time 

If the marriage ends in divorce and the expat has the majority of blame, ie adultery, desertion, then he has to go back to the immigration status of a single man, and if he is found to be telling lies, then a long prison sentence followed by deportation.

If the Expat is found to have done everything he can to save the marriage, then he keeps the permanent residency. There is no perfect solution to anything. People who are genuine in all their comes and goings deserve to be treated accordingly.

[Travel2003]

This is a topic which has always interested me.

 

As always, one easily spot the sexpats, and the ones who went here one time with mommy and daddy, and the ones (majority) who still believe they will walk in as a 97 year old spring chicken and easily figure out all the forms and new rules.

Expats who need some sort of assistance seem to be non-existing in this country, thus they do not need to worry about their future.

 

I might worry right now, but I do think about the future.

[NoshowJones]

5 hours ago, Briggsy said:

Because you don't earn enough and pay enough tax.

Money talks. The other stuff walks.

Set up a company. Pay yourself a salary. Employ some Thais. Pay all the other fees and necessities. Fill in all the forms. Jump all the hoops. You will get your permanent residency eventually.

Really??

[SaintLouisBlues]

5 minutes ago, connda said:

If I was married to a Japanese, Russian, or New Zealand woman I wouldn't be having this issue.  All three of those countries have a clear path to Permanent Residency explicitly based on a foreigner's marriage to their one of their citizens.  I don't know of any 'developed' countries that don't.  I can only believe this is because these countries recognize the inherent value of the family unit which is one of the tenets of all human rights organizations.  The family unit is inviolate regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion of the individuals within that family.

True but you've forgotten that essential ingredient of life in Thailand according to Thai officialdom. Living here's a privilege, not a right. It can never be a right. And us inferior people ie. the ones who never had the good sense to be born here, need our noses rubbed in it from time to time

[Briggsy]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

Really??

Yes.

 

(You do realise how much this would cost and how long it would take, don't you?)

[NoshowJones]

11 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

You have a more practical suggestion? My original suggestion, by the way, was "That's the way it is - get over it"

Read my other posts.

[connda]

34 minutes ago, gamini said:

You have to earn your permanent residence in Singapore by contributing something to the country. In Australia and New Zealand you have to be qualified so you contribute something to the country. Some of you who have posted here think that the Thai government wants a lot of good for nothing lowlife farangs  who contribute nothing to the country. Many just marry a bar girl in order to stay here.  They also complain about the fact that immigration has to check up to make sure that they are really married and not just using marriage as an excuse to get a Visa.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm talking about those of us who have long-term marriages and very well established extended families. 

[jak2002003]

2 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

If the marriage ends in divorce and the expat has the majority of blame, ie adultery, desertion, then he has to go back to the immigration status of a single man, and if he is found to be telling lies, then a long prison sentence followed by deportation.

If the Expat is found to have done everything he can to save the marriage, then he keeps the permanent residency. There is no perfect solution to anything. People who are genuine in all their comes and goings deserve to be treated accordingly.

I agree... genuine people who abide by the laws of that country and don't commit crimes DESERVE to be treaded accordingly. 

 

However, this does not happen in Thailand.  It often seems the opposite. 

 

I have lived here a long time.  As I got to speak the language better, and got more involved in Thai society (at least in my area) I started to understand more where my place as a Farang truly was... and its a good place on the surface, but not underneath.  I was making plans to return to Europe.. as I plan for the future, old age here does not appeal to me.  Sadly, all the mess with the UK leaving Europe has put that on hold for now.... I don't want to go back to the UK... so now have to revise my plans.

 

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Any time off for good behavior?

 

I have been married for 16 years and I knew my wife for 7 years before that.

 

So far, no time off for good behavior, but I haven't always been good.

[SaintLouisBlues]

2 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Read my other posts.

I have. That's why I asked.

[gk10002000]

12 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

The sword of Damocles could be a lot closer than you think !

 

A friend who is on the retirement extension (here for 40+ years) had to return to Oz in a hurry after a medical emergency, He did not have time to get an exit stamp from immigration. So he flew to Singapore and went to the Thai Embassy there to get an ext stamp, which was duly provided. No problem there.

 

HOWEVER

 

While in the Embassy they showed him official paperwork detailing the new visa (retiree/long term) policy which will come into effect sometime next year. The new policy is to scrap retirement extensions altogether and replace it with a new 5 year visa at a cost of 500,000 baht ie 100,000 baht per year.

 

THIS WAS NOT A PROPOSAL BUT A NEW VISA POLICY TO BE INTRODUCED SHORTLY !

 

He was advised by the Embassy staff that he would no longer be able to extend his visa next year, as he has done for countless years before, and the only future option for ALL  retirees would be the 500,000 baht five year visa.

 

If this policy is introduced, as explained to him by the Embassy, then the flow of expats leaving Thailand will become a tsunami with the resulting collapse in property prices, businesses and the future collapse of Falang tourism in Thailand.

 

Really.  Now that would not surprise me if such a plan is being contemplated by some authorities.  Most of the current Thailand retirement options despite some challenges really are very cheap and affordable compared to some other countries, the USA for example which doesn't even have such a thing.  Yes I know comparing apples and oranges.  If the Thais actually wanted to save money, and time and paperwork, then a better system with at least a one year reporting system should be done.  Jumping from 1900 baht/year to 500K baht for five years can be a big jump for many people.

[NoshowJones]

16 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

Whilst I agree to a point why ten years and who would say you are  "quality people". If they were to introduce PR for married people. would that mean all married men/women or just ones that work!!! if that was the case then there would be an outcry from married retired men/women. To me a better way for all married to Thai would be to introduce a married extension which would last for the whole time you are married maybe reporting yearly.  but with a proviso that you are living as man and wife but there again I have little doubt that would be abused as well. no easy answer. But what can't happen is differential between married and working or married and retired.

Some good sense here, but like I said, there is never a perfect answer to this sort of thing.

[SaintLouisBlues]

23 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

While in the Embassy they showed him official paperwork detailing the new visa (retiree/long term) policy which will come into effect sometime next year. The new policy is to scrap retirement extensions altogether and replace it with a new 5 year visa at a cost of 500,000 baht ie 100,000 baht per year.

So everyone's going to have to apply for the Thailand Elite 5 Year package?

[NoshowJones]

4 hours ago, kenk24 said:

Connda - your post sounds a bit dramatic... I have been here longer than you, live with a Thai family as well, but I always feel as though I am a guest here and appreciate that the laws are so easy to allow me to stay w/o having to leave. I go to immigration once a year, I go to the post office every 90 days... sure, I would rather not but the inconvenience is sooo small for the great privilege I am given of being able to live here... no, I am not kidding.

 

Funny though, where I see a privilege, you see a "violation of your human rights" - for a Burmese fisherman, being in a situation of forced labor and living in slavery when he is just trying to support his family - that is a violation of human rights... going to the post office every 90 days, well, not so much so as far as I can see... 

 

Sorry you are so troubled. It ain't your country, it ain't my country - I just respect and follow the rules.. 

I do not see where the OP is troubled, he is only giving his opinion, and I agree with every word of it, of course it is for you to disagree and also have an opinion, you may have to follow the rules, but you do not have to respect them.

[overherebc]

1 minute ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

So everyone's going to have to apply for the Thailand Elite 5 Year package?

 

I have a feeling that's what he was shown and there has been a problem with the information transfer.

On the lines of 'This would be a better way to stay long term"  omitting the part about still having to do 90 day reports. 

[CaptHaddock]

7 hours ago, connda said:

And yet that is not the case in virtually all other countries that grant PR based on marriage, which is most countries in the world.  What if my wife dies before me.  In most other counties you are protected.  Again, it's a basic human right not to dissolve a family unit because your spouse has died.  If my spouse dies,  is my step-son no longer my step-son?  Is my grand-daughter no longer my grand-daughter?  When I crossed the border to enter Thailand, did I give up my basic human rights? And yet here in Thailand if my spouse dies before me my marriage is invalidated which effectively divorces me from my family.  Correct me if I'm wrong?  And yet in what other civilized countries is the family unit dissolved due to the death of a spouse?  And with that dissolution also goes all certainty that you can remain with your established family unit. In Thailand you relegated back to the status of a long-stay tourist.

 

Nope.  It's not a basic human right recognized by any country for foreigners to live there just because they want to, unless governments have agreed to a reciprocity arrangement like the EU.  The countries that, in the past, have had more open borders were those that had chronic labor shortages which they partially remedied through immigration, such as the US, Canada, and Australia.  The motivation for permitting immigration to the extent that they did was economic, certainly not any notion of a supposed human right to live wherever you want.  Countries act in their own interests.

 

We knew the score before we came, or should have. 

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, Farang99 said:

Why should they grant PR based on anything at all? Thailand is a sovereign nation and needs take no notice of what other countries offer. It has its own laws and sees no need to change them for a bunch of people who are tired of living under the constant threat of losing their permission to stay here.

Why should they grant PR based on anything at all?

If they are proving to be quality citizens , buying land and property, living here over an amount of years, being law abiding and contributing to the economy.

Where would Thailand be today if they never allowed expats to live here?

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

 from what i have seen probably more than 80% western/thai relationships end in less 10 years. i know a few that have gone past 10 years but even those are because kids are involved. so i guess this is a fair point about what happens to permanent residents after divorce. what happens in other countries? do permanent residents keep there residency status?

"what happens in other countries"? This topic is only about people who are married in Thailand, there are other countries that make it easier to get PR through marriage, The Philipines ie.

and probably other countries who make it harder.

[tonray]

31 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

If the marriage ends in divorce and the expat has the majority of blame, ie adultery, desertion, then he has to go back to the immigration status of a single man, and if he is found to be telling lies, then a long prison sentence followed by deportation.

If the Expat is found to have done everything he can to save the marriage, then he keeps the permanent residency. There is no perfect solution to anything. People who are genuine in all their comes and goings deserve to be treated accordingly.

What about if he is 'skint' flat broke ? Should Thailand allow anyone who does not contribute to society to become permanent residents ?

 

The marriage test along with an assets, income and tax paying requirement should be required. Too many scammers would get PR status if you allowed only marriage to be the criteria.

[1FinickyOne]

10 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

I do not see where the OP is troubled, he is only giving his opinion, and I agree with every word of it, of course it is for you to disagree and also have an opinion, you may have to follow the rules, but you do not have to respect them.

 

Hiya Possum - opinions are fine, but the OP seems troubled by this and there are other posters who have mentioned that they and their families are living in fear... FEAR Possum - that is terrible and seems to me needless - sure, things can happen here or anywhere... but these are thoughts that have surely never even crossed my families mind, nor has any of it ever effected me... but I personally have no problem not owning the property and giving it to my wife - - I understand why others in different situations have different concerns... my wife in USA got our house and property when we split up... that's how it goes - part of marriage for me, you get what is behind curtain #1 and some lovely parting gifts including a house... 

 

but, I never give a thought to changing laws - and if you do, well, probably a lot of needless aggravation... I am happy to be here - if that changes, then I will be happy to be somewhere else... I think anyone who comes to live in a foreign country and expects them to change the laws to suit them, well, howling at the moon... I have dogs for that... 

[Time Traveller]

5 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

There s a procedure based on Permanent residemce you can obtain.

But their are other rules for that process.

Part of it is working in Thailand and a proven record of paying Thai taxes into the tax system for a set time.

That is not required by marriage to a Thai national, but is part of a permanent residency requirement.

Many countries have such requirements, the U.S. and the U.K. included.

I may agree with what you say, but there are restrictions on the rights to bringing family members into the country such as brothers and sisters of your spouse.

That is their rules.

 

 

 

 

Not correct. USA has no requirement that says you must be working to obtain permanent residence. 

[jonclark]

50 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

The sword of Damocles could be a lot closer than you think !

 

A friend who is on the retirement extension (here for 40+ years) had to return to Oz in a hurry after a medical emergency, He did not have time to get an exit stamp from immigration. So he flew to Singapore and went to the Thai Embassy there to get an ext stamp, which was duly provided. No problem there.

 

HOWEVER

 

While in the Embassy they showed him official paperwork detailing the new visa (retiree/long term) policy which will come into effect sometime next year. The new policy is to scrap retirement extensions altogether and replace it with a new 5 year visa at a cost of 500,000 baht ie 100,000 baht per year.

 

THIS WAS NOT A PROPOSAL BUT A NEW VISA POLICY TO BE INTRODUCED SHORTLY !

 

He was advised by the Embassy staff that he would no longer be able to extend his visa next year, as he has done for countless years before, and the only future option for ALL  retirees would be the 500,000 baht five year visa.

 

If this policy is introduced, as explained to him by the Embassy, then the flow of expats leaving Thailand will become a tsunami with the resulting collapse in property prices, businesses and the future collapse of Falang tourism in Thailand.

 

 

Wonder if there is a refund option for the families of the retirees who don't see out the entire 5 years and pass away in say year 3? 

[Honthy]

Why doesn't Thailand offer Permanent Residency base on marriage?

'cos it would be too easy and logical

[NoshowJones]

8 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

 

Hiya Possum - opinions are fine, but the OP seems troubled by this and there are other posters who have mentioned that they and their families are living in fear... FEAR Possum - that is terrible and seems to me needless - sure, things can happen here or anywhere... but these are thoughts that have surely never even crossed my families mind, nor has any of it ever effected me... but I personally have no problem not owning the property and giving it to my wife - - I understand why others in different situations have different concerns... my wife in USA got our house and property when we split up... that's how it goes - part of marriage for me, you get what is behind curtain #1 and some lovely parting gifts including a house... 

 

but, I never give a thought to changing laws - and if you do, well, probably a lot of needless aggravation... I am happy to be here - if that changes, then I will be happy to be somewhere else... I think anyone who comes to live in a foreign country and expects them to change the laws to suit them, well, howling at the moon... I have dogs for that... 

I agree that you do have to take chances in life, and I am always critical of people of a certain faith coming into countries and then expecting them to change their laws and customs to suit them, I would not dream of trying anything like that over here, as I said, I agree with every word the OP has written, and think this country should be more fair with us expats.

[Chicog]

The real answer of course is that it's because you are farang and all of the bad things that happen in Thailand are the farangs' fault.

 

 

[jonclark]

The only way the current situation will change is if we demand the Thai authorities make basic changes. 

 

The only way anyone in authority takes any notice is when action is taken. Farmers block a road over rubber, rice prices - all hell breaks lose and the farmers get their wish. Its that simple in Thailand - until we come together in a collective action and have the courage to put ourselves at the front line and confront the archaic laws with persistent reasoned argument and a good dose of media coverage nothing will change. 

 

We know what our rights should be, but are scared of claiming them - So we resort to ranting on web forums. 

 

 

[NoshowJones]

28 minutes ago, tonray said:

What about if he is 'skint' flat broke ? Should Thailand allow anyone who does not contribute to society to become permanent residents ?

 

The marriage test along with an assets, income and tax paying requirement should be required. Too many scammers would get PR status if you allowed only marriage to be the criteria.

Read the OP from start to finish and take it in. What skint person would be able to live and contribute here to a wife and family for ten years and more??

[SoiBiker]

6 minutes ago, jonclark said:

The only way the current situation will change is if we demand the Thai authorities make basic changes. 

 

The only way anyone in authority takes any notice is when action is taken. Farmers block a road over rubber, rice prices - all hell breaks lose and the farmers get their wish. Its that simple in Thailand - until we come together in a collective action and have the courage to put ourselves at the front line and confront the archaic laws with persistent reasoned argument and a good dose of media coverage nothing will change. 

 

We know what our rights should be, but are scared of claiming them - So we resort to ranting on web forums. 

 

 

A bunch of Farangs outside immigration confronting the authorities? Let me know when you plan your protest. I'll bring along a folding chair and some popcorn and watch the fun. 

 

 

[gk10002000]

51 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

So everyone's going to have to apply for the Thailand Elite 5 Year package?

I don't think it will be that exact visa, but it sounds like the pricing and other terms are going to be along those lines.