Arrival card - visa number

[naboo]

On arrival today, I was re-entering on a visa from about 8 years ago that has been extended multiple times.

 

Usually, I write the number of my original visa in the "visa number" section of the arrival card. I have not applied for, nor been given, another visa since my original visa, and so as far as I am aware, I am here on an extension of that visa.

 

Today, for the first time, I was told that I should put the number of my re-entry permit in that box. I queried with the officer, suggesting that I only had one Thai Visa in my passport, the one from 8 years ago, and that other stamps were merely extensions of stay and re-entry permits, not visas, and so could not be considered "visa numbers".

 

She scowled at me.

 

So, with the collective knowledge of Thai Visa, who is wrong? The scowling officer, the arrival card, or the alien?

[Kopitiam]

The alien is at fault here.  Your visa of eight years ago is already used.  You are on extension of stay and use re-entry permits to come back into Thailand.  You should write the number stated in your latest re-entry permit on the arrival card.

[elviajero]

• A visa is just used to gain entry, and you used your entry years ago to get a 90 day permission to stay. Since then you have been extending your permission to stay, not your visa. A visa cannot be extended.
• The reason you need a re-entry permit is because you no longer have a visa. You should always use the re-entry permit number and not the old, used, redundant visa.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Yes, use the Re-Entry Permit number and right next to it write RE-ENTRY PERMIT.

 

This is to avoid the immigration officer perhaps giving you the 30-day Visa Exempt chop, which seems to happen often enough.

 

Mac

[dddave]

Try to remember when you get the re-entry permit to check it before you leave the desk and be sure it is legible.  The immigration officer hand writes it and several times mine has had ambiguous numbers..one time so illegible that even an immigration officer at the airport couldn't make it out...he just stamped my guess and said "Mai phen rai"  

[Crossy]

2 hours ago, Thanyaburi Mac said:

Yes, use the Re-Entry Permit number and right next to it write RE-ENTRY PERMIT.

This is to avoid the immigration officer perhaps giving you the 30-day Visa Exempt chop, which seems to happen often enough.

 

+1 Mac, it's the work of a moment and avoids (ok, reduces the possibility of) any misunderstandings.

[muzmurray]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

• A visa is just used to gain entry, and you used your entry years ago to get a 90 day permission to stay. Since then you have been extending your permission to stay, not your visa. A visa cannot be extended.
• The reason you need a re-entry permit is because you no longer have a visa. You should always use the re-entry permit number and not the old, used, redundant visa.

 

People with valid visas can and do buy re-entry permits, to suggest otherwise is misleading.

[vaultdweller0013]

I suppose technically, the arrival card is wrong and should say Visa/Re-entry Permit Number. Or, more accurately, it should say Visa/Re-entry Permit Code, since Visas can contain letters in their issued ID and re-entry permits contain a slash before the 2 digit (Buddhist) year they are issued.

 

With that said, in common usage "visa" is used to mean anything that permits one entry or permission to stay in a county, which could include re-entry permits, visas, or extensions of stay.

 

The reason that Thaivisa is particularly pedantic, and rightfully so, about the terminology is that the answer to a question like, "I quit my job, do I need to leave the country immediately?" will depend on whether the person has a permission to stay based on entry using a visa or an extension of stay performed by immigration within Thailand, so it is important to be specific in this setting so that the correct advise can be given.

 

 

[OJAS]

8 hours ago, Thanyaburi Mac said:

Yes, use the Re-Entry Permit number and right next to it write RE-ENTRY PERMIT.

 

This is to avoid the immigration officer perhaps giving you the 30-day Visa Exempt chop, which seems to happen often enough.

 

Mac

 

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

+1 Mac, it's the work of a moment and avoids (ok, reduces the possibility of) any misunderstandings.

 

+2 It alerts (or rather should alert) the IO to the need to look for a re-entry permit as distinct from a non-existent (or long-expired) visa.

[skatewash]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

 

 

+2 It alerts (or rather should alert) the IO to the need to look for a re-entry permit as distinct from a non-existent (or long-expired) visa.

 

Excellent advice.  I have started to go this one better and put:  RE-ENTRY PERMIT on Page 25.  Page 25 being the page in my passport containing the latest Re-Entry Permit.  I also dog-ear the page containing the Re-Entry Permit to aid the Immigration Officer (IO) in finding it in my passport (my passport has 100+ pages).

I'm a big proponent of the "help you to help me" school.  I do anything I can imagine to aid the IO in processing my entry.  I suspect both the IO and multitudes waiting in line behind me appreciate this attitude.

[Mattd]

5 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

People with valid visas can and do buy re-entry permits, to suggest otherwise is misleading.

Would have thought that if somebody needed a re-entry permit, then their visa is no longer valid, i.e. it would have to be a SE visa and therefore used upon the first entry?

If ME, then there would be no need for a re-entry permit.

[muzmurray]

1 hour ago, Mattd said:

Would have thought that if somebody needed a re-entry permit, then their visa is no longer valid, i.e. it would have to be a SE visa and therefore used upon the first entry?

If ME, then there would be no need for a re-entry permit.

 

I could have worded it better - people who entered on a single entry visa can and do...............

 

If you enter with a single entry tourist or single entry Non-Imm visa, you get the appropriate permission to stay, IF however you want to leave in that time and still maintain the rest of your permission to stay - you buy a re-entry permit.

 

 

 

(don't confuse a visa with a permission to stay)

Edited November 7, 2016 by muzmurray

[Mattd]

No confusion regarding extension of stay and visas whatsoever, been doing them for 28 odd years.

But it is why it is a good point for debate, as those that are in this situation should know which is the correct information to enter on to the TM6 if arriving back in to Thailand on a re-entry permit in these instances.

Personally I'd use the re-entry permit number, as this would be the last number issued to me against the visa (actually, I suspect that all re-entry permits do relate back to the last visa via the extension to stay), I may well be wrong in this assumption though, it has been a long time since I had an actual visa and not an extension of stay / re-entry permit.

My reasoning would be that this is the latest number that would (should) have been entered in to the immigration computer software and the original visa, by definition, was used upon my first entry and therefore null and void for another entry (nothing to do with the validity of the stay), the new entry is only allowable due to the re-entry permit, the end result would more than likely be the same, as the re-entry permit and stamp upon entry would only be valid to the expiry date of the original permission to stay related to the visa.

It could of course be possible that the number of the re-entry permit in this case would be the same as the original visa number?

 

As an addition, more reasoning, surely if they did put the original visa number as opposed to the re-entry permit number, then this could well confuse the issue when trying to re-enter, as the IO would see that the visa was stamped used and may not necessarily see the re-entry permit, then stamp in for 30 days visa exempt only (if an applicable passport holder)?

Which is pretty much what the OP was advised.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Mattd
additional

[elviajero]

9 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

People with valid visas can and do buy re-entry permits, to suggest otherwise is misleading.

No it's not. I was commenting specifically about the OP's circumstances. They do not have a valid visa.

[Genericnic]

The number you use on your arrival card comes from whatever allows you to cross the border and enter the Kingdom at the time.

 

If you have a SE visa and leave the kingdom, that visa will not get you back in without a re-entry permit and its accompanying number. While the visa might technically still be valid if you had stayed in the kingdom, the built in SE part dies when it is used on first entry. 

 

If you have a ME visa, you can continue using the original visa number until it expires and you are required to get an extension of permission to stay. The extension of permission to stay will allow you to remain in Thailand but not come back into the kingdom without a re-entry permit, either SE or ME.

 

For example, I had a ME Non-O (Retirement) visa that said I had to enter the kingdom before 28 Dec 2011. I entered the kingdom on 3 Feb 2011. The Immigration stamp stated allowed to stay until 2 Feb 2012. I went in and out a few times before then using only the original visa number. I went to Malaysia in December 2011 and returned on 26 December, a few days before the original visa's "must enter before" date. When I re-entered under the original ME visa, the stamp stamp had no number but stated admitted until 25 Dec 2012. In effect it gave me a permission to stay based on the original visa. Before 25 Dec 2012, I again left and re-entered the kingdom using the original visa number. I did not get a re-entry permit with its accompanying number until 25 December 2012, when I also got my extension of permission to stay. While the permission to stay has its own number, the permission to stay does not allow you to re-enter the kingdom if you leave. That is why we get SE or ME re-entry permits. The re-entry permit is the document that lets you cross the border into the kingdom. That is why you use that number rather than your original visa or the number on any extension of permission to stay.

 

Hope my rambling has been clear enough to be helpful.

 

David

 

 

[BritTim]

17 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

People with valid visas can and do buy re-entry permits, to suggest otherwise is misleading.

 

In my opinion, less misleading than your post, assuming you are referring to the case where the visa is still valid but will expire before the holder next returns to the country (and, thus, the holder needs to protect the permission of stay in spite of the fact that the visa is, technically, still unexpired at the time the re-entry permit is applied for). If you mean anything else, with the demise of double and triple entry visas, I cannot imagine a circumstance where it would make sense.

[Deepinthailand]

My goodness people actualy vindicating the IO on Thai Visa will wonders never cease. 

[skatewash]

19 hours ago, Mattd said:

 

It could of course be possible that the number of the re-entry permit in this case would be the same as the original visa number?

That's not my experience in Phuket.    I've only ever had one Thai visa and it was numbered:  Annnnnnn.  That is, the letter 'A' followed by a 7 digit number.

 

I've had 5 re-entry permits, and they have all been numbered as follows:  nnnnn/yy.  That is, a five digit number (more recently increased to 6 digits), followed by a '/', followed by the two-digit year (according to the the Thai calendar).

So, for example:

15nnn/56

20nnn/56

70nnnn/57

10nnnn/58

10nnnn/59

 

This pattern leads me to hypothesize that a new re-entry permit number is one greater than the previously issued number by that office, appended with a "/yy" ending indicating the year of issue.  I suspect there may be a base number say 10000 from which the permit numbers start.  It does seem to be the case that for the two single-entry re-entry permits I received in 2013 (2556 Thai date), the second issued one had a higher number (count) than the first one issued.

 

[OJAS]

21 hours ago, skatewash said:

I'm a big proponent of the "help you to help me" school.  I do anything I can imagine to aid the IO in processing my entry.  I suspect both the IO and multitudes waiting in line behind me appreciate this attitude.

 

Agreed. But there is, of course, little you can do if any of those standing in front of you have omitted to complete the arrival card before finding themselves standing in front of the IO, for their own inscrutable reasons!

[skatewash]

4 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

Agreed. But there is, of course, little you can do if any of those standing in front of you have omitted to complete the arrival card before finding themselves standing in front of the IO, for their own inscrutable reasons!

True.  We are sometimes at the mercy of the inexperienced (or perhaps thoughtless) traveler.  I've been in some immigration lines where someone checks well back in the line whether you have the requisite card filled in.  I really appreciate flights where the arrival/departure cards are handed out first thing once the plane is airborne and flight attendants can safely do so.  Sometimes the cards are handed out later in the flight while people are asleep, in the bathroom, etc.  However, it is ultimately the traveler's responsibility.  I think it would be a good idea to have big signs made reminding people waiting in line at immigration that they need to get and fill out an arrival/departure card.  Yes, frequent travelers will know to do this, but infrequent or first-time travelers could do with the reminder.

The long lines I've experienced recently at the new international terminal in Phuket have got me thinking about ways that  I can help the Immigration Officer do his job efficiently and quickly.  In my case, I have a busy, 100+ page passport so it seems to me just common sense to make it easy for the IO to find the Re-entry permit that applies to my current entry.  I play a game to see how fast I can get processed by the IO.  I wish more people would play this game ;-)