UK: Labour MP Jo Cox 'murdered for political cause'

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

Personal abuse about my apparent political agenda for pointing out that someone who murdered for a political cause has 25,000 individual 'supporters' is a bit ironic isn't it.

I am sure that before Thomas Mair brutally murdered Jo Cox he would have been seen as just another weirdo as well.

 

 

Whereas you would like him to to be seen as the vanguard of a (non-existent) brexit leave political violence movement, because getting people to believe such nonsense will help turn them away from brexit leave (you hope).

[Orac]

 
Whereas you would like him to to be seen as the vanguard of a (non-existent) brexit leave political violence movement, because getting people to believe such nonsense will help turn them away from brexit leave (you hope).

There you go again - trying to deflect away from Thomas Mair's political agenda with another ad hominem accusing me of having one.

[Khun Han]

42 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

There you go again - trying to deflect away from Thomas Mair's political agenda with another ad hominem accusing me of having one.

 

 

Look, I know you and other remainers really, really want Jo Cox's death to be the fault of brexit leave. But it isn't. I prefer to mourn the death of an outstanding young woman murdered by a mentally unstable loner with a fixation with neo-naziism. I find the attempts by you and others to extract political mileage out of her death to be distastful, to say the least. And I will continue to take you to task over it, no matter how much you bleat.

[Orac]

 
Look, I know you and other remainers really, really want Jo Cox's death to be the fault of brexit leave. But it isn't. I prefer to mourn the death of an outstanding young woman murdered by a mentally unstable loner with a fixation with neo-naziism. I find the attempts by you and others to extract political mileage out of her death to be distastful, to say the least. And I will continue to take you to task over it, no matter how much you bleat.

Sorry - the article in question makes no specific mention of brexit with just the following quote from someone getting anywhere near it.

"Clearly there were those on social media and other digital platforms who sought to exploit and profit from his disgusting actions, and the tensions also arising from the referendum process, to spread their vile beliefs.”

It speaks specifically to Thomas Mair's political beliefs and those that appear to support them.

There is more to this than brexit yet you continue harping back to it to avoid talking about the spread of right wing extremism in the UK by trying to right this off as the actions of a lone nutter whereas there seem to be a lot of people out there with similar views.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

Sorry - the article in question makes no specific mention of brexit with just the following quote from someone getting anywhere near it.

"Clearly there were those on social media and other digital platforms who sought to exploit and profit from his disgusting actions, and the tensions also arising from the referendum process, to spread their vile beliefs.”

It speaks specifically to Thomas Mair's political beliefs and those that appear to support them.

There is more to this than brexit yet you continue harping back to it to avoid talking about the spread of right wing extremism in the UK by trying to right this off as the actions of a lone nutter whereas there seem to be a lot of people out there with similar views.
 

 

 

Harping back to brexit? Take the time sometime to read the threads, man. Remainers continue to blame Jo Cox's death on the brexit leave campaign.

 

AFAIK, the investigation into Mair came to the conclusion that he acted alone. Nobody put him up to it, he wasn't involved with any groups which propose the killing of politicians.

 

If you want to talk about the spread of far right politics, fine. But that's not the topic here. And I see no marked recent increase in far right popularity in the UK, anyway.

[Orac]

 
Harping back to brexit? Take the time sometime to read the threads, man. Remainers continue to blame Jo Cox's death on the brexit leave campaign.
 
AFAIK, the investigation into Mair came to the conclusion that he acted alone. Nobody put him up to it, he wasn't involved with any groups which propose the killing of politicians.
 
If you want to talk about the spread of far right politics, fine. But that's not the topic here. And I see no marked recent increase in far right popularity in the UK, anyway.

The very title of this thread is "Uk: Labour MP Jo Cox 'murdered for political cause'" so how on earth can you deem the politics of the situation not the topic strikes me as a touch bizarre as it would be difficult to get more on topic.

Though Thomas Mair acted alone his "political cause" is very real and, as per the earlier article I posted, appears to have many others with similar perspectives.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

The very title of this thread is "Uk: Labour MP Jo Cox 'murdered for political cause'" so how on earth can you deem the politics of the situation not the topic strikes me as a touch bizarre as it would be difficult to get more on topic.

Though Thomas Mair acted alone his "political cause" is very real and, as per the earlier article I posted, appears to have many others with similar perspectives.

 

 

The title of this thread is not "The rise of the far right in the UK". And whether-or-not the far right is on the rise in the UK is irrelevant to this topic because Mair appears to have held his far right views for a very long time, and was so secretive about them that none of his family or neighbours knew about them. And, other than subscribing to some foreign far right websites, he appears not to have interacted with anybody else wrt his political views. Discussing his crime in terms of a 'movement' of any type is completely disingenouous.

[Grouse]

On 25/11/2016 at 0:01 AM, Laughing Gravy said:

Apologise for having a different opinion. Why? It is you that shouts people down, bullies them and makes derogatory remarks. I suggest you go and read all the posts you have written to me. You ridicule me as well as others for making spelling mistakes and you consistently do that. Against forum rules by the way. You consistently call people numpties for voting brexit which is a belittling term. You then call people bigots and racists. So I suggest you take a good look at oneself. Being 'Yorkshire' is not an excuse and you can tell that to Michael Parkinson too.

I am a gentleman and if we met, it would pistols at dawn like traditional gentlemen do.

 

I refer you to post 52

[Orac]

 
The title of this thread is not "The rise of the far right in the UK". And whether-or-not the far right is on the rise in the UK is irrelevant to this topic because Mair appears to have held his far right views for a very long time, and was so secretive about them that none of his family or neighbours knew about them. And, other than subscribing to some foreign far right websites, he appears not to have interacted with anybody else wrt his political views. Discussing his crime in terms of a 'movement' of any type is completely disingenouous.

25,000 individuals appear to agree to some extent with his 'political cause' to some degree which, to me, is a huge issue especially given the context of what happened here. To dismiss these people as 'weirdos' and claiming that all serial killers have such followers is ignoring the problem that some of these right wing nut jobs might pose. Don't forget that Thomas Mair could have been classed as one of these weirdo types prior to what he did and press cuttings about Anders Brevik were found in his flat.

[Khun Han]

18 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

25,000 individuals appear to agree to some extent with his 'political cause' to some degree which, to me, is a huge issue especially given the context of what happened here. To dismiss these people as 'weirdos' and claiming that all serial killers have such followers is ignoring the problem that some of these right wing nut jobs might pose. Don't forget that Thomas Mair could have been classed as one of these weirdo types prior to what he did and press cuttings about Anders Brevik were found in his flat.

 

 

 

I'm not sure even you know what point you are trying to make now. That there are potentially 25,000 Thomas Mairs out there? That Thomas Mair could have been stopped before he went down his crazy and lethal road? How? He slipped through the social services and mental health treatment nets, and kept his obsession with neo naziism a closely guarded secret. The British authorities could have come down on far right groups like a ton of bricks, but it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to Mair: his 'fix' was from foreign far right groups.

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I'm not sure even you know what point you are trying to make now. That there are potentially 25,000 Thomas Mairs out there? That Thomas Mair could have been stopped before he went down his crazy and lethal road? How? He slipped through the social services and mental health treatment nets, and kept his obsession with neo naziism a closely guarded secret. The British authorities could have come down on far right groups like a ton of bricks, but it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to Mair: his 'fix' was from foreign far right groups.

 

How do you explain his target?

 

How do you explain the timing?

 

How do you explain his statements?

 

Why are you so keen to defend this individual?

 

 

[Basil B]

12 hours ago, Orac said:

 

And that Mair has 25,000 out there on twitter alone doesn't bother you?

 

 

Not really, that something like 0.03% percent of the UP population, only the SNP would call that a substantial proportion of UK citizens.

 

UKIP claims to have 35,000 members so 25,000 supporters of Mar could be near the mark.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Basil B

[Grouse]

51 minutes ago, Basil B said:

 

Not really, that something like 0.03% percent of the UP population, only the SNP would call that a substantial proportion of UK citizens.

 

UKIP claims to have 35,000 members so 25,000 supporters of Mar could be near the mark.

 

 

 

And that doesn't worry you?

 

Let's get one thing clear, I don't think that Brexit was responsible for the murder.

 

However, I have no doubt that some of the leave rhetoric was a catalyst. Just as it was a catalyst for many nasty minor hate crimes.

 

Please be clear on what a catalyst is.

 

" With a catalyst, reactions happen faster because they require less activation energy "

Edited November 27, 2016 by Grouse

[Basil B]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

And that doesn't worry you?

 

Let's get one thing clear, I don't think that Brexit was responsible for the murder.

 

However, I have no doubt that some of the leave rhetoric was a catalyst. Just as it was a catalyst for many nasty minor hate crimes.

 

Please be clear on what a catalyst is.

 

Yes the hate crime here was deep routed propaganda by the likes of the National Front, BNP and UKIP...

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

How do you explain his target?

 

How do you explain the timing?

 

How do you explain his statements?

 

Why are you so keen to defend this individual?

 

 

 

Why don't you answer your own questions (it's obvious from their leading nature that you already have your own answers)? Then we can put those answers up for discussion.

[Grouse]

59 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Why don't you answer your own questions (it's obvious from their leading nature that you already have your own answers)? Then we can put those answers up for discussion.

 

OK, I'll play along

 

The target was an obvious remain supporter, quite outspoken, local and recognisable. Logical

 

The timing was approaching the referendum. Rhetoric at crescendo. This was the catalyst.

 

His statements were all "little englander". Britain comes first (to paraphrase)

 

Why Brexiteers don't go along with this I have no idea

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

12 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

I refer you to post 52

Still I can't see what there is to apologies. It is you who used the term Yorkshire when commenting on your 'style of debating' > I have never tried to belittle you over your spelling errors unlike you. Either way I have thick skin and I am man enough to apologise, when I am' out of order' and warrants it. Post 52 does not.

[Khun Han]

15 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

OK, I'll play along

 

The target was an obvious remain supporter, quite outspoken, local and recognisable. Logical

 

The timing was approaching the referendum. Rhetoric at crescendo. This was the catalyst.

 

His statements were all "little englander". Britain comes first (to paraphrase)

 

Why Brexiteers don't go along with this I have no idea

 

 

 

Nothing in your speculation, or in anything he said, that connects his actions to anything in the vote leave campaign.

[rockingrobin]

16 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

OK, I'll play along

 

The target was an obvious remain supporter, quite outspoken, local and recognisable. Logical

 

The timing was approaching the referendum. Rhetoric at crescendo. This was the catalyst.

 

His statements were all "little englander". Britain comes first (to paraphrase)

 

Why Brexiteers don't go along with this I have no idea

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Nothing in your speculation, or in anything he said, that connects his actions to anything in the vote leave campaign.

When arrested he claimed to be a political activist.

At his home newspaper articles about Mrs Cox , biography and a quote from her “I believe the patriotic choice is to vote for Britain to remain inside the EU.”  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jo-cox-mp-trial-thomas-mair-third-reich-eagle-remain-eu-articles-a7429911.html

 

 

[Khun Han]

7 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

 

When arrested he claimed to be a political activist.

At his home newspaper articles about Mrs Cox , biography and a quote from her “I believe the patriotic choice is to vote for Britain to remain inside the EU.”  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jo-cox-mp-trial-thomas-mair-third-reich-eagle-remain-eu-articles-a7429911.html

 

 

 

And the article you linked confirms what we already know: That Mair is a sad loner with an obsession with foreign right wing extremists, and no connections whatsoever with the brexit leave movement. But remainers continue to attempt to link Mair to brexit leave, however tenuously, in order to discredit and taint bredit leave. It's politics of the gutter and it won't succeed. If anything, it cofirms to brexiters that remain has a strong undercurremt of intellectual dishonesty and underhand tactics: that, basically, remainers can't be trusted.

[SheungWan]

Mair was a subscriber and contributor to the magazine SA Patriot originally based in SA but moved to the UK. Published by the Springbok Club whose blog urged readers to vote to leave the EU in order to renew links with their 'ethnic brothers and sisters' around the world. Mair told the SA Patriot In Exile that he had some contact with the National Front in the 90s and had been seen at an English Defence League rally in London. Shoving Mair off as a purely 'foreign' right-wing fanatic doesn't quite cut it.

[Khun Han]

42 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Mair was a subscriber and contributor to the magazine SA Patriot originally based in SA but moved to the UK. Published by the Springbok Club whose blog urged readers to vote to leave the EU in order to renew links with their 'ethnic brothers and sisters' around the world. Mair told the SA Patriot In Exile that he had some contact with the National Front in the 90s and had been seen at an English Defence League rally in London. Shoving Mair off as a purely 'foreign' right-wing fanatic doesn't quite cut it.

 

Didn't Mair's subscription to the South African group expire about ten years ago?

[rockingrobin]

15 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

 

When arrested he claimed to be a political activist.

At his home newspaper articles about Mrs Cox , biography and a quote from her “I believe the patriotic choice is to vote for Britain to remain inside the EU.”  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jo-cox-mp-trial-thomas-mair-third-reich-eagle-remain-eu-articles-a7429911.html

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

And the article you linked confirms what we already know: That Mair is a sad loner with an obsession with foreign right wing extremists, and no connections whatsoever with the brexit leave movement. But remainers continue to attempt to link Mair to brexit leave, however tenuously, in order to discredit and taint bredit leave. It's politics of the gutter and it won't succeed. If anything, it cofirms to brexiters that remain has a strong undercurremt of intellectual dishonesty and underhand tactics: that, basically, remainers can't be trusted.

What you wish to believe is your decision, however for myself I find the evidence compelling that the referendum campaign and   Mrs Cox view that Remain was in the UK interest was the reason for her murder .

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

 

What you wish to believe is your decision, however for myself I find the evidence compelling that the referendum campaign and   Mrs Cox view that Remain was in the UK interest was the reason for her murder .

 

Of course, Mair's long time fixation with extreme right violence and extermination can just be conveniently ignored, can't it? His interest in the Norwegian far right mass murderer Anders Breivik alone (no connection with brexit there, by the way) proves that he had been 'tipped over the edge' ( to use a bit of Grouse psychobabble) for quite some time. It was just a question of which target he latched onto, and Jo Cox being his local left wing (and very active locally) MP was an obvious one. I suppose we can be thankful for small mercies, in that he didn't go for multiple targets like his role model Breivik.

 

It's as plain as daylight from all the evidence that Mair was going to kill somebody if he wasn't stopped first. Like I said, remainers trying to taint brexit leave with his actions is deplorable political ambulance chasing which willfully ignores a whole raft of evidence that Mair had, for a very long time, been working himself up to be a political killer.

[rockingrobin]

45 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Of course, Mair's long time fixation with extreme right violence and extermination can just be conveniently ignored, can't it? His interest in the Norwegian far right mass murderer Anders Breivik alone (no connection with brexit there, by the way) proves that he had been 'tipped over the edge' ( to use a bit of Grouse psychobabble) for quite some time. It was just a question of which target he latched onto, and Jo Cox being his local left wing (and very active locally) MP was an obvious one. I suppose we can be thankful for small mercies, in that he didn't go for multiple targets like his role model Breivik.

 

It's as plain as daylight from all the evidence that Mair was going to kill somebody if he wasn't stopped first. Like I said, remainers trying to taint brexit leave with his actions is deplorable political ambulance chasing which willfully ignores a whole raft of evidence that Mair had, for a very long time, been working himself up to be a political killer.

' It's as plain as daylight from all the evidence that Mair was going to kill somebody if he wasn't stopped first '

 

What evidence ?

[Khun Han]

7 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

' It's as plain as daylight from all the evidence that Mair was going to kill somebody if he wasn't stopped first '

 

What evidence ?

 

Apparently for remainers, Mair's unhealthy interest in Anders Breivik doesn't, in retrospect, indicate his state of mind and actions. But remainers are all over the fact that his target was a left wing remain-supporting MP, and this is apparently 'compelling evidence' that brexit turned Mair into a murderer! Astonishing logic (or worse).

[rockingrobin]

10 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Apparently for remainers, Mair's unhealthy interest in Anders Breivik doesn't, in retrospect, indicate his state of mind and actions. But remainers are all over the fact that his target was a left wing remain-supporting MP, and this is apparently 'compelling evidence' that brexit turned Mair into a murderer! Astonishing logic (or worse).

No 

The issue is he targeted Mrs Cox , and even had a remain pamphlet on him at the time of the murder. Mair researched a number of murders and even the KKK, and since Mair was of the opinion white collaborators are the worst kind of enemy , along with his remarks at the time 'Britain first , ' etc, the evidence is conclusive

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38071894

[Khun Han]

12 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

No 

The issue is he targeted Mrs Cox , and even had a remain pamphlet on him at the time of the murder. Mair researched a number of murders and even the KKK, and since Mair was of the opinion white collaborators are the worst kind of enemy , along with his remarks at the time 'Britain first , ' etc, the evidence is conclusive

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38071894

 

Conclusive my backside! What is conclusive is that Mair had been working himself up to commit a political murder for a very long time. Remainers, with their disgusting agenda of trying to make political capital for their cause, choose to ignore the abundance of evidence for this. Instead, they only focus on any possible connectios to brexit, no matter how tenouous. We even had Shung Wan 'showing' a link between Mair and a South African white supremacist group based in the UK that advocated brexit. Mair, Springboks, brexit: it's compelling, isn't it? Except that Sheng Wan forgot to tell us that Mair had stopped his subscription to this group over ten years ago.

 

Mair killed because he is a mentally ill loner with an obsession with foreign far right groups and a foreign far right mass murderer in particular. Trying to blame his actions on a single political event is just disgusting political ambulance chasing.

[Grouse]

The man was obviously a psychopath. I think that's not in question. 

 

The point is the choice of target target and the timing

 

In my opinion, Brexit rhetoric and propaganda which was at crescendo level at the time was the catalyst, the trigger, and also was instrumental in the choice of target.

 

Nobody is blaming Brexiteers for the tragedy.

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Conclusive my backside! What is conclusive is that Mair had been working himself up to commit a political murder for a very long time. Remainers, with their disgusting agenda of trying to make political capital for their cause, choose to ignore the abundance of evidence for this. Instead, they only focus on any possible connectios to brexit, no matter how tenouous. We even had Shung Wan 'showing' a link between Mair and a South African white supremacist group based in the UK that advocated brexit. Mair, Springboks, brexit: it's compelling, isn't it? Except that Sheng Wan forgot to tell us that Mair had stopped his subscription to this group over ten years ago.

 

Mair killed because he is a mentally ill loner with an obsession with foreign far right groups and a foreign far right mass murderer in particular. Trying to blame his actions on a single political event is just disgusting political ambulance chasing.

 

Not mentally ill. Cancelling a subscription does not press the off switch. The forum Brexiteer huffing and puffing continues. Premeditated and planned murder of a Remain 'white traitor' MP.

Edited November 29, 2016 by SheungWan