Hillary Clinton leads Donald Trump by 2m votes

[Strange]

10 minutes ago, Xircal said:

It looks impressive when viewed by county but you have to look at in perspective I think. Many of those counties are just farmland as shown in my image with just a single solitary dwelling in a vast expanse of bare fields. Painting the picture the way you have makes it look like hundreds, if not thousands of people in each county voted for Trump which isn't the case at all.

 

It literally matters not. The red counties are Trump and 1 vote over Hillary is enough to paint it red. It does not matter as the popular vote in the state is the one that gets the EC votes but the point is to illustrate that there is a lot more Trump support than meets the eye. 

 

In illinois, yeah I'm sure there are hundreds in some counties and thousands in some counties and that IS the case 100%. 

 

Hillary got the Popular Vote but drive across america and you'll find a lot more Trump support.

 

People think Trump won by some freak of nature and that is just not the case. EC did its job.  

 

Your rural photo is likely a vehemently red state. The ones I showed are vehemently blue states but are almost completely red. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Strange

[Opl]

Political Segregation Is Growing and 'We're Living With the Consequences'

Author Bill Bishop, who has spent years studying America's urban-rural divide, discusses what it means for politics and progress " We do seem to be splitting into two Americas, where people can't comprehend the politics on the other side"

" ...politics now is about identity and self expression and not about policy. That's what a lot of people miss. This really wasn't about policy decisions. This was about social identity, which is why the sorting took place to begin with."

 

http://www.governing.com/topics/politics/gov-bill-bishop-interview.html

Edited November 25, 2016 by Opl

[tropo]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

There is no requirement to "get behind the new president-elect". There's even less justification for such call considering the some of Trump's positions. That he will be the president is not a question, that he should be embraced or receive support simply on the merit that he won, is. Rather, it is perhaps more fitting that Trump would address the fears, suspicion and worries his victory caused among some of the public.

 

The desire for the opposition to submit is understandable, but things don't work this way in countries which are not dictatorial.

 

"there is no requirement to "get behind the new president-elect".

 

 What should you do then? Spend 4 years protesting and fighting against him at every opportunity?

 

BTW, it was a suggestion, not a requirement. You can spend the next 4 or 8 years doing whatever you like.

 

 

 

 

[lannarebirth]

40 minutes ago, Opl said:

Political Segregation Is Growing and 'We're Living With the Consequences'

Author Bill Bishop, who has spent years studying America's urban-rural divide, discusses what it means for politics and progress " We do seem to be splitting into two Americas, where people can't comprehend the politics on the other side"

" ...politics now is about identity and self expression and not about policy. That's what a lot of people miss. This really wasn't about policy decisions. This was about social identity, which is why the sorting took place to begin with."

 

http://www.governing.com/topics/politics/gov-bill-bishop-interview.html

 

Good article, I wish it had been longer.

[Opl]

20 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Good article, I wish it had been longer.

 

So do I!

There was link within the article " How the most ideologically polarized Americans live different lives, Pew Research Center  dated 2012 .  and the comments are interesting too   

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/13/big-houses-art-museums-and-in-laws-how-the-most-ideologically-polarized-americans-live-different-lives/

 

 

[ttthailand]

What exactly do these protesters want ? Trump won over ever possible obstacle. The American people spoke and now we need to support our president. Those who say Hillary won by 2m votes have to remember that first it is not the way America picks the winner. Second, Trump went where he had a chance to win and didn't just after votes. If he hit the big cities, NY, LA etc he would have received an even higher percentage. Third, the media, both parties, all the banking and industries, and the establishment all were in Hillary's corner. Forth, his real platform in the beginning of his run was similar to Bernie Sanders. Hillary was totally opposite until she flipped on just about everything.
And what do they want ... A coup like Thailand has every few years. Unstable government ? The US stock market is the highest it had ever been. People have hope for change. Russia is now relaxing their stance regarding a possible war. Trump has already improved America and he is not even in office yet.

[elgordo38]

Get em while their hot. The Donald is making this special offer to all his friends and well enemies as well. Its a "Make America Great Again" Christmas ornament a real collectible only $149 no checks please cash or credit card. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by elgordo38

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, ttthailand said:

What exactly do these protesters want ? Trump won over ever possible obstacle. The American people spoke and now we need to support our president. Those who say Hillary won by 2m votes have to remember that first it is not the way America picks the winner. Second, Trump went where he had a chance to win and didn't just after votes. If he hit the big cities, NY, LA etc he would have received an even higher percentage. Third, the media, both parties, all the banking and industries, and the establishment all were in Hillary's corner. Forth, his real platform in the beginning of his run was similar to Bernie Sanders. Hillary was totally opposite until she flipped on just about everything.
And what do they want ... A coup like Thailand has every few years. Unstable government ? The US stock market is the highest it had ever been. People have hope for change. Russia is now relaxing their stance regarding a possible war. Trump has already improved America and he is not even in office yet.

 

Personally (I can't speak for the other guys) I will agree to cease and desist from all further demonstrations in return for an evening with Ivanka. I make this offer in the spirit of America coming together.

[sjaak327]

3 hours ago, Strange said:

 

It literally matters not. The red counties are Trump and 1 vote over Hillary is enough to paint it red. It does not matter as the popular vote in the state is the one that gets the EC votes but the point is to illustrate that there is a lot more Trump support than meets the eye. 

 

In illinois, yeah I'm sure there are hundreds in some counties and thousands in some counties and that IS the case 100%. 

 

Hillary got the Popular Vote but drive across america and you'll find a lot more Trump support.

 

People think Trump won by some freak of nature and that is just not the case. EC did its job.  

 

Your rural photo is likely a vehemently red state. The ones I showed are vehemently blue states but are almost completely red. 

You could drive through the whole country, fact remains, Hillary got almost 2 million votes more. The EC is all about throwing away votes on requirements or concerns in 1787, now we are a few centuries further.

 

It's funny how people that support the EC claim it is good because candidates will campaign in state X or Y, but forget that most of the non swing states see precious little of the candidates, and those states vastly outnumber the swing states. Time to get rid of this undemocratic system. And quite frankly, since each state already has their own parliaments, the person who calls the shot at the FEDERAL government should be elected on popular vote, where a vote from Manhattan counts just the same as the one from Tallahassee or hicksville wherever.

 

Campaign on televison will bring down the ridiculous costs as well, a win-win.

[F4UCorsair]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Any proof Trump is a strong leader? Other than talk, that is. Well, not even that really, considering the backpedaling and flip flopping.

 

 

Try his record in business.

[sjaak327]

13 minutes ago, F4UCorsair said:

 

 

Try his record in business.

a country isn't a business. Nothing more needs to be said, there are precious little CEOs that have ever been good leaders of a country.

[F4UCorsair]

8 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

a country isn't a business. Nothing more needs to be said, there are precious little CEOs that have ever been good leaders of a country.

 

as there are precious few who have gone from big business into politics.

[sjaak327]

1 minute ago, F4UCorsair said:

 

as there are precious few who have gone from big business into politics.

I know of a few. Trump with his shitty attitude will never be a great leader. A great leader knows when to show respect, he knows when a compromise is in order. To be honest, Trump isn't even qualified to run a bridge club...

[F4UCorsair]

1 hour ago, sjaak327 said:

I know of a few. Trump with his shitty attitude will never be a great leader. A great leader knows when to show respect, he knows when a compromise is in order. To be honest, Trump isn't even qualified to run a bridge club...

 

 

I'm sure you do know of a few, unnamed as they are, just as I'm equally sure that you meet them for coffee regularly, and discuss the ills of a Republican dominated USA. 

 

Being of the left, you are not prepared to give him an opportunity.   Your prejudices are too great, and it's why we're seeing the sore losers of the left of politics demonstrating, just as we did with Brexit.....we want another vote because the first didn't go our way!!!

 

Bleating that the system is unfair, or that HRC won 2M more of the popular vote, won't change the result..  He won, the Democrats lost, and unless they show some maturity, they'll be in the political wilderness a long time.

 

I'm prepared to WAIT UNTIL HE'S IN THE CHAIR and see how he performs before I pass any judgement, just as I did with Obama, and wasn't the world disappointed there??!!

 

The Democrats have HRC and their campaign managers to blame for their dismal performance.   She/they played the sexist/sexual abuse card way too hard, with programmed appearances of multiple women who claimed sexual abuse/molestation, many years after the event, and when none of it had been reported.  Even traditional Democrat voters didn't fall for that ruse.

 

I know...I know, it wasn't a dismal performance.   She did, after all, gain 2M more of the popular vote, but that's irrelevant, because, as I've mentioned, and you well know, but appear to not want to acknowledge, that is not the current system.

 

Trump's campaign managers were inthe genius category.   They targeted the electoral college vote, even criticizing it at times, taunting it to prove it wasn't as it seemed, and it PAID OFF!!  The Republicans have a majority in BOTH houses, and the President Elect is a Republican.   It doesn't get an y better than that.

Edited November 25, 2016 by F4UCorsair
addition

[boomerangutang]

14 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Not sure why you are mystified CMNR. No different from many other threads, but the recurring theme is the same. Liberal snowflakes that do not like the result, so on and on and on and on they go

   

'Liberal Snowflakes', as you call them, ACCEPTED THE ELECTION RESULTS.

 

That's in stark contrast to WHAT THE DIVIDER WAS SHOUTING FOR WEEKS BEFORE THE ELECTION.

 

Do Trump's sheeple remember?!?  They pledged to NOT AGREE with the election results UNLESS TRUMP WON.   

 

Which group is more fair-minded and democratic?  Which group abides by the Constitution?

[boomerangutang]

10 hours ago, Anthony5 said:

And may be he was right (about Trump whining about an impending rigged election), when I look at Hilary's popular vote count.

 

         So, are you saying the election was rigged to favor Trump?   I don't use the word 'rigged' to describe Trump's win of electoral votes.   Instead, I will say Trump's win was ugly.  Even right wingers admit there were shitstorms of false news from right wingers, exacerbated by Trump's incessant lying.  A big factor was Trump fans' belief (because they wanted to believe) every BS story that came down the tubes from either internet scammers or The Divider himself.  

 

          He told so many lies so often, that even Trump's sheeple won't be surprised when The Divider doesn't deliver on most of his promises.   Already, Trump is backing off from. . . . . . 

 

>>>>  appointing a special prosecutor to put HRC in jail

>>>>  the wall.  It's become a fence, ....maybe.

>>>>  deleting DOE (Education)

>>>>  deleting EPA and IRS

>>>>  Banning all Muslims from entering the US

 

Trump's sheeple cheered mightily each time The Divider shouted those things (and many other lies) from the stage.  I knew they were lies, but Trump's sheeple didn't know and didn't care.  All they wanted was their blundering con man in charge.   

[boomerangutang]

53 minutes ago, F4UCorsair said:

(responding to sjak327)

I'm sure you do know of a few, unnamed as they are, just as I'm equally sure that you meet them for coffee regularly, and discuss the ills of a Republican dominated USA. 

Being of the left, you are not prepared to give him an opportunity.   Your prejudices are too great, and it's why we're seeing the sore losers of the left of politics demonstrating, just as we did with Brexit.....we want another vote because the first didn't go our way!!!

Bleating that the system is unfair, or that HRC won 2M more of the popular vote, won't change the result..  He won, the Democrats lost, and unless they show some maturity, they'll be in the political wilderness a long time.

I'm prepared to WAIT UNTIL HE'S IN THE CHAIR and see how he performs before I pass any judgement, just as I did with Obama, and wasn't the world disappointed there??!!

The Democrats have HRC and their campaign managers to blame for their dismal performance.   She/they played the sexist/sexual abuse card way too hard, with programmed appearances of multiple women who claimed sexual abuse/molestation, many years after the event, and when none of it had been reported.  Even traditional Democrat voters didn't fall for that ruse.

I know...I know, it wasn't a dismal performance.   She did, after all, gain 2M more of the popular vote, but that's irrelevant, because, as I've mentioned, and you well know, but appear to not want to acknowledge, that is not the current system.

Trump's campaign managers were inthe genius category.   They targeted the electoral college vote, even criticizing it at times, taunting it to prove it wasn't as it seemed, and it PAID OFF!!  The Republicans have a majority in BOTH houses, and the President Elect is a Republican.   It doesn't get an y better than that.

 

Corsair: "Trump's campaign managers were in the genius category."

Boomers:  Perhaps so, if you define genius as character assassination coupled with a torrent of lies.

 

Corsair: "I'm prepared to WAIT UNTIL HE'S IN THE CHAIR and see how he performs before I pass any judgement,"

Boomers: I admit we have no choice, unless he's thrown out before 4 years are up.  But I'm already passing judgement on Trump because I've seen his character, I've listened to what he's said, I've seen the type of people he gathers around him, and who he appoints to positions in power.  He's an awful excuse for a human being.  If you were to ask certain people who have known him very well personally (who aren't in his family or aren't dependent on him for their jobs) .....ask those people who have spent hundreds of hours with him - to name five good qualities about Trump, they'll likely hem and haw and possibly come up with one:   He perseveres.   

 

 

 

[CMNightRider]

1 hour ago, boomerangutang said:

   

'Liberal Snowflakes', as you call them, ACCEPTED THE ELECTION RESULTS.

 

That's in stark contrast to WHAT THE DIVIDER WAS SHOUTING FOR WEEKS BEFORE THE ELECTION.

 

Do Trump's sheeple remember?!?  They pledged to NOT AGREE with the election results UNLESS TRUMP WON.   

 

Which group is more fair-minded and democratic?  Which group abides by the Constitution?

 

"Which group is more fair-minded and democratic" you ask.  Gee, just off the top of my head, I would have to give that one to Trump supporters.

 

All one has to do is look at who is in the streets, assaulting people, destroying public property, blocking traffic, burning the American flag, and supporting sinister groups like the anti-police Black Lives Matter group.

 

Trump supporters tend to work for a living.  You would have to look long and hard to find a blue collar worker burning an American flag or ambushing police officers.

Edited November 26, 2016 by CMNightRider

[boomerangutang]

       Sorry to post so often, but I just listened to a 7 minute NPR news report about 'fake news.'  NPR reporters tracked down Mr. Koler, one of the most (or THE most) popular fake news perpetrators, among many.  Fake news perpetrators can make as much as $35,000 bucks a month.  He tried putting out fake news that appeals to liberals, but it didn't work, because Liberals aren't easily duped.  Koler's entire success is built around FEEDING FAKE NEWS TO RIGHT WINGERS.  THEY'RE THE MOST GULLIBLE.  That's where the money is.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs

 

       Koler is a Democrat.  He doesn't think his many fake stories influenced the election, though some of his fake stories got 1.5 million hits and were frantically re-sent by right wing dummies hundreds of times.  Some of those fake news stories were repeated here on T.Visa.  Right wingers would swear they were real, and proved how corrupt HRC was.

 

       It's like crop circles or the Loch Ness Monster.  Even when the perpetrators of the hoaxes came forth, those who earlier believed the scams, STILL BELIEVE THEM.    It's no different than Right Wingers believing Trump's dogged campaign about Obama's birth.   Even when Trump admitted it was all vindictive, many Right Wingers still believe the Birther lies - even now.  

 

[Silurian]

6 hours ago, elgordo38 said:

Get em while their hot. The Donald is making this special offer to all his friends and well enemies as well. Its a "Make America Great Again" Christmas ornament a real collectible only $149 no checks please cash or credit card. 

 

Okay, you got me. I actually had to go look for this item. The reviews of it on Amazon are quite entertaining to read.

 

Donald Trump's Christmas ornament made Amazon reviews great again

http://mashable.com/2016/11/24/trump-ornament-amazon/#u69_EN1fakqk

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Silurian

[CMNightRider]

34 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

       Sorry to post so often, but I just listened to a 7 minute NPR news report about 'fake news.'  NPR reporters tracked down Mr. Koler, one of the most (or THE most) popular fake news perpetrators, among many.  Fake news perpetrators can make as much as $35,000 bucks a month.  He tried putting out fake news that appeals to liberals, but it didn't work, because Liberals aren't easily duped.  Koler's entire success is built around FEEDING FAKE NEWS TO RIGHT WINGERS.  THEY'RE THE MOST GULLIBLE.  That's where the money is.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs

 

       Koler is a Democrat.  He doesn't think his many fake stories influenced the election, though some of his fake stories got 1.5 million hits and were frantically re-sent by right wing dummies hundreds of times.  Some of those fake news stories were repeated here on T.Visa.  Right wingers would swear they were real, and proved how corrupt HRC was.

 

       It's like crop circles or the Loch Ness Monster.  Even when the perpetrators of the hoaxes came forth, those who earlier believed the scams, STILL BELIEVE THEM.    It's no different than Right Wingers believing Trump's dogged campaign about Obama's birth.   Even when Trump admitted it was all vindictive, many Right Wingers still believe the Birther lies - even now.  

 

 

There are several fake news sites out there targeting both conservatives and liberals.  With a little common sense, one can do a little research and determine what is real and make believe.

 

What is real, is the hordes of whining liberals out in the streets in many American cities, blocking traffic, destroying public property, assaulting people, burning the American flag, and attacking police officers, and in some cases even killing police officers because Hillary the Liar lost the election.

 

Maybe it's time for the liberal, left-wing wackos to take a break, and watch Trump make America great again.  Maybe they can even consider putting down their crack pipes, moving out of their mother's basements and actually get a job. 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by CMNightRider

[Strange]

6 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

You could drive through the whole country, fact remains, Hillary got almost 2 million votes more. The EC is all about throwing away votes on requirements or concerns in 1787, now we are a few centuries further.

 

It's funny how people that support the EC claim it is good because candidates will campaign in state X or Y, but forget that most of the non swing states see precious little of the candidates, and those states vastly outnumber the swing states. Time to get rid of this undemocratic system. And quite frankly, since each state already has their own parliaments, the person who calls the shot at the FEDERAL government should be elected on popular vote, where a vote from Manhattan counts just the same as the one from Tallahassee or hicksville wherever.

 

Campaign on televison will bring down the ridiculous costs as well, a win-win.

 

Hillarys 2 million more votes mean nothing other than to prove that Cali, Illinois, NY shouldn't be running the country.

 

Hillarys 2 million more votes mean nothing as the game was played based on the EC. 

 

Nobody even brought up abolishing the EC until Trump won so it was only an "undemocratic system" when they lose. 

 

Its impossible to speculate how it would have played out of the rules were the popular vote, and its not an after the fact foot-note of a game played by different rules.  If you look at the election map by county you can clearly see a lot of red and very little blue. Its obvious that campaigning would concentrate in those areas and I'm inclined to think that Trump would have still won. More Republican voters would be out in Cali, Illinois, NY - however more Democrat voters might turn out in "Hicksville" as well so who knows. 

 

I don't think the EC is perfect but I think its better than the popular vote. 

[Strange]

4 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

a country isn't a business. Nothing more needs to be said, there are precious little CEOs that have ever been good leaders of a country.

 

Taxation, Healthcare, Federal Budget want me to continue?

[Strange]

1 hour ago, boomerangutang said:

Koler is a Democrat.  He doesn't think his many fake stories influenced the election, though some of his fake stories got 1.5 million hits and were frantically re-sent by right wing dummies hundreds of times.  Some of those fake news stories were repeated here on T.Visa.  Right wingers would swear they were real, and proved how corrupt HRC was.

 

*gasp*   *so much shock*   *omg*

 

Sounds pretty much like Facebook, are we gonna start winging about that too?

[F4UCorsair]

2 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

 

Corsair: "Trump's campaign managers were in the genius category."

Boomers:  Perhaps so, if you define genius as character assassination coupled with a torrent of lies.

 

Corsair: "I'm prepared to WAIT UNTIL HE'S IN THE CHAIR and see how he performs before I pass any judgement,"

Boomers: I admit we have no choice, unless he's thrown out before 4 years are up.  But I'm already passing judgement on Trump because I've seen his character, I've listened to what he's said, I've seen the type of people he gathers around him, and who he appoints to positions in power.  He's an awful excuse for a human being.  If you were to ask certain people who have known him very well personally (who aren't in his family or aren't dependent on him for their jobs) .....ask those people who have spent hundreds of hours with him - to name five good qualities about Trump, they'll likely hem and haw and possibly come up with one:   He perseveres.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Character assassination?    Isn't that what HRC did to a huge voter base in calling them "The Deplorables"...and we now know how much that cost her, the prize she craved so much.

 

He can afford to persevere, or do whatever he wants right now, because he's President Elect, not the President.

 

I've said right from the beginning, when I took a bet about a year ago, that he'd be the President,  that he will be controlled, as they all are.   They don't unilaterally make decisions on ANYTHING, much less firing off a nuclear weapon as some clown/imbecile suggested a few pages back.

 

I agree that his personal qualities aren't the most desirable, but there have been no proved charges of groping women, despite the programmed 'coming out' of many women, and they are still hollow accusations.  As for business dealings, there isn't a person in his league who hasn't been a complete ******** to people around him.  Regrettably, that's what happens in big business, when big $$ are at stake.

 

However, there have been a number in the white house whose personal qualities were suspect, among them JFK, and the ""F" wasn't for "Fitzgerald", but "Fornicate", the son of a bootlegger, and Bill Clinton, who resembled a rabbit in personal conduct.

 

You can condemn him for what he's done, but I'll wait until I see what sort of President makes before I comment on his performance, the rest being largely irrelevant.....to me.

Edited November 26, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[Ulysses G.]

7 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Personally (I can't speak for the other guys) I will agree to cease and desist from all further demonstrations in return for an evening with Ivanka. I make this offer in the spirit of America coming together.

 

I concur. A master plan.

[F4UCorsair]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

I concur. A master plan.

7 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Personally (I can't speak for the other guys) I will agree to cease and desist from all further demonstrations in return for an evening with Ivanka. I make this offer in the spirit of America coming together.

 

Count me in, only in the interests of the US healing!!   Or her mother, more age appropriate.

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[JDGRUEN]

13 hours ago, Morch said:

 

"... Obama's reign of terror ...."

 

Not overdoing one bit, eh?

 

The Benghazi thing was investigated by how many GOP sponsored inquiries? I forgets. Seems like all these investigations did not scrap up enough to support impeachment.

 

When the hidden information was stonewalled by everyone in the State Department and the White House and even the Defense Dept. incriminating information - the smoking gun of course could not be found... but with Wikileaks and others it is seeping out... Then under the new AG for Trump and other key Executives - the truth - the smoking gun will come out... hiding information is hardly indications of innocence.

Edited November 26, 2016 by JDGRUEN

[Morch]

11 hours ago, tropo said:

"there is no requirement to "get behind the new president-elect".

 

 What should you do then? Spend 4 years protesting and fighting against him at every opportunity?

 

BTW, it was a suggestion, not a requirement. You can spend the next 4 or 8 years doing whatever you like.

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, my street protest days are long gone. I can understand how younger or more emotionally involved people would go out there, though. As long as they there's no violence, it's their right. If people were never to protest anything, politicians would get away with a whole lot more.

 

I doubt that the protests will persist for four years, at least not with the same intensity. Certainly not through the height of winter. But then, Trump is bound to do or say something that will fuel them up, so don't see it going away entirely.

 

Not supporting the president, not rallying behind the president and not embracing his views - all these are not the same as rejecting the election results etc. People do not simply give up their views because a candidate won. It looks like some posters find it easier treating the elections like a sports match. Winner, loser, and that sums it. Using this analogy, does anyone expect the fans to switch sides if their team loses? Hardly.

[jonbsails]

the founding fathers were terrified of what was called the tyranny of the majority. to have all the states agree to the constitution, it was written so smaller communities could have a voice, hence the Senate, with each state holding 2 votes.  the electoral college is an outgrowth of this. we do not have  will not have a democracy. we have a democratic republic. didn't people take civics class in junior high? you can plainly see from the maps that hrc won the urban areas. trumps victory is a celebration of the American way. god bless the wisdom of our founding fathers.