Foreign income brought into Thailand

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Cant you walk in and claim to have thai sourced income ?? 

 

Eg I am going to rent my property.. I need a tax number.. 

 

Does that not get you one on day 1 ?? 

 

I don't know is the short answer - the longer answer is that logically, anyone on a short stay visa would not be issued a residence certificate which is required for condo purchase.

 

And: tax residency is black and white I think, 183 days or not, otherwise how could a person who is only resident here say ten days per year, be tax resident.

Edited January 12, 2017 by chiang mai

[ubonjoe]

A baiting post and the expected replies have been removed. That should be the end of it.

[Lovethailandelite]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

 

A double taxation agreement exists between the two countries.

Yes I know. The OP appeared to not want to pay his tax in his country of source. I stated that if he was from the UK he must pay the tax on any money he derives in the UK in the UK and that he cannot opt out and pay it here. I then went on to say that if he offers himself up here to pay tax on money he wants to shift here then they will accept it.
Anybody can get a Tax ID here. As you said you need a Residency Certificate which again you only need an address and a rental agreement. The type of visa isn't an issue. I have also never ever heard of needing a Residence certificate to buy a Condo? Vehicles yes but never a Condo.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Yes I know. The OP appeared to not want to pay his tax in his country of source. I stated that if he was from the UK he must pay the tax on any money he derives in the UK in the UK and that he cannot opt out and pay it here. I then went on to say that if he offers himself up here to pay tax on money he wants to shift here then they will accept it.
Anybody can get a Tax ID here. As you said you need a Residency Certificate which again you only need an address and a rental agreement. The type of visa isn't an issue. I have also never ever heard of needing a Residence certificate to buy a Condo? Vehicles yes but never a Condo.

 

I do not agree that anyone can get a tax ID on demand. There have been instances reported here on TVF where tourists on visitors visa's and similar have tried and they have been kicked back by the Revenue Service and told to come back when their passport shows they have in fact been resident for 183 days or greater.

[Lovethailandelite]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

 

I do not agree that anyone can get a tax ID on demand. There have been instances reported here on TVF where tourists on visitors visa's and similar have tried and they have been kicked back by the Revenue Service and told to come back when their passport shows they have in fact been resident for 183 days or greater.

I am not going to argue the point but hand on heart in over 30 years I have never heard of problem for anyone to get one. 

[chiang mai]

27 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

I am not going to argue the point but hand on heart in over 30 years I have never heard of problem for anyone to get one. 

 

Five or ten years ago I would have been amazed to learn that 183 day residency was required to get a tax ID, it is perhaps a sign of the times that governments globally are now closing loop holes on many fronts.

Edited January 12, 2017 by chiang mai
grammar

[Lovethailandelite]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Five or ten years ago I would have been amazed to learn that 183 residency was required to get a tax ID, it is perhaps a sign of the times that governments globally are closing loop holes on many fronts.

No doubt if there is a loop hole to close then it's going to happen. I see major disruption in the next 12-18 months regarding back to back tourist visas being used to live here permanently. Then again can you blame immigration who 100% read these boards, coming down on it when people openly post they are 'renting' flight tickets which is 100% fraudulent as these companies that issue these 'Tickets' don't even book a flight and the same people then writing out a fictitious rental agreement copied from AirBNB or bought a book of blank ones from Big C? 
I tell you, it's all going to end in Tears.

[MANFROMBOCA]

19 hours ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Just got back from doing mine.

 

As usual very helpful and efficient, filled out the form for me, and with a smile.

when and where ???? , i just went back again and spoke to a supervisor he told me they are no longer filing out forms starting this year and that i have to fill out myself or go to an accounting office, other farangs being told same at jomtien revenue office while i was there

 

if you got your form filled in for you you were lucky and probably the last one

[12DrinkMore]

54 minutes ago, MANFROMBOCA said:

when and where ???? , i just went back again and spoke to a supervisor he told me they are no longer filing out forms starting this year and that i have to fill out myself or go to an accounting office, other farangs being told same at jomtien revenue office while i was there

 

if you got your form filled in for you you were lucky and probably the last one

 

Maybe Jomtien is flooded by foreigners expecting to have the forms filled in and the tax people got fed up with the demand, "you have to fill this in for me".

 

My local tax office hardly sees any foreigners.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Lovethailandelite said:

No doubt if there is a loop hole to close then it's going to happen. I see major disruption in the next 12-18 months regarding back to back tourist visas being used to live here permanently. Then again can you blame immigration who 100% read these boards, coming down on it when people openly post they are 'renting' flight tickets which is 100% fraudulent as these companies that issue these 'Tickets' don't even book a flight and the same people then writing out a fictitious rental agreement copied from AirBNB or bought a book of blank ones from Big C? 
I tell you, it's all going to end in Tears.

 

Again I agree that Immigration reads these boards but posters will be posters and most often don't help themselves. The problem of course is that when Immigration or The Revenue does decide to crack down, it will impact everyone, not just the crafty dodgers and the impoverished scammers, long term expats will get caught up in it and end up spending another X thousand Baht on agent fees to meet yet another official visa requirement..

[eisfeld]

8 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

The text on the web page to which you have linked and from which you have quoted is not Thailand's tax law. It is part of a guide regarding the tax law and it does not give the full picture. For the correct and full picture you would have to read the law itself, in its original Thai version.

At any rate, what matters in the end is how the Thai revenue department applies the tax law and regarding taxable income it includes the following:

1. For income earned in Thailand, the income earned during the tax year.

2. For income earned outside Thailand, the part of the income earned during the tax year which is brought into Thailand during the tax year.

In other words, the text you quoted is correct if one bears in mind that it applies to the 12 month period of the tax year, which is the calendar year. Go to a knowledgeable tax accountant or law firm for confirmation of this.


Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

 

 

Yes it's important to know that the link I posted is just a starting point and not the law. If you want the read an english version of the actual Revenue Code of Thailand (which unfortunately is not 100% correctly representing the Thai version so take that as you wish) then you can go to http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37749.0.html and also click around on the menu on the left.

 

Regarding your point 2.: The english version does *not* contain such a phrase and I've written to PWC (who also published that phrase) for clarification if the thai version contains it. My Thai is not good enough to take chances with this important point and I don't trust any accountant or law firm in Phuket :)

 

 

PS: to everyone who quotes the 183 days figure: It's wrong. The tax law says anyone who stays in Thailand for more than 180 days (e.g. 181 and up) in total in a tax/calendar year is a resident for tax purposes. It also has nothing to do with the immigration act. You can be a tax resident even though you only come to Thailand on visa exempt entries.

[OJAS]

8 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Have you researched this even a little ??

 

If the money is remitted to Thailand in the year it is earnt, then yes 100% it is taxable. 

 

 

 

So are you, in effect, saying that whatever double taxation agreements Thailand has entered into with other nations are,  in practice, a complete waste of time (and paper) and that, in my case, I am liable to pay tax both to the jolly old taxman in HMRC AND to his Thai counterpart at the respective UK and Thai rates on my UK-derived pension, etc income, on the grounds that I spend more than 183 days a year in Thailand?

[Felt 35]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

And to be clear: the Thai Revenue Service will only issue a Thai Tax ID if you can show you spend more than 183 days here each year.

 

180 up. I have to prove this yearly with copies from my passport plus a statement from me for how many days I have spent in Thailand annually and every year they ask if I really have been here more than 180 days so I get the feeling that they are not exactly over enthusiastic about all the work involved for a few Baht`s from foreigner

[chiang mai]

27 minutes ago, Felt 35 said:

 

180 up. I have to prove this yearly with copies from my passport plus a statement from me for how many days I have spent in Thailand annually and every year they ask if I really have been here more than 180 days so I get the feeling that they are not exactly over enthusiastic about all the work involved for a few Baht`s from foreigner

 

Thanks for confirming this point.

 

And trust Thailand to run contrary to international standards on tax residency at 180 days versus 183 for everywhere else in the world!

 

 

[LivinLOS]

33 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

So are you, in effect, saying that whatever double taxation agreements Thailand has entered into with other nations are,  in practice, a complete waste of time (and paper) and that, in my case, I am liable to pay tax both to the jolly old taxman in HMRC AND to his Thai counterpart at the respective UK and Thai rates on my UK-derived pension, etc income, on the grounds that I spend more than 183 days a year in Thailand?

 

 

No theres a DTA so you no longer pay the UK taxman on non UK derived income due to the DTA. I have no idea what you owe or where your money is sourced but.. 

 

After 180 days a year in Thailand your legally liable to pay taxes on all money you bring into Thailand that is earnt in that year. 

 

From day 1 you are liable to pay taxes on all money you 'earn' while working within in Thailand. This needs a work permit no matter where the source of this money comes from. 

[OJAS]

36 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

After 180 days a year in Thailand your legally liable to pay taxes on all money you bring into Thailand that is earnt in that year. 

 

 

So what happens if PAYE tax has already been deducted on this money in the UK (as in the case of my occupational pension, for example)? It seems to me that, regardless of any provision in the DTA, I shall, in practice, be taxed on it again in Thailand, and then have to go what looks like a cumbersome process to recover the UK tax (which HMRC and their Thai counterparts will no doubt, in practice, be in no hurry to conclude, leaving me significantly out of the pocket in the meantime).

 

The position is further complicated in my case by the fact that some of this money would relate to property income which would appear to be solely taxable in the UK according to the DTA!

 

At present I get all my income (occupational and UK state pension + property rent) paid into my UK bank account and then get what I need to live on here transferred to my Thai account. Maybe the best way would be to declare as much of it as I humanly could to the Thai tax authorities as property income which has already been taxed in the UK in accordance with the DTA, leaving the minimum possible relating to pension income which has already been taxed at source to be battled over here subsequently?

 

But I definitely foresee a bureaucratic nightmare which would almost certainly have me reaching for the bottle big time were this all ever to come to pass in practice!

[Lovethailandelite]

4 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

So what happens if PAYE tax has already been deducted on this money in the UK (as in the case of my occupational pension, for example)? It seems to me that, regardless of any provision in the DTA, I shall, in practice, be taxed on it again in Thailand, and then have to go what looks like a cumbersome process to recover the UK tax (which HMRC and their Thai counterparts will no doubt, in practice, be in no hurry to conclude, leaving me significantly out of the pocket in the meantime).

 

The position is further complicated in my case by the fact that some of this money would relate to property income which would appear to be solely taxable in the UK according to the DTA!

 

At present I get all my income (occupational and UK state pension + property rent) paid into my UK bank account and then get what I need to live on here transferred to my Thai account. Maybe the best way would be to declare as much of it as I humanly could to the Thai tax authorities as property income which has already been taxed in the UK in accordance with the DTA, leaving the minimum possible relating to pension income which has already been taxed at source to be battled over here subsequently?

 

But I definitely foresee a bureaucratic nightmare which would almost certainly have me reaching for the bottle big time were this all ever to come to pass in practice!

The easy answer is only bring money in to Thailand that was and can be proved to of been earned in the previous year. In your case I see no reason for anybody to look for you but you never can tell. For those that are having pensions or earnings paid directly into a Thai Bank account, it could be a whole different issue and indeed they could very easily be finding themselves Taxed again here.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

So what happens if PAYE tax has already been deducted on this money in the UK (as in the case of my occupational pension, for example)? It seems to me that, regardless of any provision in the DTA, I shall, in practice, be taxed on it again in Thailand, and then have to go what looks like a cumbersome process to recover the UK tax (which HMRC and their Thai counterparts will no doubt, in practice, be in no hurry to conclude, leaving me significantly out of the pocket in the meantime).

If PAYE you can either get a non resident tax code, so it doesnt happen ongoing, and claim it back at the end of the tax year, if the UK tax man agrees. 

 

You will need of course to pass the uk non resident criteria.. Thats down to what 90 days in any one tax year ?? Property ownership, even ownership of vehicles can complicate this now, the UK tax officials want to see a 'clear break from your UK life' no wives in uk homes or kids in uk schools, all these can affect it. 

 

If your out of pocket or not isnt legally anyones problem but yours.. Theres a DTA agreement yes, if your in Thailand over 180 days your tax resident here. How people dont know this or assume differently kind of baffles me. 

 

Its so simple though, dont live so hand to mouth that you cant keep your remittances to Thailand from the same year. Just bring in in 2017 money earnt only in 2016. 

 

 

[localczar]

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

So are you, in effect, saying that whatever double taxation agreements Thailand has entered into with other nations are,  in practice, a complete waste of time (and paper) and that, in my case, I am liable to pay tax both to the jolly old taxman in HMRC AND to his Thai counterpart at the respective UK and Thai rates on my UK-derived pension, etc income, on the grounds that I spend more than 183 days a year in Thailand?

if a foreigner pays income tax in Thailand they should be provided with any /all social benefits applicable to all Thai's. Thats not the case, income tax is a term I have only just heard in my 15 years in Thailand. I know of NO farangs who live in TH and work abroad, are on retirement visa's, stay her long term in one form or another, etc and there has NEVER been a discussion of this income tax requirement. It may be a rule somewhere, someplace in the thai system but obviously it is not legislated into law or it would in all likelihood be rigorously enforced, which it is not leaving me to wonder where these thai tax experts find these absurdities.

 

The tax agreements between countries avoids double taxation;  any taxes paid in host country are a credit to whats owed in your country of citizenship...it doesn't get much more simple than that.

[Evilbaz]

LIL - have you had an epiphany?

 

You - promoting paying tax under very grey circumstances 555!

[GordonP]

if a foreigner pays income tax in Thailand they should be provided with any /all social benefits applicable to all Thai's. Thats not the case, income tax is a term I have only just heard in my 15 years in Thailand. I know of NO farangs who live in TH and work abroad, are on retirement visa's, stay her long term in one form or another, etc and there has NEVER been a discussion of this income tax requirement. It may be a rule somewhere, someplace in the thai system but obviously it is not legislated into law or it would in all likelihood be rigorously enforced, which it is not leaving me to wonder where these thai tax experts find these absurdities.
 
The tax agreements between countries avoids double taxation;  any taxes paid in host country are a credit to whats owed in your country of citizenship...it doesn't get much more simple than that.

The very first time I had to submit "Householders report of etc..." (apologies I am away from my paper work at this moment) at Jomtien Immigration when I leased my apartment to a foreigner I was asked for my TIN. Didn't have one and was told in no uncertain terms that I had to have one or a work permit by the time I next submitted a report.
That is why I went through the steps mentioned in my previous post. It is income derived on Thailand from a Thai asset.
I know many many are living below the radar and good luck to them. However being personally noticed from day 1 I conform.
There is no DTA with my tax authority but luckily I can season my income for a calendar year before remitting to Thailand.

Sent from my Pro using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

You will need of course to pass the uk non resident criteria.. Thats down to what 90 days in any one tax year ?? Property ownership, even ownership of vehicles can complicate this now, the UK tax officials want to see a 'clear break from your UK life' no wives in uk homes or kids in uk schools, all these can affect it. 

 

 

Depends on the outcome of the Statutory Residency Test in your case, I think - see from flowchart on page 9 of this HMRC guidance note:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/547118/160803_RDR3_August2016_v2_0final_078500.pdf

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by OJAS

[Maestro]

A distinction is made between between residence for immigration purposes and residence for tax purposes.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[Maestro]

10 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

So are you, in effect, saying that whatever double taxation agreements Thailand has entered into with other nations are,  in practice, a complete waste of time (and paper) and that, in my case, I am liable to pay tax both to the jolly old taxman in HMRC AND to his Thai counterpart at the respective UK and Thai rates on my UK-derived pension, etc income, on the grounds that I spend more than 183 days a year in Thailand?

 

Double taxation agreements are negotiated bilaterally and therefore different from one country to the next.Where an agreement exists, the calculation of taxable income and the assessment of tax due takes of course the provisions of the double taxation agreement into account. After all, the purpose of the agreement is to avoid that two counties both levy income tax on the same part of the income.

 

With double taxation agreements varying greatly one from the other, anybody wishing to discuss his country's agreement with Thailand should do so in the Home Country Forum.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[LivinLOS]

12 hours ago, localczar said:

iIt may be a rule somewhere, someplace in the thai system but obviously it is not legislated into law or it would in all likelihood be rigorously enforced, which it is not leaving me to wonder where these thai tax experts find these absurdities.

 

 

Where we find it.. Thai Tax Law !! It really is that simple. 

 

If you are here 180 days in any year any funds you remit to Thailand in the year you earn them.. Legally need to be declared and are subject to Thai tax. 

 

If you perform any work while physically within the kingdom, that work from day 1 legally needs to be declared and is subject to Thai Tax. 

 

Dont work in Thailand, and dont remit to Thailand funds that you earn inside that calendar year. Is that so hard a tax proposition to understand ? 

[OJAS]

13 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Its so simple though, dont live so hand to mouth that you cant keep your remittances to Thailand from the same year. Just bring in in 2017 money earnt only in 2016. 

 

Bearing in mind that a Thai tax year runs from 1st January to 31st December whereas a UK tax year runs from 6th April to 5th April, I think that you are exaggerating the supposed "simplicity" here somewhat!

[LivinLOS]

2 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Bearing in mind that a Thai tax year runs from 1st January to 31st December whereas a UK tax year runs from 6th April to 5th April, I think that you are exaggerating the supposed "simplicity" here somewhat!

 

Why does the UK tax year effect where you put you tax paid uk earnings ?? This is the Thai tax code we are talking about. 

 

Just put your earnings in the bank (non Thai).. dont bring to Thailand any you earn this calendar year.. Surely thats not complex ??

Edited January 13, 2017 by LivinLOS

[OJAS]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Why does the UK tax year effect where you put you tax paid uk earnings ?? This is the Thai tax code we are talking about. 

 

Just put your earnings in the bank (non Thai).. dont bring to Thailand any you earn this calendar year.. Surely thats not complex ??

 But you conveniently omit to mention the little matter of seeking reimbursement from HMRC for tax due to the Thai taxman which has already been deducted at source in the UK. Not quite so straightforward when the tax years don't match each other, would you not agree?

[LivinLOS]

Let me get this right.. You want to pay no tax to the Thais.. and no tax to the british ?? 

[Mark123456]

On 1/11/2017 at 3:48 PM, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Infrastructure, government, law and order, hospitals.

 

I realise that there will be a few sceptics deriding this list, but on the whole I reckon that most foreigners get an excellent deal out of what tax they pay. Most only pay VAT on goods and services.

 

Basically the country runs quite well, steady economic growth, mostly smiles and friendly people and compared to Europe a solid banking system.

VAT and a hefty chunk of import tax unless you limit yourself to locally produced goods. Many of us pay private hospital fees so we derive no benefits as far as medical care is concerned, and yes, I am tempted to deride the infrastructure and law and order components that you mentioned.