17 minutes ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

 

That there is hostility among some men I'm willing to accept, just like hostility from some Western women towards any man living in Thailand. (Although this is also not something I have encountered, but people claim it happens.)

 

The thing though that has everyone baffled, including the women here, is the actual topic of this discussion, and notion that people striking up a friendly conversation somehow demeans her as an intellectual whore, and that this represents a challenge her life.

 

We then got completely preposterous grouping of men in a Venn diagram with two intersecting circles of those hostile to her, and those attempting a friendly conversation.   And all of it was a problem.   

 

You can rant a little in the general direction of men making uncouth comments here, but let's not forget that the original post was quite preposterous.

 

Not sure you read the entire topic, but check out some of the direct replies to the OP from NancyL and the one following it by Bhuddalady. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/963547-intellectual-whore/?page=2#comment-11520233   

 

 

It may have baffled you, but its inaccurate to say that it 'has everyone baffled'. Several posters have found the OP's points comprehensible. 

12 minutes ago, amykat said:

 

It is because we farang women are really quite popular in own special way!!

 

Hell, I like them so much I married one. 

1 hour ago, MaeJoMTB said:

 

 

I have not been posting in this forum for a while as I have been spending a lot of time in the Philippines. The women speak excellent English and totally get our humour and culture and seem to have an understanding of the world outside the Philippines. The ones I have met are also generally younger, much better educated and expect a lot less in the way of financial rewards than their Thai equivalents. Not to mention once you marry a Filipino the VISA is easy and you can work from day 1 (if you have the need to earn money).

 

Good choice SB!

 

 

 

But you are my George Clooney ..you can't leave CM!! Did you forget???

13 minutes ago, SoiBiker said:

 

It may have baffled you, but its inaccurate to say that it 'has everyone baffled'. Several posters have found the OP's points comprehensible. 

 

I too didn't have any trouble comprehending the OP's comments.

 

But the thing that did baffle me was that, here in 2017, so many male members of the ThaiVisa community were willing to come here and post arguably Neanderthal/misogynist views of women from their own community. Now THAT is baffling...

 

37 minutes ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

 

That there is hostility among some men I'm willing to accept, just like hostility from some Western women towards any man living in Thailand. (Although this is also not something I have encountered, but people claim it happens.)

 

The thing though that has everyone baffled, including the women here, is the actual topic of this discussion, and notion that people striking up a friendly conversation somehow demeans her as an intellectual whore, and that this represents a challenge her life.

 

We then got completely preposterous grouping of men in a Venn diagram with two intersecting circles of those hostile to her, and those attempting a friendly conversation.   And all of it was a problem.   

 

You can rant a little in the general direction of men making uncouth comments here, but let's not forget that the original post was quite preposterous.

 

Not sure you read the entire topic, but check out some of the direct replies to the OP from NancyL and the one following it by Bhuddalady. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/963547-intellectual-whore/?page=2#comment-11520233   

 

Thank you Winnie.  Yes, these two posts by Buddhalady and me do show different ways that older western ladies are treated here.  Sometimes, we're met with contempt as in, "who gave you a long-term visa", sometimes we're seen as a sympathetic ear for a lonely guy to pour out his heart about his poor relationship with his Thai partner (whom he has no intention of leaving), sometimes  we may be the object of someone wanting to have a western "friend with benefit" and sometimes we're met with rejection and isolated, as Buddhalady is when she'd like to join the western men at her local, rather than being placed at the "ladies table" which just happens to be all Thai.

  

But, mostly, I've found the western men to be perfectly normal.  If I'm friendly and kind, that's the response I receive in kind.   

27 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

But still, you can't understand the disconnect/discomfort you might feel if one group of people were repeatedly being personally offensive/dismissive to you, and then at the same time, members of that same group at times wanted to chat you up socially??? [Since I'm putting the shoes on your feet, I'm leaving out of the comparative equation the OP's added issues about married farangs with Thai wives].

 

"The same group" ?    By being white and male?  That's incredibly shortsighted, not to mention sexist.

 

Clearly it's not the same group:  it's some sad angry sexist people, and then there are normal people who are friendly.

 

I might be in that second group.

 

The clear allegation though is that the normal people who are friendly are also somehow doing something wrong by using her as an intellectual whore.  That's the baffling part.

 

But if I'm reading way too much in her post,  and her question / discovery was actually just that "hey, some farang men are nice and some are <deleted>, they are not all the same" then yes I'm happy if that's resolved now. 

 

 

1 minute ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

The clear allegation though is that the normal people who are friendly are also somehow doing something wrong by using her as an intellectual whore.  That's the baffling part.

 

I think the part of the issue you're addressing is, the OP apparently felt uncomfortable about the "friendly men" who wanted to chat with her on farang topics using her as an outlet for that, and presumably, satisfying with her a need that they couldn't get satisfied with their Thai wives at home. If I was a woman, I could understand feeling uneasy about that, depending on exactly how those interactions went.

 

My answer to the questions you ask:  

1.  Why do men show their contempt for you at times?  A:  Probably because you are behaving in some contemptible way.  In Western society, a man has to pretend he respects arrogant and presumptuous people, but here, we are free to express ourselves more honestly without worrying that sex will be used against us as a weapon.

 

2.  Why do men seek your intellectual company at other times?  A:  your question makes it sound like it's the same guys showing contempt while seeking your company.  My experience in Thailand is guys get starved for intellectual company.  It's perfectly normal to get a bit desperate for it.  At the same time, part of an honest intellectual conversation might be to express contempt.  I see no contradiction.  

 

Perhaps it would help if you would give an example of what you are talking about so we can tell if you are hallucinating or what.  

24 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I think the part of the issue you're addressing is, the OP apparently felt uncomfortable about the "friendly men" who wanted to chat with her on farang topics using her as an outlet for that, and presumably, satisfying with her a need that they couldn't get satisfied with their Thai wives at home. If I was a woman, I could understand feeling uneasy about that, depending on exactly how those interactions went.

 

 

Well it would definitely be an interesting new stretching of the concept of being faithful in a relationship, when chatting with a woman on world affairs is now frowned upon.    

 

Not sure if there are groups of people who genuinely feel that way, outside of extreme feminists or Wahabist Saudi Arabia perhaps.

 

In our environs though I think most people's wives (Thai or otherwise) wouldn't be overly upset to learn that her husband talked about Brexit or Trump's inauguration with a Farang woman at the post office.

 

( Heck she knows I speak with actual whores sex workers pretty regularly and is reasonably fine with that, too.  Neither are apparently perceived as a threat and I guess that's true enough. )

 

44 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

My answer to the questions you ask:  

1.  Why do men show their contempt for you at times?  A:  Probably because you are behaving in some contemptible way.  In Western society, a man has to pretend he respects arrogant and presumptuous people, but here, we are free to express ourselves more honestly without worrying that sex will be used against us as a weapon.

 

2.  Why do men seek your intellectual company at other times?  A:  your question makes it sound like it's the same guys showing contempt while seeking your company.  My experience in Thailand is guys get starved for intellectual company.  It's perfectly normal to get a bit desperate for it.  At the same time, part of an honest intellectual conversation might be to express contempt.  I see no contradiction.  

 

Perhaps it would help if you would give an example of what you are talking about so we can tell if you are hallucinating or what.  

 

You know, your point 1 ..several men have said this, here and at other times in Thailand, more to do with the sex as a weapon thing.  Somebody today made a point also about men here dropping all their pretenses and feeling free to be their "true selves."

 

But I have to say that I wasn't AWARE that you guys were faking it and I personally was never using sex as a WEAPON.  So, if you pretended to like me and be my friend,  because you hoped to have sex with me, and I would have told you that I was with someone and not interested in you in that way, or not right now, and you pursued me, as a friend anyway, than that is on YOU. You have actually been scamming me if you were faking it, not the other way around.  I don't know what your comment about being arrogant or presumptuous has to do with it actually, but many men come here and say they are sick of people like that in West also.  I think this must have to do with your own lack of self-esteem. I have never felt that I have to "pretend" to respect any people back home.

 

So what you are saying, is that you pretended to respect WOMEN at home, (not people) and now you can express yourself more honestly here. . which translates into "I don't respect WOMEN and I won't fake it here."

 

Then you add a big dose of blame to the woman ...why are men showing you contempt? Because you deserve it, you F'ing bitch.

 

Have I got that right??

1 hour ago, wealthychef said:

My answer to the questions you ask:  

1.  Why do men show their contempt for you at times?  A:  Probably because you are behaving in some contemptible way.

 

Or equally "probably," just because the guys involved are contemptuous jerks.

 

But for some reason, you felt compelled to automatically blame the woman.... without knowing her or having any first-hand knowledge of the interactions that occurred.

 

Do you always make those kinds of gender-blaming presumptions?

Well controversy is what you expected and you have got that in bucket loads...

I had a good friend some years ago, an American woman in her 50s that had been married and had children with a Thai man. He left her for a young Thai woman after about 12 years. She was bitter about what happened but was intelligent and good company. She had no problem with farang men with Thai wives/GFs and was always very nice to them. Maybe you have an attitude that gets up people's nose that you don't realise you have.

I think you need to reassess the reason you have retired in Thailand?

From the post it seems you have no family with you.

Consider:

Why did I choose Thailand and CM?

What did I expect and what do I actually want?

Do I like it here?

Why do I seek the company of western men, and then reject it?

Also:

You might have mistakenly thought the ex-pat community to be like holiday makers, all friends together for a few weeks enjoying themselves. It's not like that. I don't normally talk to people in the post office or supermarket queue in the UK. I don't here either, whatever colour.

I would add:

Are you sure the male westerners are hostile? Maybe they are being polite, but a feminist attitude can put a different twist on things.

 

Quite what you mean by an "intellectual whore" doesn't really gel, if you think a coffee and a chat constitutes prostitution I think you need help...

If you want to make friends don't be so negative.

 

From a medical point of view, if you don't need psychiatric help maybe you should consider HRT.

 

 

 

A few days ago I decided to add to this blog/stream/forum.  I had quite at lot to say but after 5 minutes I read what I'd wrote and deleted everything.  It's not my place to interpret what the OP said.

 

If I have doubts or queries then perhaps I'll pm her with relevant  questions.

 

I can read and understand some of her feelings,  and perhaps form my own ideas.  But they are my own ideas on what I percieve to be her way of thinking. 

 

My advice is that not all men are pigs. And ask that you don't pre- judge newcomers on your past.

 

Personally I  don't look at western women here in a comtemptable  way.  I treat all women the same albeit a preference for lovely Thai ladies..... and my girlfriend of 4 years enforces my preference.

 

As they say....different strokes for different folks.

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

 

 

I would add:

 

 

Are you sure the male westerners are hostile? Maybe they are being polite, but a feminist attitude can put a different twist on things

 

 

I just want to define this for everyone. It seems to be a dirty word and I wonder why? Do you even know what it means? Can you tell me what things you are against that are on the following list:

 

 

The feminist movement (also known as the women's liberation movement, the women's movement, or simply feminism) refers to a series of political campaigns for reforms on issues such as reproductive rights, domestic violence, maternity leave, equal pay, women's suffrage, sexual harassment, and sexual violence, all of which fall under the label of feminism and the feminist movement. The movement's priorities vary among nations and communities, and range from opposition to female genital mutilation in one country, to opposition to the glass ceiling in another.

Feminism in parts of the western world has gone through three waves. First-wave feminism was oriented around the station of middle- or upper-class white women and involved suffrage and political equality. Second-wave feminism attempted to further combat social and cultural inequalities. Third-wave feminism is continuing to address the financial, social and cultural inequalities and includes renewed campaigning for greater influence of women in politics and media. In reaction to political activism, feminists have also had to maintain focus on women's reproductive rights, such as the right to abortion.

 

 

Can you tell me what kind of ATTITUDE would be displayed by someone who believed in such things, while talking with them in line at Rimping?  Could you explain the difference in attitude that a man would display who believes these things vs a woman??

 

A common trait among sexist and dare I say, misogynistic men, is that they would like their daughters to have certain rights and privileges but not their wives. They would like their daughters to be well educated and work for example.  You can see this with a man like Trump.  See how he treats Ivanka as compared to his wife. This is not just my opinion, although I did recognize it, the NY Times did a piece on it (if I remember correctly ..if not, it was some other major publication.)

 

Some of you throw these words around willy-nilly. They are meaningless except to be pejorative to a certain class of people. Feminism has no negative meaning in today's society.   It is like racism ..that is negative.  Feminism is being against inequality ..if you are against Feminism you are FOR INEQUALITY ..are you FOR RACISM??

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, amykat said:

Some of you throw these words around willy-nilly. They are meaningless except to be pejorative to a certain class of people. Feminism has no negative meaning in today's society.   It is like racism ..that is negative.  Feminism is being against inequality ..if you are against Feminism you are FOR INEQUALITY ..are you FOR RACISM??

Feminism is a negative ideology, in the modern sense equality has been replaced with supremacy and privilege, and a guise for both overt and covert misandry.

I am anti-feminist, and I believe the ideology you should be looking for is egalitarianism to which I fully subscribe. 

50 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Are you sure the male westerners are hostile? Maybe they are being polite, but a feminist attitude can put a different twist on things.

..............

From a medical point of view, if you don't need psychiatric help maybe you should consider HRT.

 

 

Wow....  wow wow wow....   Another entry for the Thai Visa anti-woman all star awards....

29 minutes ago, amykat said:

 

I just want to define this for everyone. It seems to be a dirty word and I wonder why? Do you even know what it means? Can you tell me what things you are against that are on the following list:

 

 

The feminist movement (also known as the women's liberation movement, the women's movement, or simply feminism) refers to a series of political campaigns for reforms on issues such as reproductive rights, domestic violence, maternity leave, equal pay, women's suffrage, sexual harassment, and sexual violence, all of which fall under the label of feminism and the feminist movement. The movement's priorities vary among nations and communities, and range from opposition to female genital mutilation in one country, to opposition to the glass ceiling in another.

Feminism in parts of the western world has gone through three waves. First-wave feminism was oriented around the station of middle- or upper-class white women and involved suffrage and political equality. Second-wave feminism attempted to further combat social and cultural inequalities. Third-wave feminism is continuing to address the financial, social and cultural inequalities and includes renewed campaigning for greater influence of women in politics and media. In reaction to political activism, feminists have also had to maintain focus on women's reproductive rights, such as the right to abortion.

 

2

 

2

That's a direct, word for word cut and paste from Wikipedia. You should have at least posted the link:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movement

 

 

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Wow....  wow wow wow....   Another entry for the Thai Visa anti-woman all star awards....

Equality means equality. Feminism does not promote equality.

That apart, it seems fairly obvious this woman is having problems adjusting to life as an ex-pat in Thailand.

She has some problem and she needs help of some kind to solve it, or she would never have written the post!

I love women, but not wimin.

Be polite and open a door for a woman in the west and you get abused, or if you don't you are still abused...

 

You must live on a different planet, Venus perhaps?

 

16 hours ago, hdkane said:

Speaking as an American...every legal procedure and policy is designed to benefit women over men...alimony, child custody, property division during divorce, hiring practices by private and public companies, promotion criteria, salaries, grievance procedures, etc., etc....

 

and men are getting tired of it...the perception that women try to perpetuate is that men come to Thailand because they have been rejected by women in their home country, or cannot deal with "independent and strong" women...the truth is that far more of us are simply tired of the bullsh!t from women who expect to be supported, but offer only resentment at imagined slights...

 

an argument that EVERY man has had...his wife/gf wants to be supported...but he is constantly harped on because he spends so much time at work...so the wife/gf finds another fellow, and takes all the goods that the husband/bf purchased for her while he was working...sound familiar?

 

I can tell you have been to law school ..that would be TRUMP LAW SCHOOL in the Republic of Bullshit!! Incorporated in Cuba. Right?

 

You must be a professor there. What do you teach, Torts, Contracts, Property, Civil Procedure, Criminal Law, Ethics, Evidence ...I bet you teach everything because I can see that you know a lot!!  You are probably the Dean too! 

 

Could you please PM me your phone number I need some advice??

5 minutes ago, tropo said:

That's a direct, word for word cut and paste from Wikipedia. You should have at least posted the link:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movement

 

 

And Wikipedia is the be all and end all of infinite wisdom????

 

39 minutes ago, amykat said:

 

I just want to define this for everyone. It seems to be a dirty word and I wonder why? Do you even know what it means? Can you tell me what things you are against that are on the following list:

 

 

The feminist movement (also known as the women's liberation movement, the women's movement, or simply feminism) refers to a series of political campaigns for reforms on issues such as reproductive rights, domestic violence, maternity leave, equal pay, women's suffrage, sexual harassment, and sexual violence, all of which fall under the label of feminism and the feminist movement. The movement's priorities vary among nations and communities, and range from opposition to female genital mutilation in one country, to opposition to the glass ceiling in another.

Feminism in parts of the western world has gone through three waves. First-wave feminism was oriented around the station of middle- or upper-class white women and involved suffrage and political equality. Second-wave feminism attempted to further combat social and cultural inequalities. Third-wave feminism is continuing to address the financial, social and cultural inequalities and includes renewed campaigning for greater influence of women in politics and media. In reaction to political activism, feminists have also had to maintain focus on women's reproductive rights, such as the right to abortion.

 

 

Can you tell me what kind of ATTITUDE would be displayed by someone who believed in such things, while talking with them in line at Rimping?  Could you explain the difference in attitude that a man would display who believes these things vs a woman??

 

A common trait among sexist and dare I say, misogynistic men, is that they would like their daughters to have certain rights and privileges but not their wives. They would like their daughters to be well educated and work for example.  You can see this with a man like Trump.  See how he treats Ivanka as compared to his wife. This is not just my opinion, although I did recognize it, the NY Times did a piece on it (if I remember correctly ..if not, it was some other major publication.)

 

Some of you throw these words around willy-nilly. They are meaningless except to be pejorative to a certain class of people. Feminism has no negative meaning in today's society.   It is like racism ..that is negative.  Feminism is being against inequality ..if you are against Feminism you are FOR INEQUALITY ..are you FOR RACISM??

 

 

 

 

BS of the 1st degree...

You don't seem to have any conception as to how it works.

It is completely duplicitous and is used to deny men of their rights as human beings, with seriously biased laws.

Equality means equal rights.

Put the seat up when you have done, you have hands....

 

3 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

BS of the 1st degree...

You don't seem to have any conception as to how it works.

It is completely duplicitous and is used to deny men of their rights as human beings, with seriously biased laws.

Equality means equal rights.

Put the seat up when you have done, you have hands....

 

Sorry George, I differ on this, employ the lid by both genders, (we all have hands).

9 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Equality means equality. Feminism does not promote equality.

That apart, it seems fairly obvious this woman is having problems adjusting to life as an ex-pat in Thailand.

She has some problem and she needs help of some kind to solve it, or she would never have written the post!

I love women, but not wimin.

Be polite and open a door for a woman in the west and you get abused, or if you don't you are still abused...

 

You must live on a different planet, Venus perhaps?

 

 

Well we aren't even close to equality are we?  What shall we call the movement? The equality movement?  Have you heard of "Equal Rights for Women?"  "Feminism" started years and years ago, with small movements towards certain goals.  A poster before you claims, as some men now do, that it is about being superior to men. I don't see how that is possible if we haven't even caught up with you yet. I posted an actual definition, you two posted your opinion. Why don't you post a valid source?

 

Show me an academic journal or something relevant that tells me that "Feminism" as defined by women who are practicing it, means they want to be superior to men. Not just your feeling about it, as a pissed off man in Thailand.

 

I have never known a woman to get angry about a man opening a door, and not so much about not opening one either. I think it is polite and good manners. I also open the door for people I am with. I think some person in a group should do this, but I have good manners.

7 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

BS of the 1st degree...

You don't seem to have any conception as to how it works.

It is completely duplicitous and is used to deny men of their rights as human beings, with seriously biased laws.

Equality means equal rights.

Put the seat up when you have done, you have hands....

 

Please specify.

 

Also please answer the questions in my post. Not one person has ever done that in this ENTIRE THREAD. I wonder WHY??

7 minutes ago, Paul Catton said:

Sorry George, I differ on this, employ the lid by both genders, (we all have hands).

Ha ha yes, but that is my point!

You may have encountered a creep or two and now are on the defensive. There are bad actors around toward women, but maybe some you meet are having to pay for other's transgressions when they are simply making small talk?

5 minutes ago, amykat said:

 

Well we aren't even close to equality are we?  What shall we call the movement? The equality movement?  Have you heard of "Equal Rights for Women?"  "Feminism" started years and years ago, with small movements towards certain goals.  A poster before you claims, as some men now do, that it is about being superior to men. I don't see how that is possible if we haven't even caught up with you yet. I posted an actual definition, you two posted your opinion. Why don't you post a valid source?

 

Show me an academic journal or something relevant that tells me that "Feminism" as defined by women who are practicing it, means they want to be superior to men. Not just your feeling about it, as a pissed off man in Thailand.

 

I have never known a woman to get angry about a man opening a door, and not so much about not opening one either. I think it is polite and good manners. I also open the door for people I am with. I think some person in a group should do this, but I have good manners.

But you ARE talking about equality. In reality it is not happening. Quotas do not take into account ability. I believe in a meritorious system. I was a single male parent and raised my son from 3 months by myself when my wife died. I worked too.

I have been abused several times for what I thought was common courtesy, not just opening doors, but no: "don't patronize me" was the retort. And then I have had: "Ignorant prat" delivered when I have not....

Make up your minds ladies. And drop the seat without moaning about it.

 

13 hours ago, cmsally said:

 

Just to clear that up - the only edit I can see is by the OP soon after it was posted. I know what lannarebirth is talking about as I remember reading it. But it hasn't been edited by any mods.

 

I read It too, before It was edited.

The OP realized she went a little too hard with  her post.

20 minutes ago, amykat said:

Please specify.

 

Also please answer the questions in my post. Not one person has ever done that in this ENTIRE THREAD. I wonder WHY??

I would say that simply you didn't explain your situation in any way that people can understand enough to give you a positive reply.

I say again, I think you need to reassess why you have come to Thailand and what you really want.

If you don't know and are not happy here maybe you should consider somewhere else that would provide what you need.

I said it might be your own attitude, if that is the case then you will find it difficult to be happy wherever you go....

Take a step back and look at the situation, consider the options and then maybe you will see for yourself what you need to do.

Don't just blame others....

On 17/01/2017 at 2:57 AM, rogeroc said:

 

I don't think any of us can ignore the fact that there is a strong (generalised) anti Western women feeling amongst a lot of guys living in CM and (in my opinion) there will be good reason for that. In some ways it is no different from certain Nationalities having negative traits, Brits are thugs, Americans are brash etc. There is actually a lot of truth behind theses generalisations but at the end of the day everyone is an individual and should be treated as such. However i cannot see why any guy not being intellectually stimulated by a Thai wife would not simply do all that intellectual stuff wth his male companions, why would he seek a female for that ?   Also there are also a lot of Thai ladies out there (not excluding the bar girls) who you can really enjoy talking to for an evening, even if not about Brexit

What a load of old bunkum.

 

There is not a strong anti western women feeling among Farlang men living in Chiang Mai. Are you seriously suggesting that Farlang men should stick by only getting into conversations with male companions and ignore western women as if they are invisible or out of bounds? Sorry, but you come across as sexist, or maybe you think it`s better to converse with Thai women because they are easy? I would much rather sit have a good conversation, a coffee and form a friendship with a western lady, even if she were 90 than a bargirl anytime.

 

Rubbish, absolute rubbish and negativity as are many of the posts on this thread.