Rights as an unmarried father

[Kenny202]

I recently separated from my girlfriend. We have a 9 month old son together. She left 2 months ago she told me to go and work and get her own money. She took him on a bus to her mums province. Next day she was crying wanting to come back. As it has happened over 20 times I told her I didn't want her back. She had my son a week. Didn't know how to feed him or take care of him and brought him back to live with me after 1 week and he's been with me ever since (2 months)Her family are drunks and gave her no support and in any case it is very difficult for her to take care of him alone...nor do I think she really wants to.

She has 3 other children which she abandoned to the father's (I only recently found out) and a very unstable history. If it came to a head to head battle in court of who the fittest parent would be it would be a no contest in my favor. She just has to many provable bad issues

I am talking to a lawyer now trying to find out the best way forward but getting mixed messages. I want to know the likely outcome and my chance of success before parting with money. We're not married but my name is on the thai birth certificate. At the very least I would like to legitimize myself as the father but from what I understand even if I had proof positive DNA tests etc she still has to consent to me being the father? Is that correct?

Ultimately I would like control of him. She is really bad news and will only bring bad in his life. I'm happy for her to come and see him etc (she lives 8 hours away in another province) but now I'm under constant threat of her coming to get him with me having zero say. She wouldn't come and get him for any good reason. Only out of spite. She is constantly telling me if I get a new lady she will come and get him. Or if I don't answer the tirade of jealous and maniacal messages she will come and get him.

A lot more to the story so please do not make assumptions or offer negative remarks please. Just want to know where I stand and what my best plan of attack would be.

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[MikeyIdea]

The child is only 9 months old so this must be done in Juvenile court. The mother doesn't have to give her consent in Juvenile, the judges can just order if they want but don't expect that to happen. Judges want "mutual agreement" and will go to length negotiating one

 

The good thing with Juvenile courts in Thailand is that they are really fair, there is normally no bias against fathers or westerners. The bad thing with Thailand is that it is your own lawyer you must watch out for, he is quite likely not going to fight very well for you actually

 

"Best plan of attack": I don't like that phrase really but if you really do this for the best of the child, then OK

 

- Whatever happened in the past about the mother being unsuitable:  If you have no evidence, then it only happened if you are the favoured one in court, otherwise not.

Point: Stay cool, accept the problems for as long as you need to collect good evidence to support your case

 

- Your lawyer is probably going to be your weakest link:

Point: Get an interpretor that is NOT coming from the lawyers side and make sure he is on your side. How is your Thai? If it is pretty OK, then another 100 legal words will do miracle.

 

- The judges don't want to order and your lawyer is probably going to be your weakest link 
- Your lawyer ends up in a difficult situation and will normally want you to accept a mutual agreement if the judges want one.

Point: You need to make the judges unwillingness to order and your lawyers wish for you to accept one your strength.

Make very clear to your lawyer from the beginning what your goals are and why (needs to be the best for the child, not you). Make very clear that you prefer to just let the judges order and take it to the Appeals court. Only a year or less waiting time. 

 

Some links to read, it will give you an idea about what to expect

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/949770-does-the-court-listen-to-12-year-old-childrens-wishes-in-case-of-divorce/#comment-11258492 - good info

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/944516-child-maintenance/#comment-11182589

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/944516-child-maintenance/#comment-11190079

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/949807-contested-divorce-2-houses-at-stake/?page=2#comment-11324758

 

This is a bit of a special case as the child is so young, only 9 months but that shouldn't affect much as the mother doesn't take care of the child even now. It should be quite possible for you to get 4-3 or more. Make sure you have clear evidence that you have taken care of the child since X months old alone  - very important.

 

Set expectations right already from the beginning: If Juvenile pushes for something not acceptable, then just let them order and go on to the Appeals court

 

From what you write: The mother is not that interested in taking care of the child anyway -> she'll lose interest over time 

 

Mikey

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by MikeyIdea
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[Kenny202]

Thank you so much for your detailed reply. I appreciate your time. My lawyer has since come back and clarified and concur with most of what you say. He is a farang lawyer in Bangkok but I have had problems with farang lawyers here before. The farang does the initials and introductions and then things are handed over to the Thai hacks who make ridiculous assumptions based on what the last farang client wanted, even after giving very clear and simple instructions. Then it is all your fault, you are being difficult and it becomes a big smarty pants competition.

 

The lawyer told me that no matter what proof I have of the mothers issues and previous neglect, it would be extremely unlikely a Thai court would award sole parental rights to me. He said they generally favour a Thai national over a foreigner irrespective of the circumstances. He did say the best I could hope for at this stage would be to be legitimised as the father and still I would only have 50% parental rights. Talking a reasonable amount of money to do also (60k baht). He also did say I could appeal but could take 2 or 3 costly appeals and a considerable amount of time (years) to be successful. I was quoted 20k to legitimise myself with a local Thai lawyer but that was when I was still living with my ex and she would have given her approval....which she may or may not do now. The lawyer told me he has recently fought his own personal case to get the rights to his own children and came up against the same barriers.

 

One thing I do have to be a little careful of is by me legitimising myself as the father, I could be actually giving her an incentive to take him as then she would.... I believe have recourse to claim a monthly payment from me and that may be attractive to her. She doesn't have money for lawyers etc but will be getting plenty of free advice from her own "farang wife" forum. Most of it usually incorrect. I would be interested to hear your comments on that?

 

So at the end of the day, I don't know what extra rights I will have by going to the expense and effort of making my self the legitimate father? It could be a step towards claiming full custody but that doesn't sound likely either. Only benefit I can see is that I would have full custody and some control should something happen to her....god willing. Am I reading that right?

 

I do also believe in time she will fade away as she has done with her other children. Her biggest fear is that I will meet a new lady and my son will accept her as his mum and forget her. Very selfish of course but her whole life is driven by self and jealousy.

[MikeyIdea]

11 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

The farang does the initials and introductions and then things are handed over to the Thai hacks who make ridiculous assumptions based on what the last farang client wanted, even after giving very clear and simple instructions. Then it is all your fault, you are being difficult and it becomes a big smarty pants competition.

Western lawyer first, sounds good for 60K. Bring your own Interpreter still applies, perhaps I should add unless you have a very good feeling about the Thai guy. There are lawyers who will ignore and recommend to order but they're not many. A Thai lawyer who works for a bigger firm will absolutely have good enough English to communicate well with you actually

 

11 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

The lawyer told me that no matter what proof I have of the mothers issues and previous neglect, it would be extremely unlikely a Thai court would award sole parental rights to me

Unless evidence of physical abuse or drug addiction yes

 

11 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

He said they generally favour a Thai national over a foreigner irrespective of the circumstances. He did say the best I could hope for at this stage would be to be legitimised as the father and still I would only have 50% parental rights

They do normally not favour Thai nationals = not correct. So use it to your favour :) Just shoot back: Good, then let's see the first level court only as a preliminary step and let the court order and we get the final decision from the Appels court. And add: It's normally only less than a year until that starts anyway. That is exactly what they don't want. If the court orders, then you will get legitimized and shared custody (do not worry about that) = either the mother takes care of the child until the Appeals court or you do it. Not her parents, not anyone else

 

True that the best you can hope for is shared custody but that is only part of it. Possession of the child is really important. Juvenile takes a decision in the best interest of the child, especially future of the child. Only 9 months old is early to go to court if it can be avoided, that could favour the mother and education may not favour you much yet. 

 

I have written elsewhere about education as a shared responsibility. Never give away paying for education without something good in return. You get 4-3 or 5-2 and you are the primary caregiver = you decide school (as long as it is in Thailand of course). About Kindergarten and school later. Ensure that you only sign in the child, keep papers that mothers signature is not there

 

12 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Talking a reasonable amount of money to do also (60k baht). He also did say I could appeal but could take 2 or 3 costly appeals and a considerable amount of time (years) to be successful.

60k is ok. There are only 2 appeals levels in Thailand, Appeals and Supreme Court so 3 is not an option :) To write the appeal will cost (best interest of the child only), the actual court case should be the same as the first level, well worth it for the future of our child. A considerable amount of time is not true. It will be less than one year before the Appeals court starts, max another year for it to finish (I think less in this case) and more will not be needed as the mother isn't really interested in taking care of the child. Child is a year old now, another 2 years or so to get a court order that is better for the child for the next 16-17 years? Yes, that sounds like what a responsible father should aim for - if necessary. I don't think it will be if this happens in a Bangkok court actually. Keep all hospital receipts etc as evidence by the way

 

12 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

will be getting plenty of free advice from her own "farang wife" forum. Most of it usually incorrect. I would be interested to hear your comments on that?

They are the ones who though that the father had more rights than the mother until they met westerners (many poor uneducated Thai's still think that), then they changed. Many of them wake up when they get into a real court room the first time, some Thai lawyers help them to keep their dream alive.

 

Legitimisation gives you rights and responsibilities but only for the child, remember that and remind the lawyer that you know it too. 5,000 baht per month is enough in this case. The mother doesn't take care of the child and money is only for that and nothing else so how can the court motivate more? I'd just let the court order if they want more. The judges want to hear: You want the child to have a mother and you are of course happy to help her with some extra money when she actually takes care of the child

 

12 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

So at the end of the day, I don't know what extra rights I will have by going to the expense and effort of making my self the legitimate father? It could be a step towards claiming full custody but that doesn't sound likely either. Only benefit I can see is that I would have full custody and some control should something happen to her....god willing. Am I reading that right?

You must get shared custody, only question is when a good time is. Shared custody will be enough. I don't think you should see it as s step toward full/sole custody. Why do you need that? That would enable you to take the child out of Thailand without the mothers consent but that is also one reason why the judges don't want to order it. It would also take away all discussion if there are incidents with the mother / police / school etc in the future but that should be manageable anyway => You should have enough control. Don't mix up shared custody and full/sole custody, sole/full custody takes away the parental power of the mother.

 

100% shared custody means that you and the mother share all rights and obligations 100% equally, except what you accept to sign away in a court order so again: Ensure that you get something good in return for giving education away. It is very unlikely that the court would order one parent to pay education costs.

 

13 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Her biggest fear is that I will meet a new lady and my son will accept her as his mum and forget her

That would be wrong. The child has the right to her mother and the mother has the right to her child, encourage it and the child will need her mother less, encourage the mother and be happy to carry the child to her when she comes to visit and she'll worry less. She'll hardly keep up the interest anyway

 

Be patient Kenny. I don't know if you pay the mother anything now but how about formally paying her 5,000 baht per month? Transfer to her bank account or nothing, not cash. Take the first outburst about more calmly :) 

 

Good Luck

Michael

[Rc2702]

Good Luck Kenny all the best.

[Kenny202]

Without getting legitimization etc...is it possible if she was willing to get her to sign custody over to me?

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[MikeyIdea]

No,

 

There has been a Supreme Court decision on that any custody agreement between parents where father is not yet legitimised is invalid

 

You and the mother can write one after you are legitimised but it is not worth much in practice. Many officials in Thailand will simply see it as an agreement between you and the mother that means nothing for them = they will ignore it - although the law of course specify otherwise

 

Mikey