President Trump signs order to build Mexico border wall

[WaywardWind]

33 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

 

"Gaming the System" = carrying over losses from one year to the next - standard US tax-code practice.  No small business and many large business could stay in business otherwise.

 

He has already said he will donate all profits from hotel-bookings of foreign-governments to the Dept of the Treasury, so that he will not profit from - and hence be influenced by - where they stay.  His businesses are not a bunch of stock he can easily put in a blind-trust, and whoever bought them, if he did sell them, would be potentially buying influence by doing so.  It's a catch-22.  In any case, he never promised to sell all his assets, and anything remotely resembling buying influence via Trump assets will be heavily scrutinized.

 

Read his financial disclosures made at the beginning for details on his money/assets.  Tax returns reveal far less - especially the bits and pieces most candidates have traditionally released.  The people who voted for Trump did not do so to "see his taxes" - they did so to elect the only candidate, in either party, who claimed to be committed to ending both the national-suicide trade deals and the labor-flood immigration policies, which have combined to inflict severe economic-damage upon millions of US-Citizen families. 

Loss carryovers are legal; fabricating losses without the slightest shred of proof is not. It is but one example where he has skirted the law, indeed crossed over into criminal conduct, and then sett;ed the matters with hefty payments and a mandatory non-disclosure provision.

 

He promised a blind trust, then a "half blind trust" then that he would resign and hand it over to his kids, then after the election, disclosed that he would retain ownership but his kids would operate the businesses during his tenure. Do you honestly believe that he will donate the proceeds of hotel revenues gained from foreign government to the USG? Come on, nobody is that naive.

[Tawan Dok Krating Daeng]

1 hour ago, dcutman said:

Well if he was gaming the system, he was doing it legally. Just because you cant see his tax returns, I guarantee Obama had the IRS screen his tax returns screened thoroughly.

 

And evidence of your unsubstantiated allegation is where? And on what legal basis would that have happened? You must have the answers if you are 'guaranteeing' this.

[thaibeachlovers]

There are going to be a lot of people ( including some on TVF ) looking very foolish if Trump does build the wall. Just like all those morons on tv that laughed and mocked Trump when he said he was going to run for president. We all have seen the re runs of them, haven't we!

[WaywardWind]

1 hour ago, dcutman said:

Well if he was gaming the system, he was doing it legally. Just because you cant see his tax returns, I guarantee Obama had the IRS screen his tax returns screened thoroughly.

There are many examples where he engaged in illegal conduct - some with income tax returns, some with financial disclosure to obtain casino licenses, and just to show you how petty he can be, several which were designed to avoid paying NYS sales tax on high dollar purchases of jewelry, for which he came very close to being charged with a felony and only avoided it by paying a large penalty and offering to testify against others who had committed the same acts.

 

He can be extremely petty in his personal life as well. Donald's father Fred set up a special arrangement to pay for medical care for his children and grandchildren. When his father died,  Donald took over the father's business and thus was in control of the medical self-insurance arrangements. He and his brother, Fred Jr., got into a dispute over the terms of the will and Donald cut off the medical insurance coverage for Fred Jr. and his family, which included his son who had cerebral palsy and for whom the medical costs were extensive. Donald then used that leverage to force a settlement of the dispute.

 

He is a con man, a charlatan, and a thief. I find it astonishing that so many people vigorously support him without taking the time to learn a bit about his character. It's not hard - there are many stories going back 40 years on the internet, and many which have been assembled into books for decades. 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Yes - Trump has been center-left most of his life, and still far to the left - in terms of his "pro-worker" positions - than the typical Republican.  He also did some work with Jessie Jackson on minority-empowerment.

 

Politifact also claims that the higher illegal-immigration numbers which Trump and his supporters are incorrect - but they fail to cite the studies where those higher numbers come from:

http://www.capsweb.org/press-releases/illegal-aliens-estimated-20-38-million

http://www.steinreport.com/BearStearnsStudy.pdf

The latter study was prepared for investors, vs politicians.

 

If a larger total is assumed, the percentage who arrive with visas (not necessarily by air) is much lower.  I would also expect future action regarding the tracking of those who arrive on visas and fail to leave.  Also eagerly awaited is removing the ability of such persons to obtain employment without verified documentation which, combined with handouts (a form of corporate welfare which subsidizes illegal cheap labor), form the primary "magnet" elements creating the problem.

 

That will be difficult, as the capitalists that control ( IMO ) congress want cheap labour provided by illegals ( IMO ). 

[Tawan Dok Krating Daeng]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There are going to be a lot of people ( including some on TVF ) looking very foolish if Trump does build the wall. Just like all those morons on tv that laughed and mocked Trump when he said he was going to run for president. We all have seen the re runs of them, haven't we!

 

Why would anyone look foolish if Minority President Trump extends the existing fence along the US Mexico border? Quite a simple matter to put a few poles in the ground. The US government has long experience with contracting public works.

 

The foolishness and the fools will be exposed once the fence is completed and it has zero impact on immigration. The structure will have pissed off most of the rest of the World who still believe in US liberalism and diverted attention away from real measures to deal with managing immigration, legal and illegal.

 

You Right Wing lot are so easily distracted by shiny objects aren't you.

[dunroaming]

The wall is one of Trumps main objectives which is, as we all know, typical of the skewed and stupid logic that drives him on.  TIT America (This Is Trumps America).)

[optad]

45 minutes ago, DM07 said:

Everybody who celebrates this complete and utter foolishness, should have their heads checked! 

It is a comic farce. But he has the reigns. Now sacked the TPP, seemingly about the cancel and Obama agreement on a Nauru swap, all the signs are the  xenophobia will continue for one of the greatest immigrant nations. LIke firmer data on the pesos paying for this wall but no one seems to care about truth in politics any more. 

[jcsmith]

28 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Yes - Trump has been center-left most of his life, and still far to the left - in terms of his "pro-worker" positions - than the typical Republican.  He also did some work with Jessie Jackson on minority-empowerment.

 

Politifact also claims that the higher illegal-immigration numbers which Trump and his supporters are incorrect - but they fail to cite the studies where those higher numbers come from:

http://www.capsweb.org/press-releases/illegal-aliens-estimated-20-38-million

http://www.steinreport.com/BearStearnsStudy.pdf

The latter study was prepared for investors, vs politicians.

 

If a larger total is assumed, the percentage who arrive with visas (not necessarily by air) is much lower.  I would also expect future action regarding the tracking of those who arrive on visas and fail to leave.

Since there is no real way for either of us to win that argument I would only point out that you would have to assume that both those reports are accurate, and that other research numbers were based on actual counts rather than percentages. So I won't try to argue one way or the other there, I appreciate any time someone is willing to make an argument and back it up with information. 

 

With regards to Trump though my point wasn't anything based on him. Simply pointing out that simply because people who fund a site are contribute to a charity owned by the Clinton's doesn't mean that they in any way in the Clinton's pocket. Of the fact checking sites that I have visited, I've found politifact to be the most reliable, and bipartisan. They fact check everyone. Trump is often featured on there, but let's be honest Trump is about the most dishonest player in politics right now. He has a tendency to read things from irreputable sources, and then quote them as facts time and time again. I personally can't tell if he honestly is just gullible and believes all of this stuff, or if he is only pretending to do so to manipulate the people.

Edited January 26, 2017 by jcsmith

[Mr0Yallow]

9 hours ago, ezzra said:

The man is actually putting his money where is mouth is, whether anything

positive will come out of it all remain to be seen....

actually he is NOT he is putting Our, (taxpayer) money where his mouth is. 

 

[dunroaming]

18 minutes ago, jcsmith said:

I personally can't tell if he honestly is just gullible and believes all of this stuff, or if he is only pretending to do so to manipulate the people.

Either way that makes him unfit for the position he now holds.  How on earth the USA has let this happen is beyond belief.

[Mr0Yallow]

trumpalumpas wall is a joke,

first, many american landowners are complaining as great portions of land they own in the USA will be given to Mexico (without compensation) because it is too difficult, (or inconvient) to access. 

second, there is an existing wall in San Diego here are photos of the wall & how it was defeated. Yes the images are at different portions of the wall:

 

 

[rijb]

I wonder if he'll paint the fence on only one side.  Like a Thai fence.

[Baerboxer]

9 hours ago, jlwilliamsjr18 said:

A foolish and primitive endeavor...Xenophobia driven and will accomplish nothing. 

 

Ignoring any bias for and against Trump.

 

Here is a government doing something positive to stop illegal economic workers, illegal migrant families, criminals, drug traffickers, people traffickers, money launderers and very violent gang members from illegally entering a country unchecked.

 

Why do you think that is primitive and xenophobic? 

[Mr0Yallow]

8 hours ago, jackh said:

There you have it. How many "politicians" ever kept their campaign promises? You don't even 1 hand to count them.

 

In less than 1 week Trump has gone whole hog knocking out every promise he has made. THAT is the difference between politician work verses a real businessman work. Trump is the real deal dedicated to getting the USA back on track and in harmony with it's people's interests.

 

Now you all can move on and start complaining (phase 2), why the wall won't work, it costs too much, etc. Fact it, he is putting MY money into America and it is all well spent. At least it is being spent in America now. I have complete confidence in his decisions and budget spending.

555, and it is quite likely the contractors hired to build the wall will use illegal Mexican immigrants to build it, make them live in company housing, then when it is time to pay them they will have them deported just like some Halliburton contractors did during the Katrina clean-up. trumpalumpa promises? a joke. where are his tax returns? when will he divest himself of his corporations? He has never explained how he will get Mexico to pay for the wall? Mexico flatly states they will not pay for it. 

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

The wall is one of Trumps main objectives which is, as we all know, typical of the skewed and stupid logic that drives him on.  TIT America (This Is Trumps America).)

 

So how would you secure the border to prevent illegal immigrants, illegal migrant workers, drug traffickers, people traffickers, criminals and anybody who fancies from coming and going as they please?

[Mr0Yallow]

Hey I have a fantastic, GREAT Idea, the greatest idea ever... How about spending the money he will spend building a wall on ENFORCING existing laws penalizing ILLEGAL Employers? I recall there is a mandatory minimum fine of $5000 US against employers for each illegal worker found. NO excuses. 

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Mr0Yallow said:

Hey I have a fantastic, GREAT Idea, the greatest idea ever... How about spending the money he will spend building a wall on ENFORCING existing laws penalizing ILLEGAL Employers? I recall there is a mandatory minimum fine of $5000 US against employers for each illegal worker found. NO excuses. 

Oops, that would cost the Trump empire a hell of a lot of money. He won't care though, since he is not involved in his businesses anymore.

[Mr0Yallow]

9 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Ignoring any bias for and against Trump.

 

Here is a government doing something positive to stop illegal economic workers, illegal migrant families, criminals, drug traffickers, people traffickers, money launderers and very violent gang members from illegally entering a country unchecked.

 

Why do you think that is primitive and xenophobic? 

A wall will stop none of this. Actually Illegal Immigration from Mexico has dropped since the economic downturn of 2008. instead of building an expensive wall, how about enforcing existing laws against illegal employers? The real job thiefs come from India & China on H1 & H2 visas illegally. 

[Baerboxer]

Just now, Mr0Yallow said:

A wall will stop none of this. Actually Illegal Immigration from Mexico has dropped since the economic downturn of 2008. instead of building an expensive wall, how about enforcing existing laws against illegal employers? The real job thiefs come from India & China on H1 & H2 visas illegally. 

 

Having a porous border can't help. But you are right. Organizations employing illegals, or citizens paying illegals to do work should be punished in accordance with the law. And it should apply to all illegal immigrants and workers.

[Mr0Yallow]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Oops, that would cost the Trump empire a hell of a lot of money. He won't care though, since he is not involved in his businesses anymore.

Yea right, and the Pope isn't really a Catholic.

[spidermike007]

8 hours ago, teatree said:

Then every country in the world is xenophobic. 

 

I wish there were no need for borders and visas but in the real world there is.  I went to India last year and I needed a (very expensive) visa.  I don't like having to do this but I accept there is a logic and reason for it.

 

What is wrong with enforcing a border and issuing work visas as and when needed?  I'm not sure a border fence is practical given the vast distance but if it is then I just see it as common sense.

 

The EU has a land border with Morocco and has very tall fence to keep out economic migrants.  Don't remember anyone calling them out for being xenophobic:

 

Are you referring to the fence over the Mediterranean? Or the fence at the Algerian border, an honorable member of the EU? Perhaps you are referring to Western Sahara? I suggest you take geography 101. 

[Rimmer]

A post has been removed, if you wish to post on here and have your post remain up please refer to the  President of America by his correct name, thank you

[spidermike007]

This is the most ridiculous proposal from Trump. It sounded really good as sound bites, during the campaign. But, anyone who analyzes the geography, especially in the Rio Grande area, will see that it is physically impossible. I suppose there might not need to be a wall in areas where there are sheet cliffs. But, the cost of this wall is bound to be $30-50 billion. If Trump says $8 billion, just add 500%, and you will have the correct number. Here is just one interview with a conservative, Gary Jacobs, a former CEO of a Texas bank, and a congressman.

 

Richard: Mr. Jacobs and Congressman Cuellar, thanks for taking the time to discuss what has become a very polarizing issue in America today. Both of you  spent  half a century or more living in Laredo….. can you share some insights into what is happening in Washington regarding the immigration bill?

Jacobs: What the republicans are proposing is not only outlandishly expensive, from my perspective it is absolutely impossible to completely secure our border in a way envisioned by Republicans.

Richard: You are referring to the proposed extra 700 miles of proposed fencing and the extra 20,000 more border patrol agents.

Jacobs: I think the new plan calls for a double-layer fence which translates to two parallel barriers on either side of a corridor manned by Border Patrol. First, it doesn’t matter how many fences you build, how high, how thick, if people want to get in they will find a way. Second, and I can only speak to the area from El Paso to Brownsville….that is impossible to totally seal off. The physical challenges there are insurmountable. Look on a border map and explain to me how you would propose to interdict on Lake Amistad, or Falcon Lake……or Big Bend National Park which people don’t realize is over 1,250 square miles, bigger than Rhode Island and has mountains that have several thousand feet of vertical height.

Richard: You mention that illegals will find some way to circumvent the fences.

Jacobs: Yes. The ingenuity of smugglers is always steps ahead of law enforcement. Boatloads of immigrants will be bussed on boats into the Gulf of Mexico and dropped off on Padre Island. Or watch the migration flow north to the Canadian border where there are no fences and security is extremely lax compared to Texas….and there is 3,000 miles of it. Some of the 9/11 terrorists came through Canada, if you recall.

Richard: You referred in your opening statement to the cost of the fence.

Jacobs: It is impossible to pin down exactly, but there are some estimates. In a 2007 study the non-partisan Congressional Research Office pegged the bill to construct and maintain (for 25 years) a 700 mile fence to be $49 billion. This is the same type of double fences contemplated in today’s bill. That was six years ago…..materials and labor prices have increased and then there is my “law of government”……..things always take longer and cost more, usually much more, than they tell us. So what’s the cost today….you pick a number.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardfinger/2013/07/18/the-border-fence-horrible-deal-at-cost-up-to-40000-per-illegal-immigrant-apprehended/#28f19d1d5192

[i claudius]

The Romans built Hadrian's wall to keep the Scots out of England and the rest of the Roman Empire.... It failed!

Actually,at the time I did not fail,I could write reams for you but you just have to Google it,it was very effective and HD fortifications every mile with Roman garrisons,and gateways to allow access, so please check before you post[emoji4]

Sent from my ASUS_T00J using Tapatalk

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, WaywardWind said:

He is a con man, a charlatan, and a thief. I find it astonishing that so many people vigorously support him without taking the time to learn a bit about his character. It's not hard - there are many stories going back 40 years on the internet, and many which have been assembled into books for decades.

I will not address the "character" stuff - because I could go on for ages on the Clintons, Bushes, and Obama on that topic.  Books have been written about all of them - many very interesting.  I would not say I, or many who voted for him, are "vigorous supporters" - more like, "All the others have proven they will sell us out." 

 

I would add, I do not "believe" he will do what he said he would do - nor would I even if he had a flawless personal / character profile - because:

• he is now a politician
• very powerful people / entities may not give him any choice in many matters

But only Trump even "said" he would stop the bad-trade and mass-immigration - which is better than the others who pretend that  "globalization" is some sort of force of nature - rather than a system created and enabled by specific policies designed to transfer wealth from working-people to the top 0.1%.  In line with that, he did not do the typical Republican "blame the poor" routine.

 

Where I take a "defense of Trump" position is in the many areas where I see people repeating media-propagated complete and utter falsehoods to demonize him - followed by name-calling those who point out the truth, calling them trolls, etc.  I am not referring to you personally, WaywardWind, but in the general atmosphere. 

 

Once a figure is labeled as "fascist," facts don't matter, and there are no rules for civil-discourse.  Any action taken against a person trying to voice the truth is deemed "justified" to prevent some terrible catastrophe.  The next step is violence.  In the 1980s, I was worried about this type of push by the religious-right, but they now seem like reasonable folks, by comparison, and many of their "ominous warnings" about the intolerance of the "left" (which I laughed about at the time) have come true.

[simple1]

11 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Are you referring to the fence over the Mediterranean? Or the fence at the Algerian border, an honorable member of the EU? Perhaps you are referring to Western Sahara? I suggest you take geography 101. 

I've been there, so you're incorrect. Poster was probably referring to the Spanish Meleilla Fence separating the Spanish enclave in Africa from Morocco.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla_border_fence

[rudi49jr]

Even the border patrol chief called it a ridiculous plan and impossible to build, but of course Trump knows better!

[rijb]

Just now, rudi49jr said:

Even the border patrol chief called it a ridiculous plan and impossible to build, but of course Trump knows better!

 

How many hotels and casinos has the border patrol chief built?

[WaywardWind]

28 minutes ago, rijb said:

 

How many hotels and casinos has the border patrol chief built?

And how much does Trump know about the border?  Has he even ever been there?

 

The border is 1,974 miles long, about 650 of which have already been fenced.  That leaves a little over 1,300 miles of wall to be built.  Best estimates range from $15 billion to $25 billion cost of materials for a 10 foot high wall or double fence - not including labor, cost of land acquisition, ongoing maintenance, and based on reasonably accessible land and building conditions, which doesn't exist for much of the remaining land. This thing could easily run over $75 billion dollars and take a decade to complete.

 

It would represent the largest single engineering project in US history, dwarfing such feats as the Hoover Dam, which cost $750 million in 2016 dollars.

 

There is flat out no way that such an amount can be squeezed out of the US budget, no matter how hard they cut elsewhere.