Phantom/boss engine mood

[themorn2112]

Greetings

Can a phantom/boss thumper engine carburetor be substituted with a fuel injector intake?

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[Kwasaki]

Not really from a practical view point best left alone.
For want of better words the fuel plumbing is not the same,  there's an ECU computer device in later bikes to handle fuel injection. 

Maybe you could get it done, Yeah but you'd probably spend less just buying a newer bike.

 

Maybe could get a nitro kit fitted.  

Edited January 28, 2017 by Kwasaki

[canthai55]

^^^^ Wise words. You would need an appropriate fuel tank, in-tank fuel pump, hi pressure fuel lines, throttle body, ECU, all the sensors that tell the ECU what to do - and find some way to mount them. Then a fuel controller to adjust the fuel curve - on a dyno of course as the ECU was not made for that engine and air flow requirements and you would need a wide band O2 sensor to tell what is what. Like the old question - 'How fast can I go ? ' Answer - 'How much $$$ do you have'

[themorn2112]

Thanks for the responses all. I seem to have found what I was looking for... 

 

http://www.ecotrons.com/products/small_engine_fuel_injection_kit/ 

 

It seems that (@ least for this kit) Accommodations have been addressed regarding the necessary hardware and sw calibrations if I was to take the plunge in the name of ease of maintenance and extending the life of my potential "investment". 

Edited January 28, 2017 by themorn2112
Additional commentary added.

[themorn2112]

2 hours ago, canthai55 said:

^^^^ Wise words. You would need an appropriate fuel tank, in-tank fuel pump, hi pressure fuel lines, throttle body, ECU, all the sensors that tell the ECU what to do - and find some way to mount them. Then a fuel controller to adjust the fuel curve - on a dyno of course as the ECU was not made for that engine and air flow requirements and you would need a wide band O2 sensor to tell what is what. Like the old question - 'How fast can I go ? ' Answer - 'How much $$$ do you have'

The majority of the issues you mentioned are addressed as far as fuel flow goes is addressed by the bolt on ECU and the installation of the included throttle body. your comment seems to be based on the assumption that I am planning on racing my future machine. All i am looking for is a Fuel injection system to ease maintenance and possibly make fuel consumption more efficient. This is not much different than installing an electronic voltage control regulator on my '53 chrysler many moons ago. The challenge for my Chrysler was that the electronics was based on a 6 volt "Positive" Ground. I enjoy the challenge of updating collectors items and memories, as well as preserving something that maybe of value in time (at the very least preserving a memory). That may well be worth the investment. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by themorn2112
Spelling and additional information included.

[canthai55]

The ECU gets info from various sensors - crankshaft position, MAF or older MAP, etc. Given any thought to where you will install them on your Phantom/Boss - which lack the toothed wheel that the CPS reads ? As well as the high pressure fuel pump in the fuel tank which is required - gravity won't cut it. . All EFI runs the same, from a grocery getter to a Ferrari. Not in the same league as a voltage regulator. But fill your boots. Good luck.

[themorn2112]

3 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

The ECU gets info from various sensors - crankshaft position, MAF or older MAP, etc. Given any thought to where you will install them on your Phantom/Boss - which lack the toothed wheel that the CPS reads ? As well as the high pressure fuel pump in the fuel tank which is required - gravity won't cut it. . All EFI runs the same, from a grocery getter to a Ferrari. Not in the same league as a voltage regulator. But fill your boots. Good luck.

I heard similar talk when I converted my chrysler from a contact point based ignition system to electronic ignition using the existing positive ground. I will learn and adapt the system as needed. winning a lottery is slim, your chances are zero if you don't play at all. thank you for the luck. 

[themorn2112]

Here is a you Tube vid with a walk around of a thumper with an EFI conversion; 

 

 

this doesn't look to be the daunting endeavour that the previous posters seem to be insinuating (especially dealing with what seems to be a "single" port throttle body injector). I had a more difficult time installing my Distributor in my Chrysler (substituting my magnetic pickup sensors for the mechanical gearing, which were internal to my Distributor). As a former electronic tech, mapping the fuel/air ratios should not be that big of an issue (keeping in mind that apparently the basic air/fuel profile seems to already have an initial mapping profile installed. Bottom line guys is that I am looking to potentially upgrade a "cruiser" for a leisurely ride and city commuting, not racing and/or competing. With that in mind your responses were greatly appreciated. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by themorn2112
Additional details added.

[Richard-BKK]

The truth is that buying a Honda Phantom 200 and upgrading it with a Electronic Fuel Injection system will cost more than buying a new 250cc V-twin cruiser motorcycle standard equipped with fuel-injection.

 

A good quality Honda Phantom TA200 will be around 50,000 THB, even if you find a cheap 25,000 THB bike, you probably need to fix a few items namely the rear shocks, tires, and sprockets and chain… which still makes 50,000 THB. Most aftermarket fuel-injection kits that actually work are not cheap, they can cost as high as 23,000 THB (with shipping and import duty).

 

Another point is that most aftermarket fuel-injection kits are for automatic (CVT) scooters, this are often not suitable for non-automatic motorcycles. This has to do with engine braking and creating a extreme-lean fuel/air-mixture in the combustion chamber when you close the throttle.

 

Anyway a new 250cc V-twin motorcycle cost around 80,000 to 90,000 THB and comes with 2 or 3-years warranty (depending on the brand you select)

[themorn2112]

Richard-BKK all are good points (aside from the lean fuel/air argument which would be addressed by the detected engine rpm sensor and potentially compensated for by the mapped air flow profile; I certainly wouldn't put money on an ECU that couldn't detect and adjust for those changes).

I would also take on this challenge for nostalgic purposes (I.e. My first bike in Thailand). For some people those are memories worth keeping and preserving (like my grandmother's Electra 225 Limited; aka the deuce & a quarter). For me some challenges are with the extra coin, so for now I am looking at a "feasibility study" ("outer limits" episode reference for those that remember).

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[thaiguzzi]

On 28/01/2017 at 5:28 PM, canthai55 said:

The ECU gets info from various sensors - crankshaft position, MAF or older MAP, etc. Given any thought to where you will install them on your Phantom/Boss - which lack the toothed wheel that the CPS reads ? As well as the high pressure fuel pump in the fuel tank which is required - gravity won't cut it. . All EFI runs the same, from a grocery getter to a Ferrari. Not in the same league as a voltage regulator. But fill your boots. Good luck.

+1.

What he said.

What's the point???  A carb will be fine. A carb will be reliable. I've been a motorcycle mechanic and machinist all my life. Why complicate things? Why not keep it simple. ShIt, i'm always looking at going the other way, buying a modern FI bike and converting it back to carbs.You got a lap top and dyno to tune in FI? Thought not. Are there maps out there for Boss/Phantom (cough) motors. Thought not. Jeez, you create a thread looking to buy a small girlie/learner motorcycle for not a lot of bucks, and then want to spend half as much again converting something that works to FI. Why?

 Oh, and converting old cars and bikes from points ignition to electronic ignition is easy peasy, and not EVEN IN THE SAME BALL PARK.

... End of rant...

[themorn2112]

8 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

+1.

What he said.

What's the point???  A carb will be fine. A carb will be reliable. I've been a motorcycle mechanic and machinist all my life. Why complicate things? Why not keep it simple. ShIt, i'm always looking at going the other way, buying a modern FI bike and converting it back to carbs.You got a lap top and dyno to tune in FI? Thought not. Are there maps out there for Boss/Phantom (cough) motors. Thought not. Jeez, you create a thread looking to buy a small girlie/learner motorcycle for not a lot of bucks, and then want to spend half as much again converting something that works to FI. Why?

 Oh, and converting old cars and bikes from points ignition to electronic ignition is easy peasy, and not EVEN IN THE SAME BALL PARK.

... End of rant...

Easy until you have to compensate for a rich fuel mixture for higher elevations (have you ever been to Denver)?  BTW, talk to me when you can isolate circuits to compensate for floating grounds for a positive return line, as well as creating a voltage divider network to compensate for those grounds. and yes, I use an Asus T100TA Tablet (running a full version of windows 10) with Vag-com software to map air/fuel mixtures. think much, thought not (try waiting for an answer before jumping to conclusions)? I will freely ride a pink bike with flowers on it, if it can do the job of getting me from point A to B.  People who tend to rant, don't tend to think much, which keeps the mind small and narrow. Try to get off that (likely) alcohol induced rant of yours. 

...end of reasoned response...

Edited January 30, 2017 by themorn2112

[themorn2112]

8 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

+1.

What he said.

What's the point???  A carb will be fine. A carb will be reliable. I've been a motorcycle mechanic and machinist all my life. Why complicate things? Why not keep it simple. ShIt, i'm always looking at going the other way, buying a modern FI bike and converting it back to carbs.You got a lap top and dyno to tune in FI? Thought not. Are there maps out there for Boss/Phantom (cough) motors. Thought not. Jeez, you create a thread looking to buy a small girlie/learner motorcycle for not a lot of bucks, and then want to spend half as much again converting something that works to FI. Why?

 Oh, and converting old cars and bikes from points ignition to electronic ignition is easy peasy, and not EVEN IN THE SAME BALL PARK.

... End of rant...

Easy until you have to compensate for a rich fuel mixture for higher elevations (have you ever been to Denver)?  BTW, talk to me when you can isolate circuits to compensate for floating grounds for a positive return line, as well as creating a voltage divider network to compensate for those grounds. and yes, I use an Asus T100TA Tablet (running a full version of windows 10) with Vag-com software to map air/fuel mixtures. think much, thought not (try waiting for an answer before jumping to conclusions)? I will freely ride a pink bike with flowers on it, if it can do the job of getting me from point A to B.  People who tend to rant, don't tend to think much, which keeps the mind small and narrow. Try to get off that (likely) alcohol induced rant of yours. 

[canthai55]

Another one - comes on a Forum, asks for advice, receives it - belittles the person who took the time to post. Your post illustrates your complete lack of understanding of the principals of EFI - indeed the original question is ludicrous. Discussing electrical principals - which EFI has, no doubt - but ignoring the mechanicals is a clear indication this. Enjoy ! And at the end, see a good doctor to relieve the swelling caused by beating your head against the wall. And a shrink to discuss ways to communicate without insulting others. AH

Edited January 30, 2017 by canthai55

[themorn2112]

Amazing that someone insult the persons defending himself against a prosecutor, then the persecuted being called a prosecutor. Then to top it off, you suggest I see a shrink because I didn't roll over and take my beating? Sorry to cause trouble in your universe.

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[thaiguzzi]

(likely) alcohol... yawn... Whatever matey... you know best...

Ever tried to trouble shoot modern motorcycle FI without the correct diagnostics tool? Which sensor has failed without the factory service diagnostics telling you which one to replace? Or the shop (virtually never) having ALL sensors in stock to try eliminate by substitution?

Single cylinder air cooled motor + carb = there is nothing more simple. The ONLY reason FI is fitted to a lot of certain types of motorcycles is the EPA and EMISSIONS. Nothing else.

You carry on Mr. Electronics Expert. You want cheap, you want reliable, you want FI. Buy a new Wave and have 10k spare change. It'll do all you ask of it.

[themorn2112]

I don't, that's why I am here. I am not talking about upgrading a new machine. I am referring to an older machine that probably doesn't need so many sensors because it is built to run with mechanical components. The best way to learn is to question, but my questions were taken as belittling and insults. The best teachers are the ones who answer questions and not give in to their egos. I challenge you to tell me what part of my initial response is considered as belittling?

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[themorn2112]

Also, can those carburetors compensate for major atmospheric pressure changes (like, maybe, Chiang Mai to Bangkok or Phuket, or in my example Denver to death valley)? Odds are if carb does run between those atmospheric differences, the engine will run like garbage. In my case I have a tablet running a full version of Windows 10 (running in backwards compatibility mode, potentially connected to the ECU via usb, or parallel port for older units). Doing this on a phantom or boss would be a great exercise to pass the time between studies/work in CM, as well as the added benefit of a better running machine via a more efficient fuel delivery system.

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[canthai55]

15 hours ago, themorn2112 said:

 Try to get off that (likely) alcohol induced rant of yours. 

 

Insults started by you. You ask for advice - it was given. I could give a Flying F what you do. GFY

[themorn2112]

Insults started by you. You ask for advice - it was given. I could give a Flying F what you do. GFY

Why do you continue to respond? Must have touched a nerve. I wish you well and much happiness.

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[canthai55]

8 minutes ago, themorn2112 said:

Also, can those carburetors compensate for major atmospheric pressure changes (like, maybe, Chiang Mai to Bangkok or Phuket,

CNX 300 meters ASL. Phuket at sea level. Maybe do some research before you post garbage. Rode my Dyna all over - Udon Thani to Singapore, up Doi Inthanon - 2565 meters - no issues. You describe yourself as being from Chicago. Explanation right there.

[themorn2112]

CNX 300 meters ASL. Phuket at sea level. Maybe do some research before you post garbage. Rode my Dyna all over - Udon Thani to Singapore, up Doi Inthanon - 2565 meters - no issues. You describe yourself as being from Chicago. Explanation right there.

Yes, living in Chicago. Thank you for you insight. Wish I could get more info like that from posters without bruised egos. Denver to death valley - 1781 meters. Carbureted cars here run like crap and need frequent adjustments for running rich in Denver, and lean in death valley. A mapped air/fuel profile compensates for those pressure changes w/o outside manual adjustments. Once again, thank you for you insight.

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[themorn2112]

This is why I asked about modding a phantom with fuel injection:

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/adjusting-jetting-carbs-for-wide-range-of-altitudes-and-temps.660641/

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[Kwasaki]

6 minutes ago, themorn2112 said:

This is why I asked about modding a phantom with fuel injection:

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/adjusting-jetting-carbs-for-wide-range-of-altitudes-and-temps.660641/

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If you had already decided what you wanted and intended to do it why ask the question.

 

You won't make friends here when you have already had your answer then question peoples perfectly normal reaction to something that's not really practical and quite frankly a daft idea..

 

 You lost me when you asked this:-  " Also, can those carburetors compensate for major atmospheric pressure changes like, maybe, Chiang-Mai to Bangkok or Phuket ",.   

[themorn2112]

Because I try not to half ass it when I seek answers. I approach it from as many angles as possible. Like in the matrix move quote to neo "you already made your decision, now you want to know why". Unfortunately posters here feel that their egos are bruised and are offended when they are asked "why" in regards to their answer. Sorry for your loss. I wish you well and much happiness.

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[Kwasaki]

17 hours ago, themorn2112 said:

 i am looking for a bike that is fairly reliable, based on a budget under 50k Baht. I have my choices down to the Honda Phantom, or Kawasaki Boss. 
 

This sounds a bit half ass when seeking an answer if you ask me.

[themorn2112]

This sounds a bit half ass when seeking an answer if you ask me.

Nice retort. Really knocks me down a notch. I bow to your superior wisdom in the universe of your imagination [emoji6]

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[thaiguzzi]

18 hours ago, themorn2112 said:

Also, can those carburetors compensate for major atmospheric pressure changes (like, maybe, Chiang Mai to Bangkok or Phuket, or in my example Denver to death valley)? Odds are if carb does run between those atmospheric differences, the engine will run like garbage. In my case I have a tablet running a full version of Windows 10 (running in backwards compatibility mode, potentially connected to the ECU via usb, or parallel port for older units). Doing this on a phantom or boss would be a great exercise to pass the time between studies/work in CM, as well as the added benefit of a better running machine via a more efficient fuel delivery system.

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Hilarious - "ap changes" CM  to BKK to PHKT. "Engine will run like garbage". Absolutely hilarious. On an air cooled single which probably does'nt even make 20 bhp...

In the 90's we did Euro runs every year, a bunch of close mates, min 6, max 9 bikes, 10 -12 days, from pretty much sea level from our home base near the coast in the UK, thru the Alps (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy), down to southern Italy by the coast. The Alps every year. That's a few thousand kms from 30m above sea level to 3000m above sea level, back down to zero.

All bikes were air cooled old skool, Evo Harleys, one Norton, Triumphs, Guzzis, even a couple of iron head Sportsters. Some had electronic ignition, some had points and condensers, a couple,  fixed ignition (no a/a) magneto.

All had carbs.

None had FI.

None had problems with "ap changes". None  "ran like garbage"....

And all of them always got us home.

[themorn2112]

I notice your sense of observation is supreme in your universe as well. I explained my experiences with carb adjustments based on my experiences here in the states and wondered about similar situations in LOS. The example I cited were for the carbureted vehicles here in the states. How did you make the correlation that was making assertions about thumpers in LOS based on my experience here? I also made no comment about thumpers in my example. I will be the first to state that I have no knowledge of thumpers (hence my question posted on this forum). When I question the answer I receive I get the "knee jerk, bruised ego reaction" a straight "I don't know but that's how I do it" is a perfectly reasonable answer, but that may be asking too much here. It would be nice if I got a straight explanation behind the answers I received. Best wishes...

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[themorn2112]

10 minutes ago, themorn2112 said:

I notice your sense of observation is supreme in your universe as well. I explained my experiences with carb adjustments based on my experiences here in the states and wondered about similar situations in LOS. The example I cited were for the carbureted vehicles here in the states. How did you make the correlation that was making assertions about thumpers in LOS based on my experience here? I also made no comment about thumpers in my example. I will be the first to state that I have no knowledge of thumpers (hence my question posted on this forum). When I question the answer I receive I get the "knee jerk, bruised ego reaction" a straight "I don't know but that's how I do it" is a perfectly reasonable answer, but that may be asking too much here. It would be nice if I got a straight explanation behind the answers I received. Best wishes...

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