Trump immigrant curbs cause chaos, panic, anger worldwide

[Fookhaht]

You may not like his words and his actions.
But "mentally ill" ?

Typical Jingthing drama. Over-the-top.


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[jcsmith]

1 hour ago, sweatalot said:

First: The time when the US needed immigration is over. Having been an immigration coutry does not mean it has to remain that

Second: Freedom of religon for a religion that wants to eradicate all other religons and is known for the most violent present religon?

Third: Countries have the right of self defense and the duty to protect their people, don't they?

1) Considering all Americans other than the Native Americans/American Indians are immigrants. That was the American Dream until Trump. What gives him the right to change that? You do realize that many of the best technical minds, and scientists in America are immigrants? That without immigrants we would have never been the first to the moon?

2) Christian Extremists have used the word of the bible to do the same. They destroyed unrecoverable artifacts of the past, they eradicated others on the basis of it. You can't judge an entire religion by its most radical elements. Like I've said before if you do that then you have to judge Christianity based on the whackos blowing up abortion clinics.

3) Sure, but again you are completely missing the point. Less than 1% of the murders in America in the past 15 years have been as a result of muslim terrorism. Radical right wing groups have murdered more in that same time frame. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by jcsmith

[Savilesghost]

1 minute ago, jcsmith said:

1) Considering all Americans other than the Native Americans/American Indians are immigrants. That was the American Dream until Trump. What gives him the right to say decide that? You do realize that many of the best technical minds, and scientists in America are immigrants? That without immigrants we would have never been the first to the moon?

2) Christian Extremists have used the word of the bible to do the same. They destroyed unrecoverable artifacts of the past, they eradicated others on the basis of it. You can't judge an entire religion by its most radical elements. Like I've said before if you do that then you have to judge Christianity based on the whackos blowing up abortion clinics.

3) Sure, but again you are completely missing the point. Less than 1% of the murders in America in the past 15 years have been as a result of muslim terrorism. Radical right wing groups have murdered more in that same time frame. 

His excellency Donald J Trump, President and Commander in Chief of the United States of America disagrees with you

[CWMcMurray]

A visa is no gurantee you will be allowed into any country,  
PR although having unhindered right of abode, can have that right removed if conditions warrant it and thats a fact not just in the US 
 
As regards your example, a bit confused, i stand to be corrected a green card confers employment rights and one doesnt need a visa if one has a green card,
 
so there seems to be some technical inaccuracies in the example,
 
further US authorites are perfectly with in their rights to deny entry to non citizens if the circumstances warrant it..in this case the persons concerned are not citizens
 
This is the same in many countries not just the US  

Yes a green card is a valid visa that also allows to work.

Also sure it is true that a visa does not guarantee entry...

But if having a valid visa or green card it makes sense that they should only be denied if there is good reason to deny them ..

for example if it is found they lied on the application and this comes to light, or their situation has changed in some way that they no longer qualify for a visa or it is found they committed some crime or mis deed

What is not reasonable is to go to sleep with a valid green card or visa and then wake up in the morning and finding out you can't go back to your home of residence and your job due to no fault or misdeed of your own

I'm. It sure if you are living and working in Thailand, but many here are..

What if you have a job and a valid work permit and visa in Thailand.. found out your father was sick and fly back home to visit him in the hospital

Then fly back to Thailand and are told at the airport.. sorry you are banned from entering Thailand even though you have a valid visa and did nothing wrong

That your family is in Thailand.. so what... that you have a job in Thailand .. so what ...that everything you own is in Thailand, except what is in your suitcase.. so what...

You whole life is just destroyed , even though you have done everything correctly and have all the visa and work permits needed

Just because some one has the power to do something , doesn't mean it is correct for them
To do it...


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[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, sweatalot said:

You may not like his words and his actions.

But "mentally ill" ?

More on that ...

Quote

As his presidential campaign trundles forward, millions of sane Americans are wondering: What exactly is wrong with this strange individual? Now, we have an answer.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/donald-trump-narcissism-therapists

 

[Savilesghost]

6 minutes ago, CWMcMurray said:

 

 

Yes a green card is a valid visa that also allows to work.

Also sure it is true that a visa does not guarantee entry...

But if having a valid visa or green card it makes sense that they should only be denied if there is good reason to deny them ..

for example if it is found they lied on the application and this comes to light, or their situation has changed in some way that they no longer qualify for a visa or it is found they committed some crime or mis deed

What is not reasonable is to go to sleep with a valid green card or visa and then wake up in the morning and finding out you can't go back to your home of residence and your job due to no fault or misdeed of your own

I'm. It sure if you are living and working in Thailand, but many here are..

What if you have a job and a valid work permit and visa in Thailand.. found out your father was sick and fly back home to visit him in the hospital

Then fly back to Thailand and are told at the airport.. sorry you are banned from entering Thailand even though you have a valid visa and did nothing wrong

That your family is in Thailand.. so what... that you have a job in Thailand .. so what ...that everything you own is in Thailand, except what is in your suitcase.. so what...

You whole life is just destroyed , even though you have done everything correctly and have all the visa and work permits needed

Just because some one has the power to do something , doesn't mean it is correct for them
To do it...


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And i am sure once the gentlemen has been revetted he will be allowed back into the US to continue work

 

My comments were intended to address the legal and technical aspects, not the moral ones

 

And what happens if this guy is revetted and something turns up ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Savilesghost

[CWMcMurray]

Have not seen anything mentioned in the executive order that allows for the re-vetting just a ban..

Also why not re-vet him at the airport and then release?

Or revise the visa process and instruct all
Visa holders to provide additional information needed for
Re-vetting within a certain time frame or they will be black listed

There are many ways that re-vetting can be done if needed but a straight ban on everyone with valid visas and green cards is not a good way to do it

I have backed Trump in other posts and have pushed all to give him a chance..

But no one is perfect and if some one is wrong, we need to hold them accountable

On this , I think he is dead wrong to be banning those with valid visas and green cards or duel citizenship from entering the US

Do you really think this is a good thing and the best and fairest way to proceed?

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[Savilesghost]

5 minutes ago, CWMcMurray said:

Have not seen anything mentioned in the executive order that allows for the re-vetting just a ban..

Also why not re-vet him at the airport and then release?

Or revise the visa process and instruct all
Visa holders to provide additional information needed for
Re-vetting within a certain time frame or they will be black listed

There are many ways that re-vetting can be done if needed but a straight ban on everyone with valid visas and green cards is not a good way to do it

I have backed Trump in other posts and have pushed all to give him a chance..

But no one is perfect and if some one is wrong, we need to hold them accountable

On this , I think he is dead wrong to be banning those with valid visas and green cards or duel citizenship from entering the US

Do you really think this is a good thing and the best and fairest way to proceed?

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I think until they figure out what exactly they are dealing with its the only sensible measure and one can only hope Europe and the UK take inspiration from Donald Trump leadership and grow some nads and do exactly the same 

[Andaman Al]

47 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

That remains to be seen, but at the very least at the moment he is keeping his election promises, which is very unusual for a politian, so that counts for something 

He is keeping no promises. he is running with his populace strategy. He is feeding the mob what they want to be fed. He is just signing executive orders, all of which MUST be approved by congress and the Senate.

 

One of the first executive orders Obama signed was to close Guantanamo Bay. That did not do him much good. It was an order rejected by congress. Then when Guantanamo was not closed as Obama promised, you all blamed Obama.

[mogandave]

5 minutes ago, CWMcMurray said:

Have not seen anything mentioned in the executive order that allows for the re-vetting just a ban..

Also why not re-vet him at the airport and then release?

Or revise the visa process and instruct all
Visa holders to provide additional information needed for
Re-vetting within a certain time frame or they will be black listed

There are many ways that re-vetting can be done if needed but a straight ban on everyone with valid visas and green cards is not a good way to do it


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"...a straight ban on everyone with valid visas and green cards..." 

 

Where did you read that? 

 

Re-vet people people at the airport? How?

 

My understand is that the bigger problem is a total lack of effective means of vetting. Vetting at the airport would be like washing your pecker after unprotect sex, it might make you feel better, and the odds you're going to die from having unprotected sex once is quite small, but at then end of the day, it's pointless.

 

 

[Savilesghost]

1 minute ago, Andaman Al said:

He is keeping no promises. he is running with his populace strategy. He is feeding the mob what they want to be fed. He is just signing executive orders, all of which MUST be approved by congress and the Senate.

 

One of the first executive orders Obama signed was to close Guantanamo Bay. That did not do him much good. It was an order rejected by congress. Then when Guantanamo was not closed as Obama promised, you all blamed Obama.

All Politians get elected into office using populist stratgies and feeding the mob...so maybe a bit less of lastest newspeak term "populist" and the inferrence its something new or bad....

[mogandave]

4 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

He is keeping no promises. he is running with his populace strategy. He is feeding the mob what they want to be fed. He is just signing executive orders, all of which MUST be approved by congress and the Senate.

 

One of the first executive orders Obama signed was to close Guantanamo Bay. That did not do him much good. It was an order rejected by congress. Then when Guantanamo was not closed as Obama promised, you all blamed Obama.

 

I do not know anyone that blames President Obama for gitmo not being closed. I think he did all he could. 

 

 

[stevenl]

His excellency Donald J Trump, President and Commander in Chief of the United States of America disagrees with you

And a federal judge disagrees with Trump.

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[mogandave]

Just now, stevenl said:

And a federal judge disagrees with Trump.

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As does every other lefty in the country, I'm shocked

[Savilesghost]

Just now, stevenl said:

And a federal judge disagrees with Trump.

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The beauty of democracy, the liberal social  marxists wish to over turn 

[Andaman Al]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

And a federal judge disagrees with Trump.

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Somehow I don't think it will be the last time a Federal Judge disagrees with Trump. In Fact I think there will be quite a few talking to him in the near future in a professional capacity.

[CWMcMurray]

 

As does every other lefty in the country, I'm shocked

Along with a lot of moderates and even some republicans...

There are much better ways to solve the problem... I still believe a total ban is not the best solution

1) Rep. Charlie Dent (R-PA)

Dent, whose district has one of the largest Syrian refugee populations in the country, called on Trump to halt the immigration order on Saturday afternoon, telling the New York Times: “I urge the administration to halt enforcement of this order until a more thoughtful and deliberate policy can be instated.”

2) Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ)

Flake singled out the fact that Trump’s order was so broad that up to 500,000 green-card holders — permanent residents of the United States — could be barred from returning to America if they went abroad:

3) Sen. Ben Sasse (R-NE)

Sasse, a Trump critic throughout the campaign, issued a statement criticizing the order as “too broad” — and expressed worry that it sent the dangerous message that “the US sees all Muslims as jihadis”:

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[kowpot]

50 minutes ago, CWMcMurray said:

 

 

Yes a green card is a valid visa that also allows to work.

Also sure it is true that a visa does not guarantee entry...

But if having a valid visa or green card it makes sense that they should only be denied if there is good reason to deny them ..

for example if it is found they lied on the application and this comes to light, or their situation has changed in some way that they no longer qualify for a visa or it is found they committed some crime or mis deed

What is not reasonable is to go to sleep with a valid green card or visa and then wake up in the morning and finding out you can't go back to your home of residence and your job due to no fault or misdeed of your own

I'm. It sure if you are living and working in Thailand, but many here are..

What if you have a job and a valid work permit and visa in Thailand.. found out your father was sick and fly back home to visit him in the hospital

Then fly back to Thailand and are told at the airport.. sorry you are banned from entering Thailand even though you have a valid visa and did nothing wrong

That your family is in Thailand.. so what... that you have a job in Thailand .. so what ...that everything you own is in Thailand, except what is in your suitcase.. so what...

You whole life is just destroyed , even though you have done everything correctly and have all the visa and work permits needed

Just because some one has the power to do something , doesn't mean it is correct for them
To do it...


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A green card is not a visa. If you have ever had a green card then you would know that in fact you are not guaranteed anything. You can be denied re-entry into the United States.  It may be revoked for any number of reasons. Yes, you have a right of appeal. But, that does not change the fact that having a green card does not give you the same rights as a U.S. citizen.

[kowpot]

20 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

Somehow I don't think it will be the last time a Federal Judge disagrees with Trump. In Fact I think there will be quite a few talking to him in the near future in a professional capacity.

This is the problem. Judges trying to legislate from the bench. This will be the next thing Trump will go after with his appointees to the Supreme Court.

[CWMcMurray]

Here's a couple more..

Guessing the list will continue to grow


Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME) also criticized the new policy, telling the Maine-Sun Journal that it was "overly broad" and could hurt Iraqis who worked with American forces as translators and bodyguards.


Rep. Justin Amash (R-MI) also criticized the order, saying that "it's not lawful to ban immigrants on basis of nationality." He also warned that the order undermines the U.S. Constitution.

How about his VP's earlier comments on this issue during campaign...

On Twitter, meanwhile, tens of thousands of people retweeted an old statement by Trump's vice president, Mike Pence, who in his former role as Governor of Indiana proclaimed in December 2015 that "calls to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. are offensive and unconstitutional."


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[CWMcMurray]

The Cato institute , which is very conservative ...


“Foreigners from those seven nations have killed zero Americans in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1975 and the end of 2015,” Alex Nowrasteh, an immigration policy analyst at the libertarian Cato Institute, wrote on the group’s website.

Even Many Christian evangelicals are against this...

The announcement was met with immediate backlash from leaders of nearly every Christian denomination, along with those of other faiths. They argue that Trump’s actions do not reflect the teachings of the Bible, nor the traditions of the United States, and they have urged the president to let them get back to work—many of the country’s most prominent refugee resettlement organizations are faith-based.


Some examples..


“Christ calls us to care for everyone, regardless of who they are and where they come from,” said Jenny Yang, the senior vice president of advocacy and policy at World Relief, the arm of the National Association of Evangelicals that provides refugee and immigration resettlement services. “That has to be a core part of our witness—not just caring for our own, but caring for others as well.”


The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, the official body of the Church in America, also declared that it “strongly opposes” Trump’s executive orders. “We believe in assisting all those who are vulnerable and fleeing persecution, regardless of their religion,” said Bishop Joe Vásquez of Austin, Texas, in a statement. “This includes Christians, as well as Yazidis and Shia Muslims from Syria, Rohingyas from Burma, and other religious minorities. However, we need to protect all our brothers and sisters of all faiths, including Muslims.”

During his homily at a pro-life prayer vigil on Thursday, New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan said something similar, as I wrote on Friday: “Refugees and immigrants continue to believe that this nation is still a sanctuary, as they arrive with relief and thanksgiving,” he said. “We pray they are never let down!”

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[CWMcMurray]

This is the problem. Judges trying to legislate from the bench. This will be the next thing Trump will go after with his appointees to the Supreme Court.

Don't be so sure... conservative judges slapped down Obama for over reaching with Executive orders why wouldn't they do the same to Trump

Their are limits to what a president should be able
To do with Executive orders

If wanting to go further than what is reasonable, it needs to be voted on in congress and laws changed


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[mogandave]

5 minutes ago, CWMcMurray said:

The Cato institute , which is very conservative ...


“Foreigners from those seven nations have killed zero Americans in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1975 and the end of 2015,” Alex Nowrasteh, an immigration policy analyst at the libertarian Cato Institute, wrote on the group’s website.

Even Many Christian evangelicals are against this...

The announcement was met with immediate backlash from leaders of nearly every Christian denomination, along with those of other faiths. They argue that Trump’s actions do not reflect the teachings of the Bible, nor the traditions of the United States, and they have urged the president to let them get back to work—many of the country’s most prominent refugee resettlement organizations are faith-based.



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It's nice that we are starting to care what Christians think again.

 

What is the vetting process, any idea?

 

I have not had my car stolen since 2001, but I still lock it. 

[mogandave]

32 minutes ago, CWMcMurray said:

Along with a lot of moderates and even some republicans...

 

 

So there are not moderate Republicans? Telling.

[CWMcMurray]

Some more conservatives...


Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), wasn’t alone in its outrage. Awad was also flanked by Muslim, Jewish, and Christian leaders, including Rev. Steve Martin, communications director for the National Council of Christians—one of the largest coalitions of Christian churches in the country.
“I’ve been away of the rising tide of Islamophobia for a number of years,” he said, his voice rising. “I can’t even believe that things are getting as bad as they are—that state sponsored persecution of a class of people is happening.”
“We explicitly condemn any religious test for refugees,” he added.


People of faith, this is the moment we are called to,” Sister Simone Campbell, head of Catholic social justice lobby NETWORK, told the crowd. “This is our time to stand up for those who are struggling.”

Below is a list of faith groups and leaders condemning the order.

Alliance of Baptists
American Jewish World Service
Auburn Seminary
Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty
Bend the Arc
Catholic Relief Services
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Church of the Brethren
Church World Service

+ 29 more religious organizations and tons of religious leaders..

Need to put a link, as to many to copy and paste

https://thinkprogress.org/faith-groups-country-immigrants-muslim-b22798233c90#.d2xgp0yob

Wrong is wrong .. this is not a left/ right issue


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[Richard W]

1 hour ago, Savilesghost said:

So more alternative truths told by the MSM then ?  as your quite correct green card holders are not US citzens, and therefore the phrase dual citizens in their case is not true either, they are not dual citizens, they are citizens of 1 country with Permanent residence in the US

No, they're US residents with 2 non-US nationalities, e.g. British and Iranian.  There's a report that Canadian citizens with Iranian nationality are exempt from the ban.

[CWMcMurray]

"...a straight ban on everyone with valid visas and green cards..." 

 

Where did you read that? 

 

Re-vet people people at the airport? How?

 

My understand is that the bigger problem is a total lack of effective means of vetting. Vetting at the airport would be like washing your pecker after unprotect sex, it might make you feel better, and the odds you're going to die from having unprotected sex once is quite small, but at then end of the day, it's pointless.

 

 

Have put a link for below on fox news, so you will know it is not some 'liberal lie'

The ban is not just on refugees but all those with valid visas as well

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/27/trump-signs-executive-order-for-extreme-vetting-refugees.html

--- quote---

The executive order also suspends visa entry into the U.S. from seven countries that have predominately Muslim populations. They include: Syria, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, Sudan and Yemen.

----end---

As for re-vetting at airport, it is certainly possible in some cases...

In fact that is what is currently done .. if some one has a valid visa, airlines will let them board

Then if the immigration officer at the airport believes their is some reason the person should not be let in or if the person is flagged in the system .. they are taken to a room to follow up and determine if person can be let in or not

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[Savilesghost]

10 minutes ago, CWMcMurray said:

Some more conservatives...


Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), wasn’t alone in its outrage. Awad was also flanked by Muslim, Jewish, and Christian leaders, including Rev. Steve Martin, communications director for the National Council of Christians—one of the largest coalitions of Christian churches in the country.
“I’ve been away of the rising tide of Islamophobia for a number of years,” he said, his voice rising. “I can’t even believe that things are getting as bad as they are—that state sponsored persecution of a class of people is happening.”
“We explicitly condemn any religious test for refugees,” he added.


People of faith, this is the moment we are called to,” Sister Simone Campbell, head of Catholic social justice lobby NETWORK, told the crowd. “This is our time to stand up for those who are struggling.”

Below is a list of faith groups and leaders condemning the order.

Alliance of Baptists
American Jewish World Service
Auburn Seminary
Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty
Bend the Arc
Catholic Relief Services
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Church of the Brethren
Church World Service

+ 29 more religious organizations and tons of religious leaders..

Need to put a link, as to many to copy and paste

https://thinkprogress.org/faith-groups-country-immigrants-muslim-b22798233c90#.d2xgp0yob

Wrong is wrong .. this is not a left/ right issue


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Edited January 29, 2017 by Savilesghost

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

So there are not moderate Republicans? Telling.

They are rare. 

[Savilesghost]

3 minutes ago, CWMcMurray said:

Have put a link for below on fox news, so you will know it is not some 'liberal lie'

The ban is not just on refugees but all those with valid visas as well

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/27/trump-signs-executive-order-for-extreme-vetting-refugees.html

--- quote---

The executive order also suspends visa entry into the U.S. from seven countries that have predominately Muslim populations. They include: Syria, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, Sudan and Yemen.

----end---

As for re-vetting at airport, it is certainly possible in some cases...

In fact that is what is currently done .. if some one has a valid visa, airlines will let them board

Then if the immigration officer at the airport believes their is some reason the person should not be let in or if the person is flagged in the system .. they are taken to a room to follow up and determine if person can be let in or not

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Why do you keep referring to a valid visa ? As stated a visa does not gurantee entry into a country anyway, its down to the immigration officer chopping one in 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Savilesghost