Tragedy played out on Facebook as sick and uninsured Bangkok expat dies on the way to hospital

[redwinecheese]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Isn't it really about people not being able to afford it?  So just carrying on with fingers crossed.

It's not about insurance in this case, the guy drove himself to death.

[Telecom66]

13 minutes ago, Janner1 said:

All doctors all over the world have to sign the Hypocratic oath, to preserve life and give treatment in a timely and professional manner.

If they do not sign the oath they can not use the moniker " Doctor " , and they can not lawfully practise , it is not enough to study and pass exams.

That is why they can be " Struck off "

 

This is not meant in any way to be offensive to you , merely a clarification

Janner1, this is not meant in any way to be offensive to you either, merely a clarification - but you are wrong about your assumptions of the Hypocratic Oath here in Thailand.

 

In Thalaind there are 3 different versions of the Hypocratic Oath. Different medical Universities swear to their preferred version.

 

However, NONE of the 3 different versions of the Hypocratic Oath are as strongly worded in commitment as the Oath in Western Standards.

 

The closest is the version heralded by the late King - which is only sworn to by Doctors graduating from Mahidol University. Hence the reason why the late King always went to the Hospital that is run and staffed by Mahidol University.

 

The majority of Doctors here in Thailand swear on the Oath "I will always try my best to do my best".

 

Additionally, it takes massive misconduct for a Doctor here to be struck off the register. That is not to say it does not happen - just that it takes so much time and money to prove misconduct that the average Thai's just give up, accept, and do not rock the boat.

 

Besides, you are just as likely to be sued by the Doctor for defamation in retaliation!!

[KhaoNiaw]

10 hours ago, jonclark said:

Obviously shows how poor the social security scheme is. Quite sad really as so many people rely on it. 

 

Hope the person involved here can find peace in the next life.

It really doesn't. There are many posts here that show how well the system CAN work. It really depends on the area, the hospital, the doctors and all the other variables. He'd obviously realized that he needed to change hospitals but there's nothing to say that played any part in his death.

[mommysboy]

21 minutes ago, redwinecheese said:

It's not about insurance in this case, the guy drove himself to death.

 

Yes literally, but I think many of us are commenting on his trials and tribulations, and apparent inability to secure treatment for a very badly infected leg, and what implications policies or the lack of will have on our lives.

 

Earlier in the day it did seem that he was in a bit of a panic.  That may have had some bearing on how he was riding, perhaps too fast because of anxiety, or maybe feeling self destructive, and again just simply in a bit of a state through pain or panic.

[bbbbooboo]

hmmmm..... looking at size of the bike he was riding.... he might have sold that to pay for treatment for his leg.... but everyone has different priorities I guess

[DogNo1]

US Medicare doesn't cover treatment outside of the USA nor does the Veteran's Administration.  US citizens above seventy simply can't get local insurance so they must self-insure.  Accident insurance only covers a limited amount for short-term treatment so elderly Americans must find a way to pay for their own treatment.  There's been quite a lot of discussion of this predicament on ThaiVisa.

[rkidlad]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

 

What oath  do they swear?  Is this something new?  Don't confuse  a  voluntary optional pledge of conduct with no legal standing that some countries have, as an obligation.  This is not a  television novella.

 

You are delusional if you believe that physicians in Thailand are obliged to provide complex and invasive medical treatments gratis. It does not occur. The best that one can hope for is a stabilization of an incident, but not a treatment or a "cure".  Thai hospitals may have compassionate care policies that will allow for emergency immediate care, but  they are not obliged either legally, nor morally, to do anything more.  

We are always morally obliged. Espcially if we're doctors. 

[starfish]

35 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yes literally, but I think many of us are commenting on his trials and tribulations, and apparent inability to secure treatment for a very badly infected leg, and what implications policies or the lack of will have on our lives.

 

Earlier in the day it did seem that he was in a bit of a panic.  That may have had some bearing on how he was riding, perhaps too fast because of anxiety, or maybe feeling self destructive, and again just simply in a bit of a state through pain or panic.

You are searching for other answers, and i envy you !, Give the man a break ! Or ?

 

 

[cyberfarang]

Westerners that decide to move to Thailand, should have secure long term monthly incomes of no less then 50000 baht and a minimum of 4 million baht in a Thai savings account stashed away for a rainy day. This is after expenses needed to set themselves up here, meaning homes, transport and general items for everyday living and learn to budget themselves never dipping into their capital. If not they are living on luck.

 

Westerners who can`t manage these financial necessities for a reasonable standard of living and a safety net for emergencies such as what happened in the tragic case of the OP, should not take the gamble and come here except for a holiday once a year if they can afford it. 

 

In Thailand no one`s going to give a monkey`s s*it about you if you run out of funds as just begging for aid with those responding by throwing ideas around is not going to help you.

[starfish]

18 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Westerners that decide to move to Thailand, should have secure long term monthly incomes of no less then 50000 baht and a minimum of 4 million baht in a Thai savings account stashed away for a rainy day. This is after expenses needed to set themselves up here, meaning homes, transport and general items for everyday living and learn to budget themselves never dipping into their capital. If not they are living on luck.

 

Westerners who can`t manage these financial necessities for a reasonable standard of living and a safety net for emergencies such as what happened in the tragic case of the OP, should not take the gamble and come here except for a holiday once a year if they can afford it. 

 

In Thailand no one`s going to give a monkey`s s*it about you if you run out of funds as just begging for aid with those responding by throwing ideas around is not going to help you.

 

Yeah, but sometimes things dont go "by plan". I´m happy, that I asked you not for help

Edited February 25, 2017 by starfish

[mommysboy]

19 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Westerners that decide to move to Thailand, should have secure long term monthly incomes of no less then 50000 baht and a minimum of 4 million baht in a Thai savings account stashed away for a rainy day. This is after expenses needed to set themselves up here, meaning homes, transport and general items for everyday living and learn to budget themselves never dipping into their capital. If not they are living on luck.

 

Westerners who can`t manage these financial necessities for a reasonable standard of living and a safety net for emergencies such as what happened in the tragic case of the OP, should not take the gamble and come here except for a holiday once a year if they can afford it. 

 

In Thailand no one`s going to give a monkey`s s*it about you if you run out of funds as just begging for aid with those responding by throwing ideas around is not going to help you.

 

Sadly true.  I'm really for the high jump.

[mommysboy]

24 minutes ago, starfish said:

You are searching for other answers, and i envy you !, Give the man a break ! Or ?

 

 

Don't get me wrong: I'm not one of the blamers.  Poor bloke.

 

Just that this is not specifically about the way he tragically died; this is about the serious leg wound he had and his not having any money to help himself, or an adequate health plan.

 

I mean read the story, because there are clear undertones.  I'm not playing Sherlock or getting caught in abstraction.

[Telecom66]

1 hour ago, KhaoNiaw said:

It really doesn't. There are many posts here that show how well the system CAN work. It really depends on the area, the hospital, the doctors and all the other variables. He'd obviously realized that he needed to change hospitals but there's nothing to say that played any part in his death.

I completely agree with KhaoNiaw.

 

The Social Security system here in Thailand works quiet well. Just last week the government increased the maximum treatment amount from 1 million Baht to 2 million Baht to keep in line with modern day treatment costs.

 

That said, it really does depend on the hospital, it's administrators, and it's doctors, as to whether you get a good experience/outcome or a bad one.

 

I have had personal experience with Chularat 9, as a private patient not Social Security, and even as a private patient the treatment was a comedy of errors and ommissions from start to finish. Not a hospital I would ever recommed. Obviously Christian did not knw that when he elected Chularat 9 as his Social Security provider, but was very obvious to him 6 months later once the hospital had thte SS money but Christian had no respite from his condition.

 

I still believe that Christian's accident had nothing to do with his leg or pain. I believe that the truth will show he was side-swiped off his bike and it was a hit-and-run. In our countries, the driver would be charged with manslaughter or even murder. The truth will emerge, and more than likely it will be video footage from someone following him, or, the CCTV cameras that are positioned all the way around that curve.

[cyberfarang]

15 minutes ago, starfish said:

Yeah, but sometimes things dont go "by plan". I´m happy, that I asked you not for help

I would not have helped you if in a similar situation because I have to place my own necessitates first, meaning I have enough funds for my own secure future in Thailand, but at my age now that`s it for me, what I have is my pension incomes and savings to last me out, whatever I lose or give away I cannot replace back. So in fact I am being honest with you. If I had a substantial amount of money over and above what I consider is my financial safety net, then I wouldn`t think twice about helping you out if in a desperate life or death situation and again I`m being sincere and honest with you.

 

The problem is that too many westerners believe that Thailand is a bargain basement destination, but they are under a great misapprehension because this country is no longer cheap and the money can literally run away from you here. But sometimes people would rather follow the dream than the common sense reality in this highly competitive world where year by year everything becomes more expensive and we need more and more money to lead stress free comfortable lifestyles. Some may agree or disagree but that`s the way it is.

[little mary sunshine]

6 hours ago, Dustdevil said:

All he had to do was add a supplement, the best being Plan F. I have that--it pays for everything basic Medicare doesn't--not one co-pay or deductible, and in the US you can take it directly to a specialist in the very best hospitals (Johns Hopkins; Cleveland Clinic) if you feel you must. And it's afffordable.

Great if he lived in the US...he lives in Thailand and has 

NO insurance.

[starfish]

21 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

I would not have helped you if in a similar situation because I have to place my own necessitates first, meaning I have enough funds for my own secure future in Thailand, but at my age now that`s it for me, what I have is my pension incomes and savings to last me out, whatever I lose or give away I cannot replace back. So in fact I am being honest with you. If I had a substantial amount of money over and above what I consider is my financial safety net, then I wouldn`t think twice about helping you out if in a desperate life or death situation and again I`m being sincere and honest with you.

 

The problem is that too many westerners believe that Thailand is a bargain basement destination, but they are under a great misapprehension because this country is no longer cheap and the money can literally run away from you here. But sometimes people would rather follow the dream than the common sense reality in this highly competitive world where year by year everything becomes more expensive and we need more and more money to lead stress free comfortable lifestyles. Some may agree or disagree but that`s the way it is.

You first, right ?

[starfish]

17 minutes ago, starfish said:

You first, right ?

I would not have any problem with your post, if you would have any consideration, giving a bit of your wealth away, but no, you can´t do that, bit selfish, no ?

[Telecom66]

2 hours ago, bipper said:

He had government social insurance. The same as any worker in Thailand has. On Thai wages personal BUPA cover was most likely unaffordable for him, unlike the fat armchair keyboard warriors on this site. He was most likely going to a hospital recommended to him by his Facebook biker group who I must say like myself are shocked at this tragic deat h which was most likely caused by being pushed into a wall by a driver who didn't stop. Christian was an experienced big bike rider. Next time you guys are on the road in your Isuzu or Toyoto Hilux keep your sleepy eyes open for motorcyclists. Much better than spewing <deleted> on this site I read day by day. <deleted>!    

Unlike Bipper, I did not have the pleasure of knowing Christian Melzer before he died

R.I.P Christian. My condolences to you Bipper, his Facebook Rider group, and of course his family and friends. R.I.P...

 

I can, however, offer my informed opinion as a fellow Big Bike rider for the last 45 years - the last 16 years riding Big Bikes and Small Bikes in Thailand. I also understand and speak Thai very well, so I was very interested in the running commentary of the videographer, and in my opinion, his many "crucial inaccuricies" and "false assumptions" that he was purveying to the Thai community,

 

00. ASSUMPTION: My gut feeling, as Bipper has already confirmed in his earlier post, is that Christian Melzer was indeed an experienced bike rider. You do not make a request to Facebook Rider group for a hospital recommendation "Never mind in which area in BKK or around", unless you are both experienced and confident in riding your Big Bike in all Bangkok traffic conditions. He had clearly stated he did not have money, so it is presumed he was not planing to take taxis, Baht Buses, or BTS/MRT/AirportLink - he was planning to ride his Big Bike. When he died, Christian had: a correctly fitting helmet (still on his head even after a 20 metre fall), belted long shorts, shirt, decent riding footware, and a valid THAI Driving License. Christian was obviously NOT your average Thailand Big Bike accident victim. He was not a drunk or drugged up Farang holiday sex tourist, with too much money and too little experience, who hired the biggest CC ("Cubic Centimeter" or "Coffin Catcher") Big Bike from a disreputable Beach Road bike shop, and accelerated off to his imminent demise on a rocket he had never previously taken for a test-ride. Christian was on a Big Bike he had ridden for at least 6 months, having gone to the trouble of getting a legitimate driving license. He had current Social Security Insurance, so obviously he was working in Thailand legally.

 

It is worth pointing out that, in my opinion, 6 months riding experience in Thailand is eqivalent to 2 x lifetimes of riding experience in our countries.

 

01. Christian stated in his last Facebook posts that he had been going to Chularat 9 hospital for the last 6 months "I have 6 months to fight with an infection and my hospital Chalurat 9 not get it away", so he would have travelled that section of road, particularly that overpass where the accident occurred, many many times over the last 6 months. Assuming he saw the doctor every month, that is 6 times he has previously successfully travelled that route. If he was in as much pain as he stated in his last Facebook posts, it is assummed he was going to the doctor every 2 weeks, that would be 12 times he has previously successfully travelled that route.

 

02. As a fellow bike rider, I therefore find it impossible to believe that he overestimated his abilities (e.g. was speeding or skylarking) on a section of road that he knew so well, on a Big Bike he knew well, and a route he had travelled the return trip often. It may be worth noting that for Christian to be on that overpass travelling in that direction, he was riding AWAY FROM Chularat 9 hospital, so his last posts on Facebook an hour before must have been made while sitting frustrated in Chularat 9 hospital after yet another futile visit. It may also be worth noting that the curve on that overpass is a big sweeping curve with a slight incline and quite good road surface. It would be a very comfortable corner to take at well over 100 Kms per hour if you wanted to

 

03. Speed was NOT the factor as the Big Bike only travelled 40 meters (guestimated by counting the number of wall panels seen in the video ) down the road after the accident. Projected initial speed is calculated using the followig International standardized formula...

Police Accident Investigation - Slide to stop formula:

S1 = √ (30df)

S1 = √ (30 *120 *0.41)

S1= √ 1476

S1 = 38.42 Miles per Hour

S2 = 61.82897743659784 Kilometres per Hour

Where:

S1 = Initial speed in miles per hour (?)
S2 = Initial speed in kilometres per hour (?)
d = total horizontal distance of motorcycle slide in feet (40 metres = 120 feet)
f = coefficient of friction of motorcycle (0.42)

g = gravity (32.2 feet per second squared)

* I chose to use the coefficient of friction as 0.42 rather than the 0.29 to allow for any wall scraping and slight uphill elevation.

http://www.mcnallyassociates.com/techpapers2/MCfriction.pdf

Honda   f=0.41

Suzuki   f=0.42

http://papers.sae.org/970963/

Preview Technical Paper - Test 4

 

04. No brake skidmarks on the road indicates Christian was neither expecting an accident nor avoiding an impact. This indicates that Christian's accident WAS NOT a single vehicle accident. A rider as experienced as Christian, would have instinctively and immediately locked up the brakes to avoid any imminent collision or impact. The lack of tyre skidmarks means that it was an unexpected impact which caught him unawares. From my personal experience, and having seen the area where the acident occurred in the video, my gut instincts tell me that a vehicle/truck either side-swiped him from behind, or a vehicle in the right Airport exit lane, realized they were in the wrong lane and quickly jerked across without looking into Christian's left lane  to Minburi. Another 30-40 metres down the road is the concrete devider wall forcing the right lane to split off to the Airport, and forcing the left lane to split off to Minburi. Ironically that I at the same point as Christian's bike came to rest.

 

05. Suicide is an absurd suggestion. If an experienced bike rider was having suicidal thoughts, there are much more definative ways to end your life. In fact, I would hazard a guess that it would be almost impossible for an experienced rider to have Christian's accident on purpose - your natural survival instincts would kick-in way before impact. I have friends who are professional Hollywood stuntman who have worked on some of the craziest movie stunts, including the last Mad Max Fury Road movie back when they were filming in late 2014. I remember back then they told me that some of the stunts were so near impossible to do because their natural instincts would auto-correct them at the last minute. And those guys are trained to have no fear - but still, once the brain goes into self-preservation mode it forces you to auto-correct. It would be near impossible for Christian to intentionally ride and "kiss" the wall with the intention of falling over the edge. In actual fact, if it was a single vehicle accident, and Christian was leaning into the curve when the tyres hit the wall, the bike would have fallen over to the right and not the left..

 

06. Video impact marks do not make sense. The impact marks on the barrier wall in the video are very short, too close together, and appear 10 metres past the point where Christian's body lay on the ground. The videographer guesstimates that because the flyover is above 2 other flyovers, and typically the clearance is 6 metres, that the drop from Christian's flyover to the ground is about 20 metres. Now because Christian was travelling with forward momentum and with a projected vault angle of 45 degrees, it is calculated that Christian went over the wall some 20-25 metres before the point of where his body came to rest. That point corresponds with the last 40 metres available before the concrete split barrier begins..Destinct black scuff marks seen in the video which would suggest a sudden sharpe left turn into the wall (as if the bike was hit and ricocheted or the handlebars clipped by a passing vehicle), are not consistent with the long black scuff mark you would expect to see from a single vehicle kissing the curb. But the scuff marks appear AFTER the point where his body lays - not 20-30 metres before as would be expected. In fact, there is almost nill evidence to show that the bike hit the wall or skidded down the road. The whole accident sceen defies logic. Christian's black shirt has white scuff marks on his chest from when he has fallen over the wall, but there are no signs of the bike having hit the wall or skidded along the roadway..

 

07. Police suggestions makes no sense. While the police will always try to find the easiest excuse possible, their initial thoughts that he hit the barrier himself is not even within the realms of possibility. There is much more to this than meets the eye. Somewhere, someone knows the truth. Let's hope that the CCTV or someone's dashcam has the definitive answers for his family and friends. But until then, the maths and science and physics does not add up to a single vehicle accident.

 

Just my 2 cents worth... 

[cyberfarang]

58 minutes ago, starfish said:

I would not have any problem with your post, if you would have any consideration, giving a bit of your wealth away, but no, you can´t do that, bit selfish, no ?

It`s not wealth because I am not rich. I am comfortable and mean to stay that way. I would give what I can afford and that wouldn`t be covering a strangers medical expenses that could escalate to many thousands of bahts.

 

But if it were a close member of my family, I would risk my own future if it came to the crunch. But giving a complete stranger something that may jeopardise my future, than no. Otherwise who is going to give a toss about me in Thailand if I become in desperate need? You, I doubt it. If you consider that as being a bit selfish by putting myself and close family first, then yes I guess that makes me a bit selfish.

Edited February 25, 2017 by cyberfarang

[hawker9000]

14 hours ago, brianwl said:

"Get treated first and worry later. Life and death should have no price tag."

This advice is old as time and DOES NOT WORK.

 

If you go for medical care, they will treat the immediate emergency, but if you have no resources to pay for it, you get no follow up treatment.  Or, you get all your money taken away and can't leave the country until the bill is paid.

 

The Governments of the countries we come from need to work with the Thai Government to ensure medical bills for those using Government insurance like Social Security or Veterans Venefits (in the case of the US) are paid promptly.

Individuals need to take responsibility for themselves, but having done that there IS a need for government involvement in making CERTAIN that medical benefits earned or bought & paid for are delivered and delivered without delay, including across international boundaries if the benefit provides for that.

 

Not really sure whether this individual had really provided for himself or not.

 

Unless disabled and getting SSDI, I don't know what Social Security has to do with anything.  And as a veteran, unless a Tricare-eligible retiree (who still has to front medical expenses and then get reimbursed, I think), or something service-related and so covered by VA (and this doesn't look like it's service-related), not sure what that has to do with it either.

 

RIP.  But for everyone else who shrugs off the need for medical insurance when traveling or residing overseas and is rationalizing their own negligence, take note.

 

[jacko45k]

14 hours ago, fstarbkk said:

No money for health insurance, but riding around on a THB 250K motorcycle. Priorities?

It does seem heartless, but if he did indeed own the bike, it could have got him home for treatment.

To be living here  and suffering and unable to obtain treatment in his own mind must have been stressful.

 

I don't say Thailand has any obligation to provide treatment....... too many cases of foreigners / tourists leaving bills behind have made them get tougher.

 

A similar case many years ago in the Pattaya area, only able to afford the cheapest that put a guy in jeopardy  of losing his leg, a collection got him a flight home but sadly died in the airport!

[beerzy]

16 hours ago, rkidlad said:

Regardless of what you think about him having no insurance, he should have gone to the best and nearest hospital. Doctors swear an oath. 

 

Get treated first and worry later. Life and death should have no price tag.

No you don't understand they way treatment happens in Thailand.  No money you will not get treated.

[Janner1]

5 hours ago, Telecom66 said:

Janner1, this is not meant in any way to be offensive to you either, merely a clarification - but you are wrong about your assumptions of the Hypocratic Oath here in Thailand.

 

In Thalaind there are 3 different versions of the Hypocratic Oath. Different medical Universities swear to their preferred version.

 

However, NONE of the 3 different versions of the Hypocratic Oath are as strongly worded in commitment as the Oath in Western Standards.

 

The closest is the version heralded by the late King - which is only sworn to by Doctors graduating from Mahidol University. Hence the reason why the late King always went to the Hospital that is run and staffed by Mahidol University.

 

The majority of Doctors here in Thailand swear on the Oath "I will always try my best to do my best".

 

Additionally, it takes massive misconduct for a Doctor here to be struck off the register. That is not to say it does not happen - just that it takes so much time and money to prove misconduct that the average Thai's just give up, accept, and do not rock the boat.

 

Besides, you are just as likely to be sued by the Doctor for defamation in retaliation!!

I STAND CORRECTED, I FORGOT COMPLETELY,  TIT 

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[lvr181]

15 hours ago, darksidedog said:

Am I the only person wondering if he drove into the wall deliberately?

Clearly he was in much pain and anguish and was feeling desperate.

Going over that parapet is going to end all of that for sure.

The same thought had entered my mind. Desperate circumstances and very sad outcome. May he R.I.P

[cocorico2558]

Thai visa com is hitting rock bottom with this catchy title. Have you guys worked at 'The Sun' before coming to Thailand? just wanna readers get to the article right? Which drama pn fb? what has uninsured to do with his motor cycle accident? Total disgrce!!!

[tandor]

...all the ghouls and vultures gathered..how come no traffic police moving them on..next thing there will be a food cart and T shirt stand setting up there...amazing Thailand.   RIP.

Edited February 26, 2017 by metisdead
Font reset to normal.

[Spaniel]

RIP, Christian.

[djayz]

18 hours ago, fstarbkk said:

No money for health insurance, but riding around on a THB 250K motorcycle. Priorities?

My sentiments exactly!

[rodney earl]

It is sad that he has died but he said that he had no money but he seems to have had enough to buy some big powerful motorbike.!!