Thai labor law for teachers with contracts?

[happysanook]

If someone has been teaching faithfully at a school for 3 years under proper non-B visa with work permits and such, and the school has informed them 1 month before the contract ends that they are being let go (no renewal of contract), are they entitled to some compensation?

 

Thanks in advance.

[dinsdale]

If you are on a 1 year contract and that contract ends in 1 month then no. If you are on a two year contract probably, as your contract would still have year to run. Having said this the school would come up with a reason for your dismissal. You would stand no chance and the likelihood of getting another teaching job in Thailand would be slim. In your case the school is not renewing your contract. You are a contract worker. Sometimes contracts don't get renewed. Time to move on. Be interested to know why your contract is not  being renewed.

[ghworker2010]

Is this thread for real. Contract is coming to an end. Is that hard to understand. They don't want you anymore. Read the contract. Its the joy of contracting. So many jobs out there. Get a new one.

[DavisH]

58 minutes ago, ghworker2010 said:

Is this thread for real. Contract is coming to an end. Is that hard to understand. They don't want you anymore. Read the contract. Its the joy of contracting. So many jobs out there. Get a new one.

This has been discussed many times before. While one has a yearly contract, the teaching job usually still exists after the contract is finished. It's not at though the job has finished (such as temporary project work). Having said that, the only teacher I know who got compensation was fired during his contract without fair warning (i.e., verbal and written warnings). A number who were let go at the end of their contracts had approached the labor department, but came away without anything. 

[Scott]

On the year-to-year contract, there is not much you can do if they decide not to renew it.   If they pay you once a month, then one months notice is sufficient, provided that will take you to the end of the contract.  

[muzmurray]

Yearly contracts like yours have an expectation of being renewed and therefore you should be entitled to severance pay.

 

http://www.doingbusinessthailand.com/blog-thailand/thai-labor-protection-how-to-terminate-and-employee.html

 

Your best bet is to go to your local labour office and get their clarification. Don't forget that you will also be eligible for unemployment benefit of up to 7,500 Baht a month for 6 months.

 

Plus, when you are at the social office, make sure you ask to keep paying the 432 Baht a month, this will keep your medical etc benefits going.

 

 

[Scott]

In my administrative role, I have seen many, many people go to the Ministry of Labor on this issue and no one thus far has any success in getting severance pay.    You can read the law anyway you want, but the Labor ministry has generally seen these as simply a contract ending and has little to do with the continuation of the job.  

 

There are situations where people have gotten money (and I have been involved in a few cases where this happened), but these happened when people were terminated before the contract and without due notice, or without previous warnings (and nothing egregious, such as hitting a child).   I have also seen where the contract lapsed without the 30 days notice and the school was told to pay them 30 days.   

 

That said, it is always worth checking out all your options, including the Labor ministry.  

[malt25]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why anyone would expect severance pay once a time based contract has expired. If one can't accept the conditions of a contract, what's the point in having it ?

But hey, just my view.

[muzmurray]

On 2/28/2017 at 0:30 PM, malt25 said:

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why anyone would expect severance pay once a time based contract has expired. If one can't accept the conditions of a contract, what's the point in having it ?

But hey, just my view.

 

It is the expectation of renewal that is important, most teachers jobs are not just for 1 year and then the post disappears.

[Scott]

I have been involved in maybe 20 cases where someone went to the Ministry of Labor to contest the contract.   To date, not one even made it to a full hearing if the only issue was that the school was not going to renew the contract.   Those who did manage to have a case that involved an actual hearing (and of those two won) were these:

 

1.  Employees, who were not given the 30 days notice (specified in the contract).   They still did not get a new contract and they did not get severance pay, but the school was required to pay them for 30 days from the date they were informed.

 

2.   Those whose termination was before the end of the contract and were not given the required warnings, both verbally and in writing.   Of those, one was awarded payment of the full duration of the contract, in other words, the employee was paid to the end of the contract.   Another one was given 3 months pay -- although I don't know what the basis of deciding that amount was.  

 

But regardless of what is written on the internet, it will not cost you anything to check and see if there is something in your situation that would qualify you for a settlement of some kind or another.  

[sandemara]

I experienced something similar while employed by one of the top unis in Thailand. Two days before my fourth consecutive annual contract ended a uni rep informed my wife - not me - that they could not renew my contract due to lack of funds.. They offered to employ me at a slightly higher hourly rate from a different budget allocation instead when I spoke to the head of my department the next day. However, they also advised me the new arrangement would mean I would not need a work permit, either (??!!). I could not believe what I was hearing and asked for their assurance that I would not need a work permit in writing. I never received that.  I had done nothing wrong; I even conducted classes for uni admin staff, students at risk of dropping out of uni and other lecturers. I would not accept the (on the budget books) apparent "casual" (still full-time work, however) employment arrangement. I received no severance pay, nor holiday pay.  A lawyer, a family friend, advised me to not bother suing as teaching work in virtually all universities here is not covered by local labour laws. It's open season on foreigners who trust their uni employers to understand words like integrity or professionalism. Other schools and unis have offered me work regularly since. I've begun to understand why the education system here is a grand joke.

Bitter? Ha!!  Good luck getting any assistance or sympathy  from the Labour Dept.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 3/2/2017 at 8:29 AM, Scott said:

I have been involved in maybe 20 cases where someone went to the Ministry of Labor to contest the contract.   To date, not one even made it to a full hearing if the only issue was that the school was not going to renew the contract.   Those who did manage to have a case that involved an actual hearing (and of those two won) were these:

 

1.  Employees, who were not given the 30 days notice (specified in the contract).   They still did not get a new contract and they did not get severance pay, but the school was required to pay them for 30 days from the date they were informed.

 

2.   Those whose termination was before the end of the contract and were not given the required warnings, both verbally and in writing.   Of those, one was awarded payment of the full duration of the contract, in other words, the employee was paid to the end of the contract.   Another one was given 3 months pay -- although I don't know what the basis of deciding that amount was.  

 

But regardless of what is written on the internet, it will not cost you anything to check and see if there is something in your situation that would qualify you for a settlement of some kind or another.  

I've recently read the Thai labour law, which states that a worker on yearly contracts IS entitle to full severance pay. I have a friend who got 240 days, I think, after working a a school for 6 years. 

 

 

[Rhys]

Seems to balance the runners... thus eye for the foot.

[Scott]

Everybody seems to know someone who got severance, but I attended more than one court hearing where it was denied.   I know of no one that has gotten it and that's in 20+ years of working in education.

 

I know of people who have won court cases for unfair dismissal and been paid to the end of their contract.   I know some who have won similar cases and gotten 30 or 60 days severance (depending on the contract), but these were due to violation of the contract, not Thai labor law.  

[inThailand]

Brilliant!

 

A monitor who is a teacher. How low can one get?

[Scott]

44 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Brilliant!

 

A monitor who is a teacher. How low can one get?

I am not sure what you are asking, but the paying of severance under the Thai labor laws.   Those going to labor court where I have been involved have had issues related to unfair dismissal and were requesting financial redress for it.   In most cases, it was denied, but a few were found to be credible (and in my opinion, they were).  

 

Employees who are discharged in the middle of a contract with a very good, strong reason have won their case and in one case was paid to the end of the contract, a sum of around 400,000 baht.  That employee had worked for the school for 6+ years.   Another was paid for 3 months (If I remember correctly).   Her representative at court wished for her to appeal, but she declined as it was quite time consuming.  

 

In both those cases, the school exercised extremely poor judgment in discharging them.   The first had managed to work successfully for 6+ years without a problem and the grievances against her were relatively minor (arriving late, but not seriously late -- no classes missed; parking her vehicle in the parent's parking lot on several occasions).  None of the minor violations were substantiated.   For example, there was no designated parking area.  It was word of mouth, such as 'don't park there'.   The time clock used was notoriously incorrect and was sometimes 10-15 minutes off.   

 

Although she worked for 6 years, she received pay to the end of the contract.   She did not receive severance for the 6 years of service.  

 

My advice to anyone who believes that they have a claim, including to severance for years of service, it is always worth pursuing.   You do not need an attorney to file a claim.    Perhaps at some point, the courts will start siding with foreign employees on a regular basis.  

 

[Loaded]

I'm with Scott on this one. I actually obtained money via the Labor Court many years ago but for unpaid salary. I've heard several times that schools are exempt from severance payment requirements under labor law. I'm not sure whether this is just for government schools or private schools as well. I've also heard of teachers obtaining 'severance payments' but I think this was during the negotiation process initiated by the Labor Office with the school. Teachers may have been awarded severance pay by a labor court but I have never heard of an example.

[Scott]

Private schools are specifically exempted from severance, I used to have a link to the private school act that spelled it out, but I don't have it any longer.  

 

The payments I was referring to that were awarded were for unpaid wages, in both cases because they were unfairly dismissed and the payment was for the time that they should have been allowed to work.   With one it was until the end of the contract and the other it was for the month she was discharged, and 30 days for the termination period that was not given.  

[pearciderman]

21 hours ago, Scott said:

Private schools are specifically exempted from severance, I used to have a link to the private school act that spelled it out, but I don't have it any longer.  

 

The payments I was referring to that were awarded were for unpaid wages, in both cases because they were unfairly dismissed and the payment was for the time that they should have been allowed to work.   With one it was until the end of the contract and the other it was for the month she was discharged, and 30 days for the termination period that was not given.  

 

Not strictly true, they are liable, but under a different set of rules;

 

Part 6 Working Protection Section 86.17

The affairs of a Formal School only on the part of the Director, teachers and educational personnel shall not be subject to the law on labor protection, the law on labor relations, the law on social security and the law on compensation. However, the Director, teachers and educational personnel of a Formal School shall receive remunerations not less than those prescribed in the law on labor protection.

Working protection, the adoption of Working Protection Committee and the minimum remunerations of the Director, teachers and educational personnel of the Formal Schools shall be in accordance with the rules prescribed by the Commission.

[The Hood]

I will add that a colleague had a strong case of unfair instant dismissal with no warning, while on full contract, and for no gross misconduct. This was an issue of parents making complaints about poor test results. However, following advice from a lawyer to appeal at the Department of Labour, was told being a foreigner, he fell under The Ministry of Education Law. Whilst discussing his case there was no mention of clear cut legal protection for instant dismissal for nothing amounting to gross misconduct. He withdrew following his pillar to post investigations thinking the Ministry of Education could well be in cohoots with high profile heads at one of the schools. 

[Scott]

A lot of cases go to the MoE, although I have never been involved in one where gross misconduct is involved.   In my experience, the MoE, is quite thorough and fair in their handling of cases.  

 

I have dealt with cases where misconduct has been alleged, usually this is behavior that involves something coming close to physical abuse.   It is investigated and the parents are called in to discuss it before action is usually taken.   Some parents will compromise, some will say either the teacher is dismissed or we will file charges.  

 

With the issue of test scores, it usually, but not always, involves allegations of cheating or favoritism toward some students to the disadvantage of others.   How serious that type of charge is depends on a whole lot of factors, including the attitude of the school toward cheating.  

 

Unhappy parents can hold amazing sway over a school.  

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

13 hours ago, Scott said:

A lot of cases go to the MoE, although I have never been involved in one where gross misconduct is involved.   In my experience, the MoE, is quite thorough and fair in their handling of cases.  

 

I have dealt with cases where misconduct has been alleged, usually this is behavior that involves something coming close to physical abuse.   It is investigated and the parents are called in to discuss it before action is usually taken.   Some parents will compromise, some will say either the teacher is dismissed or we will file charges.  

 

With the issue of test scores, it usually, but not always, involves allegations of cheating or favoritism toward some students to the disadvantage of others.   How serious that type of charge is depends on a whole lot of factors, including the attitude of the school toward cheating.  

 

Unhappy parents can hold amazing sway over a school.  

 

 

Don't you mean the MoL?

[MrPatrickThai]

On 12/30/2017 at 2:08 AM, inThailand said:

Brilliant!

 

A monitor who is a teacher. How low can one get?

What's low about being a teacher?

[Scott]

2 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Don't you mean the MoL?

Many are settled with the area office of the MoE.   I am not sure how or why they end up there, I believe that the MoL may decide that they should be settled by the Education office.  

 

I have also been involved with cases of unfair dismissal that went to the MoL.  

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

11 hours ago, Scott said:

Many are settled with the area office of the MoE.   I am not sure how or why they end up there, I believe that the MoL may decide that they should be settled by the Education office.  

 

I have also been involved with cases of unfair dismissal that went to the MoL.  

 

 

Maybe you mean the ones that are settled out of court. According to an expert, most are settled just by threatening the school with legal action, showing you are not some dumb newbie, straight off the boat. Even not getting hired after 1 year, one can get compensation of 1 month. SO many teachers do nothing. Probably the school head keeps the cash.

[Scott]

4 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Maybe you mean the ones that are settled out of court. According to an expert, most are settled just by threatening the school with legal action, showing you are not some dumb newbie, straight off the boat. Even not getting hired after 1 year, one can get compensation of 1 month. SO many teachers do nothing. Probably the school head keeps the cash.

You might want to start reading the post here:  

I am not sure exactly how the determination is made by the MoL.   The cases that we had that went to the MoE were sent there by the Labor ministry.   Those cases had to do with money that the teacher thought was owed by the school for the time they were on probation.   The contract is fairly tight and specific about the conditions for the money to be given.   The school has never lost on that issue.

 

The MoL cases were all those that dealt with wages that were believed to be owed to the teacher.   I have written those up in other threads, but to be brief, in two of the more recent cases, the employee was paid to the end of the contract.   In neither case was severance paid even though one teacher had been there over 6 years.  

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

11 minutes ago, Scott said:

In neither case was severance paid even though one teacher had been there over 6 years.  

Interesting, thanks. Goes against what my lawyer friend says is the law. 

[Scott]

Yes, and that has always been a problem.   A lot of lawyers tell employees to sue for severance, but they are not successful.   The law says they should get it, but there is an exclusion for education.  

 

That said, I always tell people to seek legal advice, if they think they have a case.   It costs nothing to go to the MoL and pursue a case.   They will advise employees and their 'bias' if there is one is toward employees, not employers.   

 

[pearciderman]

9 hours ago, Scott said:

Yes, and that has always been a problem.   A lot of lawyers tell employees to sue for severance, but they are not successful.   The law says they should get it, but there is an exclusion for education.  

 

That said, I always tell people to seek legal advice, if they think they have a case.   It costs nothing to go to the MoL and pursue a case.   They will advise employees and their 'bias' if there is one is toward employees, not employers.   

 

 

Show me that! I would love to see that written in Thai in black and white!

[Scott]

1 hour ago, pearciderman said:

 

Show me that! I would love to see that written in Thai in black and white!

As I said earlier, I no longer have a link to the specific law.  

 

Also as I have said, it costs nothing to contact the MOL to pursue a case and I ALWAYS advise people, even employees I work with, to feel free to contact them if they feel they have a case.