Time Up For Some 30 Day Visa Runners

[Maestro]

Because the concept of "equal protection under the law" is a modern principle of international human rights that discourages government action which discriminates on the basis of race, religion, etc., including socio-economic status.

Rexall, if I understand you correctly you are saying that everybody with a low socio-economic status in his home country should be allowed to freely enter your country and enjoy the benefits of the better economy in your country. If this is what you are saying, are you really serious?

--

Maestro

[Krub]

If they don't have sufficient resources to satisfy the visa regulations why should the Thai government allow them to enter?

Because the concept of "equal protection under the law" is a modern principle of international human rights that discourages government action which discriminates on the basis of race, religion, etc., including socio-economic status. True, adhering to principles of humane, fair and equal treatment may not always be convenient to a government who hopes to accomplish some end by enacting a law. However, it is no longer acceptable to just willy-nilly discriminate against poor people unless there are other very compelling issues at stake.

Aloha,

Rex

Try telling that to western embassies when a Thai applies for a visa

[jasreeve17]

Sorry to be so pedantic on this wonderful sunny morn. I have seen the term 'western farang', is there such a thing as an 'eastern farang'?

A farang is a white person.

Or a French person. Would Tierry Henry, Patrick Vierra, etc etc be Farangs? Mongolians are the Whietest people I've ever seen. Are they Farangs?

[sorry, wrong thread]

[baboon]

Wrong Baboon. The policy was introduced by the elected goverment before it was removed.

CRUNCHER- The new policy as you correctly point out was indeed introduced by the previous administration. However if you read my post again, you will see I used the word IMPLEMEMTED by the present government. Not the same thing at all and I stand by what I said. You are quite right to pick me up on anything you dont agree with, however. TV would be pretty boring otherwise.

[pascharay]

i still dont see why this is such a huge problem...

i think they are right to do what they plan to do.

if your legally here, then fine. show your work permit, visa etc.

people who are here legally will have everything they need.

people who are here illegally then you deserve what you get for doing what you do.

most people here when they are back in their own country's probably didnt like all the immigrants in their own country...

look at the uk... do you agree with whats going on there??

no...

well your doing the exact same as them over here...

in the end, if they do enforce it, ( prays they do ) then the people here legally with permits, visa's etc will reap the benefits.

i cant wait for teacher wages to go up when there is a shortage of teachers...

myself and my farang girlfriend are more than laughing at this scenario...

sitting on a years permit, and a 3 year contract i dont see what we need to worry about.

apart from going with the highest bidder to hire us.

Highest bidder?

Mike hope you and your girlfriend have a nice time gloating over other people's troubles.

No wonder you live in minburi

Typical suburban mentality

[rexall]

Because the concept of "equal protection under the law" is a modern principle of international human rights that discourages government action which discriminates on the basis of race, religion, etc., including socio-economic status.

Rexall, if I understand you correctly you are saying that everybody with a low socio-economic status in his home country should be allowed to freely enter your country and enjoy the benefits of the better economy in your country. If this is what you are saying, are you really serious?

--

Maestro

Well, no, not exactly. What I said was that governments ought to take care in enacting policy that discriminates against people because of their socio-economic status, just as they ought to take care in enacting policy that discriminates on the basis of race, religion, gender. Most people would be eager to agree with that abstraction, but actually applying it and dealing the the messy reality may be another story.

It's complicated. I assume by "your country" you meant "my country" which happens to be the U.S. And America is completely schizophrenic and awful about immigration. As Krub points out, the U.S. is draconian when Thais try to obtain a visa legally. However, once they do manage to get in, by hook or by crook, joining the ranks of an estimated 12 million (12,000,000 !!!) so called "illegals" (or "undocumented" depending on your politics) they can remain indefinitely at very little risk of being punished or deported. Any children they birth will be citizens. Aside from the benefits they may accrue, it cannot be very comfortable living in some twilight zone of legality. Regardless of anyone's feelings or opinions, I suspect that sooner or later, these 12 million will have to be granted some kind of legal status whether you call it "amnesty" or "path to citizenship" or whatever.

The fact is that as globalization increases and patterns of migration become more dynamic, there is a natural pressure for international borders to become more porous. Governments will either recognize that reality and respond intelligently . . . or they won't. Tourists are wanted. Cheap labor is wanted. Investment is wanted. But governments may not be able to attract and accommodate those assets without giving up some control of the process, like it or not. Years ago when I was in between visas, I did my sequential visa runs for a few months. It gets old really quick. I couldn't imagine doing that indefinitely. But if someone chooses to live like that, so what? Who does it hurt? And although I doubt that Thailand would shrivel up and blow away without visa running resident tourists, these people do spend money and pay taxes, possibly support a family, and that's all to the good. What's the big deal? What exactly is the supposed "abuse" that some get so upset about? I think you would be hard pressed to find anything at all . . . except that authority doesn't like to be challenged.

This is a bogus issue. Leave the resident tourists along, they aren't hurting anyone.

Aloha,

Rex

Edited December 17, 2006 by rexall

[unbiasbob]

i still dont see why this is such a huge problem...

i think they are right to do what they plan to do.

if your legally here, then fine. show your work permit, visa etc.

people who are here legally will have everything they need.

people who are here illegally then you deserve what you get for doing what you do.

most people here when they are back in their own country's probably didnt like all the immigrants in their own country...

look at the uk... do you agree with whats going on there??

no...

well your doing the exact same as them over here...

in the end, if they do enforce it, ( prays they do ) then the people here legally with permits, visa's etc will reap the benefits.

i cant wait for teacher wages to go up when there is a shortage of teachers...

myself and my farang girlfriend are more than laughing at this scenario...

sitting on a years permit, and a 3 year contract i dont see what we need to worry about.

apart from going with the highest bidder to hire us.

Highest bidder?

Mike hope you and your girlfriend have a nice time gloating over other people's troubles.

No wonder you live in minburi

Typical suburban mentality

Gloating about that increase in teacher pay he stands to get, 30K/mo to 31K. roflmao

[rexall]

people who are here illegally then you deserve what you get for doing what you do.

most people here when they are back in their own country's probably didnt like all the immigrants in their own country...

look at the uk... do you agree with whats going on there??

no...

Fascinating! Rather than using these discussions to improve cross-cultural understanding and tolerance, you cite bigotry in the UK to justify treatment of farang in Thailand!

Aloha,

Rex

[LivinLOS]

Oh, great rich boy. Now let's see: I have a rich daddy too, but actually its much too hot in Thailand for me and I also easily get dark skin with that bloody sun shining all day long. I therefore would love to go to London, rent a litte pent house (daddy pays, okay) and enjoy the miserable whether there 11 months a year. Of course I would not even think about working, that's something for proletariats. Now tell me, can I do that? Will I be permitted into the UK for eternity just because I have some cash left over? Please understand that a british retirement visa would not work for me. First I'm only 37 and second remember I never made part of the working people so there's nothing I could retire from.

Guys please make the mirror test. Would your country allow what you ask Thailand to allow? If not then just accept it. And for gods sake, don't come with your third world bull sh... now.

Of course Britian welcomes millionaires.. Are you joking ?? You think Taxin does visa runs from his Kensington pad ??

The US allows wealthy immigrants easily.. NZ..

These are just off the toip of my head..

Not only taht but with equal land ownership, equal under law, etc etc etc

[LivinLOS]

2 million per year, that's not even a nice car. You dont' think it will hurt the economy if you waste your money somewhere else?

Of course.. I agree that 50k per year isnt huge.. That why I like living here in that you get a lot for your money..

But if 100 people like me leave (or dont come more realistically) to a province like Phuket thats 200,000,000 baht lost in a single small province..

All direct foreign exchange.. direct inward currency with no investment..

[thaiclan]

I'm 29 and lived in Thailand for 4years. I had an overseas income, so never needed to work. I arrived on a non imm visa, but when it expired my baby was 14 months old and I had no desire to take a long flight to get a new one. I did the 30 day thing for about 8 months until I returned to UK to get 2nd non-imm. I agree that the "system" did not account for immigrants like me (young, female, parent, independent income), but then again then weren't many people like me in Thailand, and despite seeing increasingly more, it still remains a marginal category compared to the retirees, employees and sex tourists. So I can understand the lack of visa availabilty - despite it working against me.

Anyway, I have now moved to Singapore (schooling purposes), but I have booked up a course to learn to fly in Thailand.

Will I be able to go back and forth to BKK (most weekends) without a problem with the new 30 day visa rule?

I am a Singapore Permanent Resident.

[ruds]

Take your blinkers off, there are more than 3 shelves of long term visitors in Thailand.

Here is another.

Here is another... those that have work back in the UK for 6 mths of the year (during summer - one is a farming contractor, another is a tour bus driver, another is a builder), that work hard in the UK for 6 months of the year so they can blow all their hard-earned cash in Thailand for the other six months of the year (typically Oct-Apr). I know at least one of these guys has already had to book his ticket home before Christmas this year due to these rules and won't be spending half as much money there this year as the years before.

Well he is an idiot then, he should have got a tourist visa from the UK before he left. People have no pity for the unprepared. This blog is for people with real issues, who require advise.

[thaihome]

DrDweeb, please excuse me for butting into your disagreement with Phil. I must say, your mastery of written English is quite impressive. Your understanding of Thai macroeconomics is IMHO lacking. These thoughts are not original as they were provided me by a gentleman who became a Deputy Prime Minister. In fact, these thoughts were provided me over 30 years ago and are totally relevent today. This is a all about a socio-economic class struggle. Poor Issan Thais being empowered by Farang dollars. A gradual but quite real anomoly. The Thai urban professional does not want his next door neighbor to be an Issan farm girl with a half farang baby. And they certainly do not want to pay Farang prices for their new home.

So now the new 90/180 visa exempt rule is a conspiracy by the Thai elite to keep the Issan farm girls down?

Excuse me while I

TH

[DrDweeb]

(clue.. Get a second passport.. wow that was tough)..

Get a second passport and use that! These are definitely the words of a genius! How many people who do not have dual nationality can get a second passport legally? 'Lose' your passport and then file a false police report, a false declaration to your embassy and pick up your new passport. Then, because you still have your old passport with the entry stamp in it, use it to leave the country. That, as I said before, is a touch of genius and now all you have to do is explain why you are leaving the country on a VOID passport.

I cannot speak for other nationalities, but the British government will issue a second passport,

if you can justify the need.

1. Travelling to one country, and then to a second the does not recognise the first. Say Israel, then needing to visit an arab country.

2. Need to trave whilst your passport is with an embassy to obtain a visa.

There may be other acceptable reasons.

A friend who works for a major newspaper has no less that 7 UK passports.

I tried number 2 with the Australian Embassy. Try spending the 5 working days a week in some country, say Karlsruhe DE., being a resident of Sweden, living i Nörreköping and travelling home every weekend. Now you wish to obtain a visa to ANY Easter Eiropean country. The passport needs to be surrendered in the country of residence or the country of issue for the visa.

This clearly should warrant the issue of an extra passport. The Australian Embassy told me to f***off and if I wanted a visa to Russia (job related in fact), then that was my problem and I should just go sit in Sweden for how ever long it too the Russians to issue it.

The 2 passport thing is OK for the UK folks, but personal experience tells me it is essentially impossible for aussies.

Dweeb

[kozi]

Great

This just gets better and better.

Unfortunately, like any other malignant disease, they keep on finding new ways of coming back.

When will they get the message? DROSS not wanted here.

I would like to see the 30 day free entry into Thailand, abolished.

[Heng]

This is a all about a socio-economic class struggle. Poor Issan Thais being empowered by Farang dollars. A gradual but quite real anomoly.

Tolerant of the well to do gay, katoey, Indian, Sikh, etc.... but the line drawn at the empowered Issan housewife/husband of a farang? IMO, no.

As for the "anomaly," IMO the 'empowerment' is typically very short lived. I see it all the time with Issan wives and some husbands of farangs coming to us with title deeds -paid for by farangs- for collateral on non-business related loans (more often consumption related). The work ethic and responsibility just isn't there yet. The enrichment (again just IMO) is by no means generational. It's more akin to pouring funds with little guidance or opportunity into a typical American ghetto or barrio.

In order for true progress to made, the gov't has to first eliminate the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce. Only then will luk krung offspring have an opportunity to practice and build their work ethic in a farang controlled environment. Until then, most are destined to be assimilated, exported, or worse yet: thrown into the entertainment industry meat grinder. The empowerment, as of now, ends when the pension payments stop coming or when the farang patriarch/matriarch dies.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Heng

[DrDweeb]

I dont need your advice about economics thanks as I am not interested in it. I am talking about 'the so called 'tourists' who may contribute to the economy by spending money, however they are possibly evading paying taxes in Thailand and possibly their own countries simply by remaining as tourists.

Lets face it tourists are tourists and should expect to be treated respectfully in a foreign country but equally they should respect the country they are visiting by not trying to buck the system as so many do in Thailand and at last the rules are being tightened up.

No one ever heard of global terrorism? Any country with an open door policy is crazy.

I can understand why so many are upset with the rule changes but at the end of the day those people complaning are only TOURISTS on a temporary stay and cannot expect a country to change its laws to suit 'tourists'.

How many long term 'tourists' are there? I am sure that those long term 'tourists' are a minority compared to the tourists who come here on their vacation and then go home, so I cannot see how their disapearance will have much effect on any economy.

I dont really care to be honest as I will be upfront with the proper authorities and pay taxes as necessary. If the laws change and I am unable to stay then I will sell up and go else where. Thailand is not the end all and be all.

If you are not eligible for a 'long term' Visa then sorry but youll have to go, end of.

Having proclaimed your ignorance of basic macro-economics and desire to remain in blissful ignorance, it behooves you to cease your pontifications about subject matter of which you are painfully and admittedly ignorant.

Your opinion about what constitutes a "tourist" is that, an opinion (i do not necessarily disagree btw)

You terrorism comment is illogical to put it mildly - please try Logic 101 at your nearest community college.

Your desire to pay taxes is admirable, though largely misplaced in Thailand - probably due to some childhood problem growing up in Scandinavia or some such place. The idea that "economic benefit = pay tax" is not a universal truism or a logical necessity.

The number of 30day visa-runner residents is very substantial and their contribution to local economy is significant. And remember, almost all of these people know a great deal more about the way the Kingdom operates than your average 14 day tourist.

As others have pointed out - the reason that 30 day visa-runner residents exist is because there is NO ADEQUATE VISA for the reasonably well heeled sub-50yo wishing to retire in Thailand, and for those over 50, the hassle and cost has been seen as far greater than the result, especially as Thai authorities have de-facto and/or explicitly accepted the model for decades. Many of the 30 day people will convert, but there will be a group for whom no adequate way to remain legally in the country will exist and their loss will be a net loss to the economy.

Sure, there are some wanting to be below the radar, they will have to find another shallow, but for most, it is just a great deal of hassle that they would rather be without.

It is also well to remember, farangs have almost no rights, we get nothing for free, and we pay "farang-price" for everything. 1 farang is not the economic equal of 1 thai - nor is the equal in legal terms - just ask Steve Millers family !

If Thais really succeed in implementing their xenophobic tendencies and driving the farangs away, it will be to the detriment of their economy - peiod. Same goes for every other developing nation. We have the wealth, capital knows no boundries, and we can vote with our feet.

That being said, I personally do not have a big problem with the 90/180 rule - its a pain, but I can live with it.

DrDweeb, please excuse me for butting into your disagreement with Phil. I must say, your mastery of written English is quite impressive. Your understanding of Thai macroeconomics is IMHO lacking. These thoughts are not original as they were provided me by a gentleman who became a Deputy Prime Minister. In fact, these thoughts were provided me over 30 years ago and are totally relevent today. This is a all about a socio-economic class struggle. Poor Issan Thais being empowered by Farang dollars. A gradual but quite real anomoly. The Thai urban professional does not want his next door neighbor to be an Issan farm girl with a half farang baby. And they certainly do not want to pay Farang prices for their new home.

I will bite my lip and leave the "class struggle" bit alone.

You are suggesting that (1) Isaan is receiving a disprportionate amount of the economic benefits through tourist dollars. (2) That this imbalance, is benefitting the poorest part of Thailand more, and that this bad because (3) the Bangkok urbans (who also benefit generally want the Isaan folks to stay in Isaan where they belong so they can get on with business as usual ??

Hmm, that sounds a less than compassioate macro view. Perhaps it indicates a fundamental problem in Thai society that deserves a thread of its own ?

Some unstructured thoughts ...

The influx of tourist dollars helps everyone in Thailand at all levels. (Evidence what happenned in the Tsunami aftermath, until tourism picked up again) True, many "Isaan girls" earn their money in the tourist industry (not all are bargirls or worse, the tourist destinations are litterred with honest hard working girls from the outer provices who do the grunt work for very little pay) and take that money and spend it on new homes in Isaan, send money home (all of them do I think) or buy clothes in Bangkok shops. Lots work in the Bangkok factories, shops etc. and other industry too I might add.

So these Isaan girls earn some money, learn english, study whatever and try to get ahead, almost always with the goal of helping the family. This is bad ??

In my experience Thais spend money, they do not save it, so the money never leaves circulation.

I would posit that most imported currency spent by long term "tourists" is not spent on the personal services of Isaan girls (I may be wrong - but that is not my experience) and thus is spent directly into the local expat economies (Pattaya, Bangkok, Phuket, Hua Hin, Chiang Mai etc. etc.). The long term "tourists" constitute a permanent base of people from whom foreign income is placed in Thailand, never to be removed. Their influence on the (oh shit I have to write it) "socio-economic class struggle" is no different than any other tourist, except they spend money 365days a year. So I repeat that the Thai economy is and has long been, very dependent on tourist dollars.

Thailand will not cease to exist if all the 30day visa residents left en masse. But local ecomies would suffer extensively.

Housing prices are determined by supply and demand. There seems to be oversupply of every level of housing in Bangkok - just some casual empricism on my part though.

That was a bit unstructured (I have jetlag), but I am sure you get the drift.

ciao

Dweeb

[LivinLOS]

DrDweeb, please excuse me for butting into your disagreement with Phil. I must say, your mastery of written English is quite impressive. Your understanding of Thai macroeconomics is IMHO lacking. These thoughts are not original as they were provided me by a gentleman who became a Deputy Prime Minister. In fact, these thoughts were provided me over 30 years ago and are totally relevent today. This is a all about a socio-economic class struggle. Poor Issan Thais being empowered by Farang dollars. A gradual but quite real anomoly. The Thai urban professional does not want his next door neighbor to be an Issan farm girl with a half farang baby. And they certainly do not want to pay Farang prices for their new home.

So now the new 90/180 visa exempt rule is a conspiracy by the Thai elite to keep the Issan farm girls down?

Excuse me while I

TH

While this rule is (probably) not part of some secret backroom plot by a cabal of Thai Chinese overlords, it would appear to me that the farang influence does seem to be breaking down (slowly) a more class based system and it would also seem obvious that those higher up in the class system would prefer to remain that way.

[LivinLOS]

(clue.. Get a second passport.. wow that was tough)..

Get a second passport and use that! These are definitely the words of a genius! How many people who do not have dual nationality can get a second passport legally? 'Lose' your passport and then file a false police report, a false declaration to your embassy and pick up your new passport. Then, because you still have your old passport with the entry stamp in it, use it to leave the country. That, as I said before, is a touch of genius and now all you have to do is explain why you are leaving the country on a VOID passport.

I cannot speak for other nationalities, but the British government will issue a second passport,

if you can justify the need.

1. Travelling to one country, and then to a second the does not recognise the first. Say Israel, then needing to visit an arab country.

2. Need to trave whilst your passport is with an embassy to obtain a visa.

There may be other acceptable reasons.

A friend who works for a major newspaper has no less that 7 UK passports.

I tried number 2 with the Australian Embassy. Try spending the 5 working days a week in some country, say Karlsruhe DE., being a resident of Sweden, living i Nörreköping and travelling home every weekend. Now you wish to obtain a visa to ANY Easter Eiropean country. The passport needs to be surrendered in the country of residence or the country of issue for the visa.

This clearly should warrant the issue of an extra passport. The Australian Embassy told me to f***off and if I wanted a visa to Russia (job related in fact), then that was my problem and I should just go sit in Sweden for how ever long it too the Russians to issue it.

The 2 passport thing is OK for the UK folks, but personal experience tells me it is essentially impossible for aussies.

Dweeb

Sorry to hear its so tough of Ozzies that way..

I know quite a few guys in the oil industry on rotation and they all have 2 passports.. Canadian, UK and Northern Euro mostly..

[taxexile]

In order for true progress to made, the gov't has to first eliminate the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce. Only then will luk krung offspring have an opportunity to practice and build their work ethic in a farang controlled environment. Until then, most are destined to be assimilated, exported, or worse yet: thrown into the entertainment industry meat grinder. The empowerment, as of now, ends when the pension payments stop coming or when the farang patriarch/matriarch dies.

spot on.

so long as the kids watch daddy doing nothing all day except chugging beer and watching dvd's what chance do they have.

[LivinLOS]

This is a all about a socio-economic class struggle. Poor Issan Thais being empowered by Farang dollars. A gradual but quite real anomoly.

Tolerant of the well to do gay, katoey, Indian, Sikh, etc.... but the line drawn at the empowered Issan housewife/husband of a farang? IMO, no.

As for the "anomaly," IMO the 'empowerment' is typically very short lived. I see it all the time with Issan wives and some husbands of farangs coming to us with title deeds -paid for by farangs- for collateral on non-business related loans (more often consumption related). The work ethic and responsibility just isn't there yet. The enrichment (again just IMO) is by no means generational. It's more akin to pouring funds with little guidance or opportunity into a typical American ghetto or barrio.

In order for true progress to made, the gov't has to first eliminate the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce. Only then will luk krung offspring have an opportunity to practice and build their work ethic in a farang controlled environment. Until then, most are destined to be assimilated, exported, or worse yet: thrown into the entertainment industry meat grinder. The empowerment, as of now, ends when the pension payments stop coming or when the farang patriarch/matriarch dies.

A very good post..

Though while I agree with it in many ways whether or not that empowerment is long lived or not may not be the issue.. In a socio economic point does it matter which issanite gains ?? As long as the poorer level or society in general gains ??

Thai society is very class based IMO.. Right from language and greetings and phu yai / phu noi relations etc.. And I dont think it is unfair to suggest that farang money spent probably benefits lower parts of society more directly than the rest.. This IS a destabalizing factor even if it is not really a long lived phenomenon.. Each dollar sent back to issan still runs around the issan economy whether its spent on investment or lao khao. I agree with you 100% that if its used wisely it will raise thier standard of living faster and more securely then if its pissed against the wall but it all filters through.

[Pakboong]

This is a all about a socio-economic class struggle. Poor Issan Thais being empowered by Farang dollars. A gradual but quite real anomoly.

Tolerant of the well to do gay, katoey, Indian, Sikh, etc.... but the line drawn at the empowered Issan housewife/husband of a farang? IMO, no.

As for the "anomaly," IMO the 'empowerment' is typically very short lived. I see it all the time with Issan wives and some husbands of farangs coming to us with title deeds -paid for by farangs- for collateral on non-business related loans (more often consumption related). The work ethic and responsibility just isn't there yet. The enrichment (again just IMO) is by no means generational. It's more akin to pouring funds with little guidance or opportunity into a typical American ghetto or barrio.

In order for true progress to made, the gov't has to first eliminate the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce. Only then will luk krung offspring have an opportunity to practice and build their work ethic in a farang controlled environment. Until then, most are destined to be assimilated, exported, or worse yet: thrown into the entertainment industry meat grinder. The empowerment, as of now, ends when the pension payments stop coming or when the farang patriarch/matriarch dies.

Again, these weren't my original thoughts but they seem to fit the situation.

Restrictions on foreign owned mega-stores

No new investment visas for foreigners.

Restrictions on past real estate practices

Strict enforcement of the tourist rules aimed at tourists trying to reside in Thailand

Restrictions on the Marriage extension. Knowing that Thai Spouse and children will likely be adversely affected.

Rooting out English teachers without work permits.

All of these new considerations of old laws came about in a very short time span. I seriously don't think Thaksin was in favor of any of them. Another story. It appeared that the opposition adjenda was shoe horned into place when the end became apparent. Lots of well paid politicians fighting to save their jobs.

If this had anything to do with money in the public pockets, the 30 day stamp would simply be accomplished in the local immigration office indefinitly at any price they wanted to charge.

I am not casting stones here. My Thai GF is from Issan and I am helping her raise her 5 year old daughter.

[Pakboong]

I dont need your advice about economics thanks as I am not interested in it. I am talking about 'the so called 'tourists' who may contribute to the economy by spending money, however they are possibly evading paying taxes in Thailand and possibly their own countries simply by remaining as tourists.

Lets face it tourists are tourists and should expect to be treated respectfully in a foreign country but equally they should respect the country they are visiting by not trying to buck the system as so many do in Thailand and at last the rules are being tightened up.

No one ever heard of global terrorism? Any country with an open door policy is crazy.

I can understand why so many are upset with the rule changes but at the end of the day those people complaning are only TOURISTS on a temporary stay and cannot expect a country to change its laws to suit 'tourists'.

How many long term 'tourists' are there? I am sure that those long term 'tourists' are a minority compared to the tourists who come here on their vacation and then go home, so I cannot see how their disapearance will have much effect on any economy.

I dont really care to be honest as I will be upfront with the proper authorities and pay taxes as necessary. If the laws change and I am unable to stay then I will sell up and go else where. Thailand is not the end all and be all.

If you are not eligible for a 'long term' Visa then sorry but youll have to go, end of.

Having proclaimed your ignorance of basic macro-economics and desire to remain in blissful ignorance, it behooves you to cease your pontifications about subject matter of which you are painfully and admittedly ignorant.

Your opinion about what constitutes a "tourist" is that, an opinion (i do not necessarily disagree btw)

You terrorism comment is illogical to put it mildly - please try Logic 101 at your nearest community college.

Your desire to pay taxes is admirable, though largely misplaced in Thailand - probably due to some childhood problem growing up in Scandinavia or some such place. The idea that "economic benefit = pay tax" is not a universal truism or a logical necessity.

The number of 30day visa-runner residents is very substantial and their contribution to local economy is significant. And remember, almost all of these people know a great deal more about the way the Kingdom operates than your average 14 day tourist.

As others have pointed out - the reason that 30 day visa-runner residents exist is because there is NO ADEQUATE VISA for the reasonably well heeled sub-50yo wishing to retire in Thailand, and for those over 50, the hassle and cost has been seen as far greater than the result, especially as Thai authorities have de-facto and/or explicitly accepted the model for decades. Many of the 30 day people will convert, but there will be a group for whom no adequate way to remain legally in the country will exist and their loss will be a net loss to the economy.

Sure, there are some wanting to be below the radar, they will have to find another shallow, but for most, it is just a great deal of hassle that they would rather be without.

It is also well to remember, farangs have almost no rights, we get nothing for free, and we pay "farang-price" for everything. 1 farang is not the economic equal of 1 thai - nor is the equal in legal terms - just ask Steve Millers family !

If Thais really succeed in implementing their xenophobic tendencies and driving the farangs away, it will be to the detriment of their economy - peiod. Same goes for every other developing nation. We have the wealth, capital knows no boundries, and we can vote with our feet.

That being said, I personally do not have a big problem with the 90/180 rule - its a pain, but I can live with it.

DrDweeb, please excuse me for butting into your disagreement with Phil. I must say, your mastery of written English is quite impressive. Your understanding of Thai macroeconomics is IMHO lacking. These thoughts are not original as they were provided me by a gentleman who became a Deputy Prime Minister. In fact, these thoughts were provided me over 30 years ago and are totally relevent today. This is a all about a socio-economic class struggle. Poor Issan Thais being empowered by Farang dollars. A gradual but quite real anomoly. The Thai urban professional does not want his next door neighbor to be an Issan farm girl with a half farang baby. And they certainly do not want to pay Farang prices for their new home.

I will bite my lip and leave the "class struggle" bit alone.

You are suggesting that (1) Isaan is receiving a disprportionate amount of the economic benefits through tourist dollars. (2) That this imbalance, is benefitting the poorest part of Thailand more, and that this bad because (3) the Bangkok urbans (who also benefit generally want the Isaan folks to stay in Isaan where they belong so they can get on with business as usual ??

Hmm, that sounds a less than compassioate macro view. Perhaps it indicates a fundamental problem in Thai society that deserves a thread of its own ?

Some unstructured thoughts ...

The influx of tourist dollars helps everyone in Thailand at all levels. (Evidence what happenned in the Tsunami aftermath, until tourism picked up again) True, many "Isaan girls" earn their money in the tourist industry (not all are bargirls or worse, the tourist destinations are litterred with honest hard working girls from the outer provices who do the grunt work for very little pay) and take that money and spend it on new homes in Isaan, send money home (all of them do I think) or buy clothes in Bangkok shops. Lots work in the Bangkok factories, shops etc. and other industry too I might add.

So these Isaan girls earn some money, learn english, study whatever and try to get ahead, almost always with the goal of helping the family. This is bad ??

In my experience Thais spend money, they do not save it, so the money never leaves circulation.

I would posit that most imported currency spent by long term "tourists" is not spent on the personal services of Isaan girls (I may be wrong - but that is not my experience) and thus is spent directly into the local expat economies (Pattaya, Bangkok, Phuket, Hua Hin, Chiang Mai etc. etc.). The long term "tourists" constitute a permanent base of people from whom foreign income is placed in Thailand, never to be removed. Their influence on the (oh shit I have to write it) "socio-economic class struggle" is no different than any other tourist, except they spend money 365days a year. So I repeat that the Thai economy is and has long been, very dependent on tourist dollars.

Thailand will not cease to exist if all the 30day visa residents left en masse. But local ecomies would suffer extensively.

Housing prices are determined by supply and demand. There seems to be oversupply of every level of housing in Bangkok - just some casual empricism on my part though.

That was a bit unstructured (I have jetlag), but I am sure you get the drift.

ciao

Dweeb

Dweeb, I do enjoy your thoughts. I did not mean to suggest that the practice of empowering the poor was bad. Just real. I married my first Issan girl in 1975 and I am now with another full time so I think it is very shortsided. But, very real. Perception is reality here.

[billd766]

In order for true progress to made, the gov't has to first eliminate the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce. Only then will luk krung offspring have an opportunity to practice and build their work ethic in a farang controlled environment. Until then, most are destined to be assimilated, exported, or worse yet: thrown into the entertainment industry meat grinder. The empowerment, as of now, ends when the pension payments stop coming or when the farang patriarch/matriarch dies.

spot on.

so long as the kids watch daddy doing nothing all day except chugging beer and watching dvd's what chance do they have.

Actually this daddy doesn't chug beers all day but works a little in keeping the house and farm running. He has 2 or 3 Sang Som/soda/coke in the evening and the only videos he watches are ones like Kang Koi the elephant, Bob the builder and the like with his 2 1/2 year old son.

When he dies his pensions, though reduced will keep flowing until his wife pops her clogs as it were.

He is also not the only farang who lives this way though he does live upcountry (legally) and away from the fleshpots and temptations that used to attract him.

He also loves his son dearly and would like the best he can for his little boy.

Or perhaps he is one of the exceptions to the rules?

[taxexile]

i certainly wasn't referring to you billd766 !

[jetzie]

Yes, you are right on that, Jetzie. As long as you can convice the Thai consulate that you are a genuine tourist and do not work illegally in Thailand you can get a tourist visa every 6 months. But how will you make them believe that you are living in Thailand as a tourist for years on end?

--

Maestro

i'm a singaporean, looks from the case that when you're in your home country, you wouldnt have much problems recieving tourist visas?

so for me i could arrive in bangkok with a single 60days, and after the extention carry on with border runs, after which i can just return to my country (not that far and cheap if planned ahead with budget airlines) to get a tourist visa.

am i right on that ?

//Edited by Maestro

Theoretically, yes, but your home country is so close and so easily accessible with the low-cost airlines, why mess around with making border runs from Bangkok? Or was this simply a rhetorical question?

thanks for the reply maestro, as for the border run, it would be more cost efficient to do that once in a while as it might be cheaper to do a border run when i near up-north

Edited December 17, 2006 by jetzie

[papakapbaan]

In order for true progress to made, the gov't has to first eliminate the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce. Only then will luk krung offspring have an opportunity to practice and build their work ethic in a farang controlled environment. Until then, most are destined to be assimilated, exported, or worse yet: thrown into the entertainment industry meat grinder. The empowerment, as of now, ends when the pension payments stop coming or when the farang patriarch/matriarch dies.

It is SO obvious.

Now, Heng, will you tell us your stand honestly?? Cynism or what??

Please spread the word amongst your peers on the "elimination of the many laws restricting farang participation in local industry and commerce", thanks!

WITH REFERENCE TO MANY POSTS ABOVE (even if we stray): THE SINO-THAI RULING CLASS WON'T BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN THE "STATUS QUO" MUCH LONGER.

ASSIMILATION OF INCREASED FOREIGN POPULATIONS (INCLUDING WHITE ROUND EYED FOREIGNERS) WILL HAVE TO HAPPEN IN THE LOS, as it is happening and will happen everywhere else.

No matter what new backwards movements the old "elite" has in store, it's already an Old Guard battle they are waging!

(BTW: Who is not I absolutely convinced that a lot of the troubles Farangs experience with their visa situation can be DIRECTLY related to the XENOPHOBIA of the Sino-Thai ruling class???)

[Phil_Pattaya]

In a few of the posters opinions the thai economy would suffer if the 30 day visa runners left on masse. This would probably not happen all at once so the effect would possibly not be as bad as predicted but It would be interesting to have a rough estimate of how many foreigners actually do live in Thailand on 30 day visas. Do the Thai authorities even know how many live like this and do they even contemplate the damage that they may be creating for themselves? I very much doubt it.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Because the concept of "equal protection under the law" is a modern principle of international human rights that discourages government action which discriminates on the basis of race, religion, etc., including socio-economic status.

Rexall, if I understand you correctly you are saying that everybody with a low socio-economic status in his home country should be allowed to freely enter your country and enjoy the benefits of the better economy in your country. If this is what you are saying, are you really serious?

--

Maestro

Well, no, not exactly. What I said was that governments ought to take care in enacting policy that discriminates against people because of their socio-economic status, just as they ought to take care in enacting policy that discriminates on the basis of race, religion, gender. Most people would be eager to agree with that abstraction, but actually applying it and dealing the the messy reality may be another story.

It's complicated. I assume by "your country" you meant "my country" which happens to be the U.S. And America is completely schizophrenic and awful about immigration. As Krub points out, the U.S. is draconian when Thais try to obtain a visa legally. However, once

they do manage to get in, by hook or by crook, joining the ranks of an estimated 12 million (12,000,000 !!!) so called "illegals" (or "undocumented" depending on your politics) they can remain indefinitely at very little risk of being punished or deported. Any children they birth will be citizens. Aside from the benefits they may accrue, it cannot be very comfortable living in some twilight zone of legality. Regardless of anyone's feelings or opinions, I suspect that sooner or later, these 12 million will have to be granted some kind of legal status whether you call it "amnesty" or "path to citizenship" or whatever.

The fact is that as globalization increases and patterns of migration become more dynamic, there is a natural pressure for international borders to become more porous. Governments will either recognize that reality and respond intelligently . . . or they won't. Tourists are wanted. Cheap labor is wanted. Investment is wanted. But governments may not be able to attract and accommodate those assets without giving up some control of the process, like it or not. Years ago when I was in between visas, I did my sequential visa runs for a few months. It gets old really quick. I couldn't imagine doing that indefinitely. But if someone chooses to live like that, so what? Who does it hurt? And although I doubt that Thailand would shrivel up and blow away without visa running resident tourists, these people do spend money and pay taxes, possibly support a family, and that's all to the good. What's the big deal? What exactly is the supposed "abuse" that some get so upset about? I think you would be hard pressed to find anything at all . . . except that authority doesn't like to be challenged.

This is a bogus issue. Leave the resident tourists along, they aren't hurting anyone.

Aloha,

Rex

" Resident Tourists "

[anon467367354]

Sorry to be so pedantic on this wonderful sunny morn. I have seen the term 'western farang', is there such a thing as an 'eastern farang'?

A farang is a white person.

The Thai consider the Mexicans, Spanish, Portugese, Brazilians, Greek, Russian, Czech, whatever etc falang. Actually most are amazed when I show them pictures of the Cubans or Mexicans and how much they look like the Thai! The South Americans looks very much like the Thai with a slightly different nose, but then again all Thai certainly don't have the same nose. The term falang is nothing more than ignorance, it doesn't mean foreigner, it means pretty much the same as the "N" word did in the United States years ago.