Thai wife refused entry on Thai passport?

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, dentonian said:

In the situations posted, they haven't been refused entry, but allowed entry using their second nationality passports.

I think the correct would be forced to use their other passport. It is simple don't allow them to do that.

The have to allow a Thai to enter using their Thai passport.

 

[dentonian]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The have to allow a Thai to enter using their Thai passport.

If the constitution was worded as the above, then it wouldn't be a problem

 

The problem is that once a foreign passport was wrongly used to exit or enter by a Thai national, regardless of blame, Immigration don't appear to know how to resolve the issue.

The Thai national in effect, is still registered on their database as entering as a foreigner.

Edited April 18, 2017 by dentonian

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, dentonian said:

If the constitution was worded as the above, then it wouldn't be a problem

 

The problem is that once a foreign passport was wrongly used to exit or enter by a Thai national, regardless of blame, Immigration don't appear to know how to resolve the issue.

The Thai national in effect, is still registered on their database as entering as a foreigner.

If they enter on a a foreign passport they have to leave on it. After they leave on it they can re-enter on their Thai passport.

[dentonian]

On ‎18‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 4:40 PM, ubonjoe said:

If they enter on a a foreign passport they have to leave on it. After they leave on it they can re-enter on their Thai passport.

If they leave on a foreign passport they are being forced to enter on it again. This is the problem.

 

When a Thai leaves on a foreign passport, the exit stamp goes in the foreign passport. The departure card number and the foreign passport number are recorded in their Immigration database.

When the Thai tries to re-enter on a Thai passport, their is no exit stamp in the passport, neither does that passport number link to their arrival card number. They cannot be found on the database. How did they manage to exit?

 

Once they establish they left on a foreign passport, they insist the same passport is used to enter, because they can now match the arrival card number, passport number and the exit stamp with their database. There appears to be no procedure or know how  to correct these types of error.

So a Thai is allowed to enter, but recorded as a foreigner under Immigration control.

 

No definitive solution to this problem has yet been established.

[Evilbaz]

30 minutes ago, dentonian said:

If they leave on a foreign passport they are being forced to enter on it again. This is the problem.

 

When a Thai leaves on a foreign passport, the exit stamp goes in the foreign passport. The departure card number and the foreign passport number are recorded in their Immigration database.

When the Thai tries to re-enter on a Thai passport, their is no exit stamp in the passport, neither does that passport number link to their arrival card number. They cannot be found on the database. How did they manage to exit?

 

Once they establish they left on a foreign passport, they insist the same passport is used to enter, because they can now match the arrival card number, passport number and the exit stamp with their database. There appears to be no procedure or know how  to correct these types of error.

So a Thai is allowed to enter, but recorded as a foreigner under Immigration control.

 

No definitive solution to this problem has yet been established.

The departure card which is the back half of the entry card, issued on arrival, is cancelled on departure.

If leaving on a Thai passport a departure card is filled out on departure and cancelled on arrival.

This is the opposite procedure to entering on a foreign passport.

[ubonjoe]

59 minutes ago, dentonian said:

If they leave on a foreign passport they are being forced to enter on it again. This is the problem.

That is a problem because people allow it to happen. If they stood up to immigration it would not happen since there is no rule or regulation to support the denial.

You apparently have been given wrong info it you think there is any basis for a denial of entry for a Thai using their Thai passport because they departed on a foreign passport.

I have read many topics and posts about this over many years now and in almost every case I can recall if the person refused to be stamped in on their foreign passport they were allowed to enter on their Thai passport.

I have advised people to ask immigration for a written formal denial of entry on their Thai passport if they have a problem. I can assure it would not be given and that person would enter on their Thai passport.

[dentonian]

1 hour ago, Evilbaz said:

The departure card which is the back half of the entry card, issued on arrival, is cancelled on departure.

If leaving on a Thai passport a departure card is filled out on departure and cancelled on arrival.

This is the opposite procedure to entering on a foreign passport.

Read what Joe stated and my reply.

If they entered on a foreign passport they would complete an arrival card, thus depart on the departure card.

When they try to re-enter on a Thai passport there is no record of them leaving on a Thai passport,

On ‎18‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 4:40 PM, ubonjoe said:

If they enter on a a foreign passport they have to leave on it. After they leave on it they can re-enter on their Thai passport.

 

[Eff1n2ret]

As has been stated earlier somewhere in this thread, the problem probably arises because when an IO is confronted with a Thai entering Thailand with a passport for which there is no record of a previous departure in the database. There may or may not be some means of processing such an arrival, but the IO either can not remember what to do or has not had the training - so he takes the easy way out and stamps the passenger in as a foreign visitor.

 

There must be some procedure for entering Thai citizens where they can't find a record of the departure. During my time in Immigration Enforcement in the UK I occasionally dealt with Thai citizens arrested as illegals who posessed no i/d. At interview they'd tell you some story of how they came to be in the UK, whether it was true or not* really didn't matter, you just served a notice on them as  a 'NELE' (No evidence of lawful entry) and set removal directions. You made out a travel document, a single sheet proforma
bearing a photo and whatever the detainee supplied as their name and address in Thailand, which, again, may have been a complete fiction. They were never returned by the Thai authorities, to whom they must have been able to establish their bone fides as a Thai citizen, even though the means by which they had originally travelled from Thailand may not have been verifiable.
*(It's only more recently that fingerprinting for visas was introduced, hence one could rarely verify the identity given.)

 

The OP's wife, according to the stamp in her British passport, will in a few days become an "overstayer" - what nonsense. If she chooses to stay in Thailand, absolutely nothing will happen to her, and the stamp in that passport is an irrelevance. If she wants to put the system to the test, I would suggest she books a flight to a neighbouring country where she can easily travel on her Thai passport, and leaves her UK passport at home. I'm willing to bet she has no problem, and if challenged she could deny having any other passport, particularly if the OP is not travelling with her.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Eff1n2ret

[JimGant]

When this situation happened years ago -- when the wife decided to start using her Thai passport -- the honest explanation to the IO about dual citizenship, having left on her US passport, caused no problem. He made some kind of notation in her Thai passport. BUT, just to be safe, her US passport was with me -- so she could honestly say she didn't have it, had she been confronted.

[stevenl]

55 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

As has been stated earlier somewhere in this thread, the problem probably arises because when an IO is confronted with a Thai entering Thailand with a passport for which there is no record of a previous departure in the database. There may or may not be some means of processing such an arrival, but the IO either can not remember what to do or has not had the training - so he takes the easy way out and stamps the passenger in as a foreign visitor.

 

There must be some procedure for entering Thai citizens where they can't find a record of the departure. During my time in Immigration Enforcement in the UK I occasionally dealt with Thai citizens arrested as illegals who posessed no i/d. At interview they'd tell you some story of how they came to be in the UK, whether it was true or not* really didn't matter, you just served a notice on them as  a 'NELE' (No evidence of lawful entry) and set removal directions. You made out a travel document, a single sheet proforma
bearing a photo and whatever the detainee supplied as their name and address in Thailand, which, again, may have been a complete fiction. They were never returned by the Thai authorities, to whom they must have been able to establish their bone fides as a Thai citizen, even though the means by which they had originally travelled from Thailand may not have been verifiable.
*(It's only more recently that fingerprinting for visas was introduced, hence one could rarely verify the identity given.)

 

The OP's wife, according to the stamp in her British passport, will in a few days become an "overstayer" - what nonsense. If she chooses to stay in Thailand, absolutely nothing will happen to her, and the stamp in that passport is an irrelevance. If she wants to put the system to the test, I would suggest she books a flight to a neighbouring country where she can easily travel on her Thai passport, and leaves her UK passport at home. I'm willing to bet she has no problem, and if challenged she could deny having any other passport, particularly if the OP is not travelling with her.

If she leaves her UK passport at home she will not be allowed to leave Thailand.

[Mattd]

8 minutes ago, stevenl said:

If she leaves her UK passport at home she will not be allowed to leave Thailand.

I'm not so sure that is correct, if she is still currently in Thailand, then she should be able to travel out on her Thai Passport, there should be no reason why not, as stated on several posts, she is Thai, so is quite entitled to travel on her Thai passport, it could well be that immigration will make the link between her entry in to Thailand on her British passport, however, this should not stop her from using her Thai passport to go for a short local trip, even better still if it was to a neighbouring country that Thai's do not require a visa for but Brits do.

I think what Eff1n2ret is implying is to make this trip out on the Thai passport and then if and when she finally departs back to the UK, then to go out on her Thai passport and just forget the entry on her British passport, at the end of the day she is Thai and by definition cannot overstay, so long as she never uses or produces her British passport in Thailand again, then what repercussions could there possibly be?

It is, as Joe suggests, a case of being strong with immigration and standing up to them, they had absolutely no right to refuse her entry in to Thailand on her Thai passport whatsoever, she is Thai by birth and has the right of abode and also the right to travel with a valid Thai passport.

A Thai arriving at a Thai border with an expired passport should have no issues in getting back in to Thailand, the lady had a valid Thai passport that had been renewed overseas, unfortunately she did not have the old original one with her to prove her departure before, if, as folks think, the Thai immigration system is 'smart' enough to link people to different passports, then surely it should have identified and linked her new passport to her old passport and therefore the original exit, in fact if the Thai passport renewal system was 'smart' enough, then when she renewed her passport, that link should have been made automatically, regardless of where it was renewed?

[dentonian]

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That is a problem because people allow it to happen. If they stood up to immigration it would not happen since there is no rule or regulation to support the denial.

You apparently have been given wrong info it you think there is any basis for a denial of entry for a Thai using their Thai passport because they departed on a foreign passport.

I have read many topics and posts about this over many years now and in almost every case I can recall if the person refused to be stamped in on their foreign passport they were allowed to enter on their Thai passport.

I have advised people to ask immigration for a written formal denial of entry on their Thai passport if they have a problem. I can assure it would not be given and that person would enter on their Thai passport.

In theory you are correct.

However very few Thais will stand up or question an IO, or any government official. They don't like confrontation or loss of face.

If they left Thailand using their foreign passport, then they made the initial mistake.

 

Immigration will point to this fact and use it against them, perhaps because they don't know what to do in this situation, but in any event they don't and cannot refuse entry to a Thai national........they just allow entry on the foreign passport which makes their job easier.

I doubt a Thai would be sufficiently aware of their own laws as a base of argument.

 

Theory is one thing, fact is another, and as already demonstrated in this thread, their are Thais who have fallen foul of this ridiculous situation and have been forced to enter on their foreign passport. If the passport number, arrival card number don't match what's in their database then Immigration are as much use as a wet lettuce.

[dentonian]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

If she leaves her UK passport at home she will not be allowed to leave Thailand.

 

1 hour ago, Mattd said:

I'm not so sure that is correct, if she is still currently in Thailand, then she should be able to travel out on her Thai Passport, there should be no reason why not, as stated on several posts, she is Thai, so is quite entitled to travel on her Thai passport,

Thais don't need a passport to visit neighbouring Countries. ID card is sufficient.

 

stevenl was referring to not being able to return to the UK.

The airline wouldn't allow check-in if she didn't have a UK passport, or UK Visa in her Thai passport.

 

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, dentonian said:

Thais don't need a passport to visit neighbouring Countries. ID card is sufficient.

That is only possible at some border crossings. It cannot be done by air.

[Mattd]

26 minutes ago, dentonian said:

stevenl was referring to not being able to return to the UK.

The airline wouldn't allow check-in if she didn't have a UK passport, or UK Visa in her Thai passport.

If stevenl was indeed referring to departing Thailand back to the UK, then I agree, of course she would absolutely have to have the British passport with her, not only for checking in at BKK but also for clearing immigration back in to the UK, that is a given.

His reply however was to a suggestion of leaving Thailand on her Thai passport to another neighbouring country and as it quoted the whole topic, then it is not specific enough to nail it down.

[IMA_FARANG]

A valid Thai passport can be issued to a Thai citizen in another country at the Thai embassy there.

That passport will have no exit stamp in it because it will be issued in the foreign country at the Thai embassy/consulate there.

A Thai can legally enter Thailand on an expired Thai passport. .

In the same way a U.S. citizen can get a new U.S. passport in the U.S. embassy in Bangkok, and a U.K. citizen can get  a new or replacement U.K passport at the U.K. embassy in  Thailand , a Thai legally  in the U.S or the U.K. can get a new or replacement Thai passport from a Thai consulate in those countries and enter Thailand on those passports.

It is done all the time.

 

 

 

 

[dentonian]

25 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is only possible at some border crossings. It cannot be done by air.

Thais don't need a passport to visit most neighbouring Countries by land. ID card is sufficient.

[Mattd]

1 minute ago, IMA_FARANG said:

A valid Thai passport can be issued to a Thai citizen in another country at the Thai embassy there.

That passport will have no exit stamp in it because it will be issued in the foreign country at the Thai embassy/consulate there.

A Thai can legally enter Thailand on an expired Thai passport. .

In the same way a U.S. citizen can get a new U.S. passport in the U.S. embassy in Bangkok, and a U.K. citizen can get  a new or replacement U.K passport at the U.K. embassy in  Thailand , a Thai legally  in the U.S or the U.K. can get a new or replacement Thai passport from a Thai consulate in those countries and enter Thailand on those passports.

It is done all the time.

 

 

 

 

100% agree, except in this case the IO refused (wrongly) her entry on her Thai passport specifically because of it being a new one issued by an Embassy.

There really should be a way, in the passport / immigration systems, of being able to track this, so that everything ties together, the only limitation I suppose is time, i.e. the length of time needed to keep the records, in the case of Thailand, this really should not be difficult considering the passports are only valid for 5 years.

[dentonian]

4 minutes ago, IMA_FARANG said:

A valid Thai passport can be issued to a Thai citizen in another country at the Thai embassy there.

That passport will have no exit stamp in it because it will be issued in the foreign country at the Thai embassy/consulate there.

A Thai can legally enter Thailand on an expired Thai passport. .

In the same way a U.S. citizen can get a new U.S. passport in the U.S. embassy in Bangkok, and a U.K. citizen can get  a new or replacement U.K passport at the U.K. embassy in  Thailand , a Thai legally  in the U.S or the U.K. can get a new or replacement Thai passport from a Thai consulate in those countries and enter Thailand on those passports.

It is done all the time.

 

 

 

 

In that situation, the Thai should carry both passports.

 

[Mattd]

1 minute ago, dentonian said:

In that situation, the Thai should carry both passports.

 

Yes, this, sadly, seems to be the case as it stands now, unfortunately she did not, so could not produce the old passport, doesn't deflect from the fact that she is Thai and they should not have refused her entry on her Thai passport, as per my above post, what is difficult to create the software that automatically links the old passport number with the new, so when a Thai in a similar situation enters Thailand then the IO will see this link and the previous exit from Thailand as soon as the new passport details are entered in to the system at arrivals? With the new e-gate systems being used, then it stands to reason that this process must happen, otherwise any Thai renewing their passport anywhere but Thailand would not be able to get in via an e-gate?

 

We are told that Immigration link old and new passports together by name and DOB for Foreigners, hence why getting a new passport is useless if somebody has a poor record immigration wise, hell, if they can do it it for us, surely they can do this for their own people!

[dentonian]

8 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Yes, this, sadly, seems to be the case as it stands now, unfortunately she did not, so could not produce the old passport, doesn't deflect from the fact that she is Thai and they should not have refused her entry on her Thai passport, as per my above post, what is difficult to create the software that automatically links the old passport number with the new, so when a Thai in a similar situation enters Thailand then the IO will see this link and the previous exit from Thailand as soon as the new passport details are entered in to the system at arrivals? With the new e-gate systems being used, then it stands to reason that this process must happen, otherwise any Thai renewing their passport anywhere but Thailand would not be able to get in via an e-gate?

 

We are told that Immigration link old and new passports together by name and DOB for Foreigners, hence why getting a new passport is useless if somebody has a poor record immigration wise, hell, if they can do it it for us, surely they can do this for their own people!

Even with a Thai e-passport, it won't let you enter if you left on a foreign passport.

[Mattd]

6 minutes ago, dentonian said:

Even with a Thai e-passport, it won't let you enter if you left on a foreign passport.

You are missing my point, so let's take this as an example,

A Thai with dual nationality leaves Thailand on a Thai passport, via the e-gates, say a year ago, whilst away the original Thai passport expires, so a replacement Thai passport is issued by an overseas embassy, the same Thai now returns back to Thailand with this new Thai passport and tries to enter via the e-gate, would the system allow entry, would it have connected the two passports together?

[dentonian]

1 hour ago, Mattd said:

You are missing my point, so let's take this as an example,

A Thai with dual nationality leaves Thailand on a Thai passport, via the e-gates, say a year ago, whilst away the original Thai passport expires, so a replacement Thai passport is issued by an overseas embassy, the same Thai now returns back to Thailand with this new Thai passport and tries to enter via the e-gate, would the system allow entry, would it have connected the two passports together?

No, you would need to use the old passport you departed on.

The airline may want to see a valid travel document though, so may need the new passport.

Edited April 20, 2017 by dentonian

[Eff1n2ret]

4 hours ago, Mattd said:

I think what Eff1n2ret is implying is to make this trip out on the Thai passport and then if and when she finally departs back to the UK, then to go out on her Thai passport and just forget the entry on her British passport......

,....... the lady had a valid Thai passport that had been renewed overseas, ......

That is what I meant - effectively she tests the system by flying out of BKK to, say, Kuala Lumpur and exits by swiping her Thai passport through the gate at Suvarnabhumi and again when she returns from KL. That way the passport is "activated" with evidence of departure and re-entry, and she should never again give a Thai IO sight of her UK passport.

 

According to the OP, her passport was issued in Thailand on a previous occasion when she entered and left as a visitor on her UK passport. The problem arose this time when she arrived at Phuket, and perhaps if she does try to activate her Thai passport as I suggest, she should avoid Phuket in case she has the misfortune to run across the same idiot.

[dentonian]

13 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

That is what I meant - effectively she tests the system by flying out of BKK to, say, Kuala Lumpur and exits by swiping her Thai passport through the gate at Suvarnabhumi and again when she returns from KL. That way the passport is "activated" with evidence of departure and re-entry, and she should never again give a Thai IO sight of her UK passport.

 

According to the OP, her passport was issued in Thailand on a previous occasion when she entered and left as a visitor on her UK passport. The problem arose this time when she arrived at Phuket, and perhaps if she does try to activate her Thai passport as I suggest, she should avoid Phuket in case she has the misfortune to run across the same idiot.

That still wouldn't remove them from Immigrations database when they were previously entered on a foreign passport.

[stevenl]

16 hours ago, dentonian said:

 

Thais don't need a passport to visit neighbouring Countries. ID card is sufficient.

 

stevenl was referring to not being able to return to the UK.

The airline wouldn't allow check-in if she didn't have a UK passport, or UK Visa in her Thai passport.

 

No, I was not, I was referring to her not having entered on her foreign passport, and therefore being required to exit Thailand on her foreign passport.

[ubonjoe]

14 hours ago, dentonian said:

That still wouldn't remove them from Immigrations database when they were previously entered on a foreign passport.

I think you are confusing info given to you by immigration about trying to change an entry done with a foreign passport to one using a Thai passport so a person could remain in the country and then leave using the Thai passport. That can certainly not be done.

I don't think it it will effect doing an entry on a Thai passport in the future if they entered and departed on a foreign passport. I can assure you many people have done it.

 

[dentonian]

23 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I think you are confusing info given to you by immigration about trying to change an entry done with a foreign passport to one using a Thai passport so a person could remain in the country and then leave using the Thai passport. That can certainly not be done.

I don't think it it will effect doing an entry on a Thai passport in the future if they entered and departed on a foreign passport. I can assure you many people have done it.

 

I'm sure they have Joe. Common sense dictates that.

However some have encountered an unwilling or uncooperative IO who stubbornly insists on giving a 30 day visa exempt in the foreign passport on entry because they departed on the foreign passport.

 

I absolutely 100% agree with you that in this situation you should ask for a senior IO to get the problem resolved immediately.

For those that didn't, they now appear to be going around in circles with Immigration lacking the knowledge how to fix the problem.

[dentonian]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

No, I was not, I was referring to her not having entered on her foreign passport, and therefore being required to exit Thailand on her foreign passport.

She entered on a Thai passport.........correct.

Nobody would request she left on a foreign passport............only check in would need to see her foreign passport.

 

Showing Immigration the foreign passport and completing a departure card with the foreign passport details is what's caused the problem when they try to re-enter on their Thai passport, with no exit stamp, or details on their database of the Thai ever leaving the Country.

[Mattd]

The issue really is that the IO at Phuket Airport had no idea about the immigration laws that he is employed to enforce in his own country.

This is then compounded by the fact that the system isn't a proper system as it doesn't appear to be able to connect old Thai passports / people / exits together for whatever reason.

 

There could be many situations where a Thai has to replace a passport and then enter with a new one and no exit stamp, original passport expired, lost, stolen, damaged etc. etc. there HAS to be a system that allows entry back in to Thailand!

 

In this particular instance it was also compounded as she entered Thailand on her British passport around 2 years ago, renewed her Thai passport then and exited with the British passport, so the passport was issued within Thailand and not at an overseas embassy as I wrongly thought before, apologies for that!

Still shouldn't have made any difference, however, it would be interesting to know how many other Thai's have experienced issues like this when their passports were renewed overseas.

I still reckon she should test the system and depart on her Thai passport and forget the British one for travel to and from Thailand (except for showing to an airline at check in) worse case, they make her use the British one.

Ubonjoe, in your opinion, could the authorities arrest her, detain / fine her for overstay on the British passport seeing as she is Thai and therefore is entitled to be here?