Thai wife refused entry on Thai passport?

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Ubonjoe, in your opinion, could the authorities arrest her, detain / fine her for overstay on the British passport seeing as she is Thai and therefore is entitled to be here?

They could try to. Never heard of it happening though.

There is no reason for her to go on an overstay. She can go to an immigration office and get a one year extension of stay with proof she is Thai.

[Mattd]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

She can go to an immigration office and get a one year extension of stay with proof she is Thai

Ah OK, sort of reinforces the fact that she should have been allowed to enter on her Thai passport :)

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Ah OK, sort of reinforces the fact that she should have been allowed to enter on her Thai passport :)

Yes in away it does.

 

[dentonian]

6 minutes ago, Mattd said:

In this particular instance it was also compounded as she entered Thailand on her British passport around 2 years ago, renewed her Thai passport then and exited with the British passport, so the passport was issued within Thailand and not at an overseas embassy as I wrongly thought before, apologies for that!

Still shouldn't have made any difference, however, it would be interesting to know how many other Thai's have experienced issues like this when their passports were renewed overseas.

If she entered on her UK passport, she would have received a 30 day Visa exempt stamp. Entered as a foreigner entering on their database. (Arrival card details)

She was correct to depart on her UK passport to record her as exiting from Thailand as a foreigner. (Departure card details)

 

According to Joe she should be allowed to enter next time using her Thai passport as a Thai national, which I agree with.

However an IO becomes confused as to how a Thai citizen managed to leave the Country, has no exit stamp and is offering an arrival card with the departure part still intact.

Unaware how to understand or resolve the issue, their database shows she left on a UK passport, so they insist she uses that to enter again, which is totally wrong.

My argument here is that whilst I agree with Joes theory, in practice once the wrong passport has been used to exit/enter many IO's seem unable to deal with the situation and correct the problem.

 

7 minutes ago, Mattd said:

I still reckon she should test the system and depart on her Thai passport and forget the British one for travel to and from Thailand (except for showing to an airline at check in) worse case, they make her use the British one.

Ubonjoe, in your opinion, could the authorities arrest her, detain / fine her for overstay on the British passport seeing as she is Thai and therefore is entitled to be here?

In the case of my friends son, he was fined for overstay (another illegal action) and he now obtains an annual extension based on being a dependant of his Thai mother. (They didn't challenge it)

I have come to the conclusion that for those caught up in this ridiculous situation, to do exactly as you suggest.

Completely ignore the fact they entered the Thai on a foreign passport.

Use the Thai passport to exit and enter in future.

How can they fine, arrest or detain a Thai citizen for legally being in their own Country or being on overstay.

 

OK so the Thai may have made an error leaving on a foreign passport, but Immigration have no right to refuse entry on her Thai passport, so in my opinion an IO created the problem by not being aware of the Thais constitutional rights.

 

[dentonian]

30 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

 

There is no reason for her to go on an overstay. She can go to an immigration office and get a one year extension of stay with proof she is Thai.

How ridiculous a situation is that though!

Thais citizen requires an extension to legally remain in her own Country, to avoid overstay, fine or deportation.

 

It's like the UK insisting I need a Visitor Visa to legally enter and remain in the UK again.

[Guest]

Appreciate clarification on a previous comment. As to the E-Gates, comment seemed to indicate that a Thai who obtains a new passport overseas cannot use the E-Gates when returning to Thailand or must use their cancelled passport to pass through the E-Gates?  My wife was not informed about this by the Thai embassy when she got her new passport, Thai immigrations actually tried to help her use the new passport at the E-Gates but failed as the chip was found to contain corrupted data.

[Guest]

Similar clarification as to the importance of departing and returning to Thailand on the same arrival/departure card control number.  From my viewing when my wife and I recently entered Thailand the airline attendants issued new arrival/departure cards to a significant number of Thai nationals.  While waiting in immigration line my wife helped one person in filing one out.  While my wife was delayed passing through immigrations as her new embassy issued passport did not contain an exit stamp, the issue of her having a new arrival card was not brought up (the Exit stamp issue readily resolved when I retrieved her prior Thai passport).  On departure from Thailand the airlines gave her a Departure card, but it had no arrival card attached. The E-Gate attendant took the departure card but made no mention that she needed the second (serialized) half on return.

[Guest]

The events being discussed in this forum are prior to the recent signing of the new Thai Constitution on April 6, where section 39 directly addresses the right of entry and that a Thai national cannot have his/her citizenship revoked.  I suspect changes to the Thai Nationality Act will be made down the road and this aid in limiting somewhat future incidents as noted in this forum.  That said, if even then two passports are put in front of an IO ......

 

(1) http://www.mratchakitcha.soc.go.th/     

รัฐธรรมนูญแห่งราชอาณาจักร [พุทธศักราช ๒๕๖๐]                ๖ เมษายน ๒๕๖๐

 

มาตรา ๓๙ การเนรเทศบุคคลสัญชาติไทยออกนอกราชอาณาจักร หรือห้ามมิให้ผู้มีสัญชาติไทย เข้ามาในราชอาณาจักร จะกระทำมิได้

 

การถอนสัญชาติของบุคคลซึ่งมีสัญชาติไทยโดยการเกิด จะกระทำมิได้

 

(2) (unofficial UN translation) www.icj.org/thailand-english-translation-of-draft-constitution/

 

Section 39    No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom.

                     Revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth of a person shall not be permitted.

 

[Eff1n2ret]

23 hours ago, dentonian said:

I have come to the conclusion that for those caught up in this ridiculous situation, to do exactly as you suggest.

Completely ignore the fact they entered the Thai on a foreign passport.

Use the Thai passport to exit and enter in future.

How can they fine, arrest or detain a Thai citizen for legally being in their own Country or being on overstay.

I totally agree. I wonder if the OP has come to the same conclusion, given that his missis will be on "overstay" as of next Monday or Tuesday.

[stevenl]

On 4/21/2017 at 8:18 AM, dentonian said:

She entered on a Thai passport.........correct.

Nobody would request she left on a foreign passport............only check in would need to see her foreign passport.

 

Showing Immigration the foreign passport and completing a departure card with the foreign passport details is what's caused the problem when they try to re-enter on their Thai passport, with no exit stamp, or details on their database of the Thai ever leaving the Country.

Please read and understand a discussion.

 

Somebody claimed she should exit Thailand on her Thai passport, even though she entered on her foreign one. She can not.

 

Please don't speak for me and tell others what I mean, you have been wrong twice now.

[dentonian]

 

 

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

Please read and understand a discussion.

 

Somebody claimed she should exit Thailand on her Thai passport, even though she entered on her foreign one. She can not.

 

Please don't speak for me and tell others what I mean, you have been wrong twice now.

Wow there Tiger!

I wasn't the one that jumped into this topic on page 4.

 

If you go back and read the whole topic, you'll find my friends Thai son had a similar experience to the OP's wife (nss70)

That is Thai refused entry on a Thai passport.

I've already had meetings with Immigration at local and regional level about this issue, so I'm far deeper into this subject than you or your opinions.

 

Quote

Somebody claimed she should exit Thailand on her Thai passport, even though she entered on her foreign one. She can not.

Yes she can. You are wrong!

There is a precedence of what passport needs to be presented to the airline check in (the foreign one) and what needs to be presented to Immigration (the Thai one).

Not using the correct sequence has led to some Thais not being allowed entry into Thailand on their Thai passport because they left on their foreign passport. It's a scenario that shouldn't happen, but has.

 

 

[sumrit]

11 minutes ago, dentonian said:

 

Quote

Somebody claimed she should exit Thailand on her Thai passport, even though she entered on her foreign one. She can not.

Yes she can. You are wrong!

 

 

While it is always possible for a Thai to exit Thailand on a Thai passport after entering on a foreign one it is definitely not advisable.  

 

If she does that after entering and staying in Thailand on her foreign passport it will create major problems.

 

By entering on her foreign passport she is considered a foreigner while staying in Thailand and, by not exiting on the same passport, she (as a foreigner) is still registered as being in Thailand. Overstay (on that foreign passport) will then come into the equation and (possibly) a ban from entering Thailand on that foreign passport in the future. 

[dentonian]

19 minutes ago, sumrit said:

While it is always possible for a Thai to exit Thailand on a Thai passport after entering on a foreign one it is definitely not advisable.  

 

If she does that after entering and staying in Thailand on her foreign passport it will create major problems.

Agreed!

Exiting on her Thai passport will leave her entry on the Foreign passport stagnant and will create an overstay situation.

Immigration though will allow exit on either passport (although stevenl has a different opinion)

 

24 minutes ago, sumrit said:

By entering on her foreign passport she is considered a foreigner while staying in Thailand and, by not exiting on the same passport, she (as a foreigner) is still registered as being in Thailand. Overstay (on that foreign passport) will then come into the equation and (possibly) a ban from entering Thailand on that foreign passport in the future. 

Some have also been refused entry on their Thai passport because they exited on their foreign passport.

This is the crux of this topic.

Although many logical suggestions have been put forward,, until a Thai who is refused entry on their Thai passport stands up to an IO and demands their constitutional rights as a Thai national...........then we won't know the answer to the problem.

[jimster]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 1:48 PM, dentonian said:

In theory you are correct.

However very few Thais will stand up or question an IO, or any government official. They don't like confrontation or loss of face.

If they left Thailand using their foreign passport, then they made the initial mistake.

 

Immigration will point to this fact and use it against them, perhaps because they don't know what to do in this situation, but in any event they don't and cannot refuse entry to a Thai national........they just allow entry on the foreign passport which makes their job easier.

I doubt a Thai would be sufficiently aware of their own laws as a base of argument.

 

Theory is one thing, fact is another, and as already demonstrated in this thread, their are Thais who have fallen foul of this ridiculous situation and have been forced to enter on their foreign passport. If the passport number, arrival card number don't match what's in their database then Immigration are as much use as a wet lettuce.

Although Thais don't like confrontation, in cases where they know they are right and they are being victimized, they stand up for their rights. Thais constantly argue with police who stop them for minor traffic infringements just so they can get out of a fine. I (a farang) also question police officers who try to fine me, but always in a humorous way and that usually also gets me out of fines (LOL). Thais on the other hand generally don't hold much respect for the police or authority that tries to bully them. For me personally, the authorities are little more than a minor nuisance and they rarely if ever bother me.

 

I think this whole "Thais would never stand up to government officials" is an urban myth. Thais won't get angry and red in the face arguing their case (unlike westerners), but provided they know what they're doing is right, they will not back down. What normally happens is that most Thais faced with a situation as per the OPs case don't know their rights and believe what they're being told by a government official. This is especially true for first time or irregular travelers. It's as simple as that.

 

On the matter of the arrival card number not matching - well we just returned from a trip to Malaysia with some friends (by car, but not that it makes a difference it could have been by plane) and at the border my wife couldn't find her arrival card. So she had to fill out another one, took a couple of seconds more and that was it.

Edited April 22, 2017 by jimster

[jimster]

26 minutes ago, dentonian said:

Agreed!

Exiting on her Thai passport will leave her entry on the Foreign passport stagnant and will create an overstay situation.

Immigration though will allow exit on either passport (although stevenl has a different opinion)

 

Some have also been refused entry on their Thai passport because they exited on their foreign passport.

This is the crux of this topic.

Although many logical suggestions have been put forward,, until a Thai who is refused entry on their Thai passport stands up to an IO and demands their constitutional rights as a Thai national...........then we won't know the answer to the problem.

Simple. The OP exits Thailand on her British passport by LAND from Thailand to say, Cambodia. Enters Cambodia by LAND. For example, from Aranyaprathet Sa Kaeo province to Poipet, Banteay Meanchey province. Then she travels to either Siem Reap or Phnom Penh international airport and books a one way ticket to Bangkok on any airline, for example, Thai Airways (THAI Smile if traveling from Siem Reap). At the airport, she shows her Thai passport, and at Cambodian immigration her British passport. Upon arriving back in Bangkok (Suvarnabhumi) she uses the auto gates and shows her Thai passport. Finally, she should never attempt to use her British passport again to enter Thailand.

 

Case closed.

 

Also, I suspect that many dual citizen Thais (most?) stand up to the IO and ask for a supervisor if refused entry on their Thai passports. The only reason you don't know about this is because they generally don't come onto Thai visa to talk about their experience, especially if it was positive.

[stevenl]

21 minutes ago, jimster said:

Simple. The OP exits Thailand on her British passport by LAND from Thailand to say, Cambodia. Enters Cambodia by LAND. For example, from Aranyaprathet Sa Kaeo province to Poipet, Banteay Meanchey province. Then she travels to either Siem Reap or Phnom Penh international airport and books a one way ticket to Bangkok on any airline, for example, Thai Airways (THAI Smile if traveling from Siem Reap). At the airport, she shows her Thai passport, and at Cambodian immigration her British passport. Upon arriving back in Bangkok (Suvarnabhumi) she uses the auto gates and shows her Thai passport. Finally, she should never attempt to use her British passport again to enter Thailand.

 

Case closed.

 

Also, I suspect that many dual citizen Thais (most?) stand up to the IO and ask for a supervisor if refused entry on their Thai passports. The only reason you don't know about this is because they generally don't come onto Thai visa to talk about their experience, especially if it was positive.

Or Op could simply fly out of Thailand and fly back in, as has been suggested already. First fly out on foreign passport, then enter again on Thai passport.

[Mattd]

2 hours ago, jimster said:

Simple. The OP exits Thailand on her British passport by LAND from Thailand to say, Cambodia. Enters Cambodia by LAND. For example, from Aranyaprathet Sa Kaeo province to Poipet, Banteay Meanchey province. Then she travels to either Siem Reap or Phnom Penh international airport and books a one way ticket to Bangkok on any airline, for example, Thai Airways (THAI Smile if traveling from Siem Reap). At the airport, she shows her Thai passport, and at Cambodian immigration her British passport. Upon arriving back in Bangkok (Suvarnabhumi) she uses the auto gates and shows her Thai passport. Finally, she should never attempt to use her British passport again to enter Thailand.

 

Case closed.

Although I agree that this should resolve the issue, it does not get past the fact that she could get refused entry on her Thai passport again, due to no exit stamp / TM.6, we all agree that the immigration have no right to refuse her entry on her Thai passport, however this is exactly how she is in this current situation and doing as you suggest might not necessarily resolve this.

 

3 hours ago, sumrit said:

sible for a Thai to exit Thailand on a Thai passport after entering on a foreign one it is definitely not advisable.  

 

If she does that after entering and staying in Thailand on her foreign passport it will create major problems.

Why do you think this, she is Thai in Thailand, there is no getting away from that fact, just fly out on the Thai passport and do not use the British one for entering Thailand ever again, really, what can the authorities do in that situation?

[Evilbaz]

If she has trouble next time entering on her Thai passport she should just stand her ground and keep repeating "I am Thai - this is my country".

 

[dentonian]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

Or Op could simply fly out of Thailand and fly back in, as has been suggested already. First fly out on foreign passport, then enter again on Thai passport.

If you read the full thread Steven, in some cases doing just that is what's caused the problem.

Flying out on the foreign passport means entering the foreign passport number on the departure card.

When entering the details on the arrival card don't match those of the Thai passport.

Departure/arrival cards are barcoded for an automated system.

 

It should be correctable at entry, bot some IO's have refused entry on the Thai passport, instead only allowing entry on the foreign passport which was used to exit in error. That brings us back to square one.

 

I can only liken the similarity of this situation to the 'Hole in the bucket' song. (Dear Henry, dear Henry)

[dentonian]

3 hours ago, jimster said:

Simple. The OP exits Thailand on her British passport by LAND from Thailand to say, Cambodia. Enters Cambodia by LAND. For example, from Aranyaprathet Sa Kaeo province to Poipet, Banteay Meanchey province. Then she travels to either Siem Reap or Phnom Penh international airport and books a one way ticket to Bangkok on any airline, for example, Thai Airways (THAI Smile if traveling from Siem Reap). At the airport, she shows her Thai passport, and at Cambodian immigration her British passport. Upon arriving back in Bangkok (Suvarnabhumi) she uses the auto gates and shows her Thai passport. Finally, she should never attempt to use her British passport again to enter Thailand.

 

Case closed.

.

Assuming the Thai had an e-passport.

She has to exit using the e-pass gates in order to enter again using the e-pass gate.

If you used an e-pass foreign passport to exit and tried to use an e-pass Thai passport to enter.......... guess what?

 

Gate closed!

[Guest]

A lot of information being passed at this time that readers may find confusing. Appreciate clarification of some recent comments.

1) Has to exit e-gate using e-passport in order to enter e-gate using e-passport. Is this meant to say a Thai needs to first depart Thailand through its e-gates in order to enter Thailand via the e-gates? Are Thais on new passports issued by embassy not being allowed to enter via the e-gates?

2) Gate - closed. Is this in relationship to the E-gates?  Can you now exit Thailand via a foreign E-gate?

3) TM-6's - would a person leaving on a foreign passport not be using the same TM-6 they arrived on?  They would have then used both portions of the TM-6.  On entering Thailand with the Thai passport, if they do not have an old TM-6 associated with the Thai passport would they not simply enter on a new TM-6, which I believe is very common with no questions asked.

4) At the start of the forum it was indicated that the old passport (with departure stamp?) was available but not taken by the Thai wife and that the husband informed the wife to complain to supervisors if problems arose.  Thai immigrations (1111 call) themselves stated the wife had the option of leaving Thailand on the foreign passport and returning on the new passport (and should be carrying the old passport (and seemingly exit stamp) at that time.  And, complain to a supervisor if problems arose. Nice to know if she has done this, and results.

[jimster]

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

Or Op could simply fly out of Thailand and fly back in, as has been suggested already. First fly out on foreign passport, then enter again on Thai passport.

Sure. It could either be fly out and fly back in or exit by land then fly back in.

[jimster]

4 hours ago, dentonian said:

Assuming the Thai had an e-passport.

She has to exit using the e-pass gates in order to enter again using the e-pass gate.

If you used an e-pass foreign passport to exit and tried to use an e-pass Thai passport to enter.......... guess what?

 

Gate closed!

The e-pass gates at Suvarnabhumi airport are only for Thai nationals whether for entry or exit. Foreigners can't use them, irrespective of their residency status in Thailand. This is different to say Australia, which allows an ever increasing number of countries to use their e-gates even though that means the foreigner's passport won't have an entry stamp in it or any indication as to how long said foreigner is allowed to stay in Australia. All Australian citizens and foreigners use e-gates now to exit Australia.

 

I understand all Thai passports issued in the last few years are e-passports, so provided the OP has had their passport issued in the past few years using the e-gates wouldn't be an issue.

[Guest]

Remember somewhere, in this or other recent forum, mention was made that Thai nationals cannot have two passports.  That statement should be couched with the answer that according to the Thai MFA website (http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21482-e-Passport-Application-for-Thai-Nationals-Living-A.html) “Your Passport is a valuable document and should not be possessed by any other person.  Thai nationals can only hold one Passport.  If you lose your Passport, you must immediately notify the Passport Division, local police, or the Thai embassy or consulate-general)".  This though is clarified under the website’s FAQ section, which I suspect is in keeping with the 2008 Nationality Act that allowed a Thai to keep their citizenship in case of marriage to a foreign national.  In this section (http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21483-Frequently-Asked-Questions-(FAQs).html} it answers the question of “Can I apply for a Thai e-Passport if I am already holding a foreign  Passport? -Yes, if you are a Thai national, you may apply for a Thai e-Passport.  However, many countries will not recognize dual citizenship. Therefore, you may be required to give up other nationalities before you can apply for a Passport from that country.)".  This though does not say that you can/should, as a Thai citizen, present or use the foreign passport for entry into Thailand.

[Maestro]

6 hours ago, Evilbaz said:

If she has trouble next time entering on her Thai passport she should just stand her ground and keep repeating "I am Thai - this is my country".

 

 

...or, to make life easier for the Thai immigration official, on entry to Thailand present both her old, expired Thai passport with her last exit stamp and her new Thai passport.

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, jimster said:

The e-pass gates at Suvarnabhumi airport are only for Thai nationals whether for entry or exit. Foreigners can't use them, irrespective of their residency status in Thailand.

That is not correct. Those with permanent residency for Thailand can register to use the e-gates.

[stevenl]

15 hours ago, dentonian said:

If you read the full thread Steven, in some cases doing just that is what's caused the problem.

Flying out on the foreign passport means entering the foreign passport number on the departure card.

When entering the details on the arrival card don't match those of the Thai passport.

Departure/arrival cards are barcoded for an automated system.

 

It should be correctable at entry, bot some IO's have refused entry on the Thai passport, instead only allowing entry on the foreign passport which was used to exit in error. That brings us back to square one.

 

I can only liken the similarity of this situation to the 'Hole in the bucket' song. (Dear Henry, dear Henry)

I read the whole thread. All that has to be done is insist on being allowed entry on the Thai passport. The other solutions are just solutions to a non-existent problem, some insistence will do the trick and prevent any future problems.

[Arkady]

In all cases reported TV a demand to see the immigration officer's supervisor has solved this problem because they know they have no legal right to deny entry to a Thai citizen on their passport, no matter how many other nationalities that person may have. 

 

The current 1965 Thai Nationality Act neither prohibits nor supports dual nationality but has some provisions that provide for revocation of Thai nationality from naturalised Thais and those who are Thai through birth in the Kingdom to two alien parents, under certain circumstances.  There is also a provision for Thais who naturalise as aliens to lose their Thai nationality but the only interpretation of this since the Act came into force in 1965 has been to allow voluntary renunciation of Thai nationality, as is required by some countries, e.g. S Korea, Singapore, Germany et al, as a condition of naturalisation. There are no records of Thais involuntarily losing Thai nationality for naturalising as aliens since 1965, as far as I am aware from searching in the Royal Gazette where announcements of renunciation of citizenship must be made by law.

 

Finally the new constitution which is already in force has the following relevant clauses:

 

Section 5. The Constitution is the supreme law of the State. The provisions of any  law,  rule,  or  regulation,  or any  action  which  are  contrary  to  or  inconsistent  with  the Constitution shall not be unenforceable.

 

Section 39.  No  person  of  Thai  nationality  shall  be  deported  or  prohibited from entering the Kingdom. Revocation  of   Thai   nationality   acquired   by  birth  of   a  person   shall  not   be Permitted.

 

Any Thai citizen denied the right of entry to Thailand as a Thai should have the right to sue the offending official or agency in either the Administrative Court or the Constitutional Court or both.  It is worth travelling with copies of he constitution and the Nationalty Act and asking officials to point out which clauses give them the right to deny entry.  They will soon give up in this case because they know it is just their whim or a preconceived idea that dual nationality is wrong, even though there is no law specifically prohibiting it.

 

To resolve the OP's issue the simplest solution would probably be to leave Thailand on the UK passport to close out the 30 day visa and re-enter by air via Suvaranbhumi using the automatic gates.

 

 

 

[digbeth]

The issue has me wondering about entry and exit stamps... what if you lost your passport while in Thailand and has a new, emergency one, issued from your consulate, it would be blank of any visas and entry stamps... would the immigration desk at the airport give you trouble for this or do you have to contact them in advance to find their 'copies' of the old entry stamp/card that you came in on

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, digbeth said:

The issue has me wondering about entry and exit stamps... what if you lost your passport while in Thailand and has a new, emergency one, issued from your consulate, it would be blank of any visas and entry stamps... would the immigration desk at the airport give you trouble for this or do you have to contact them in advance to find their 'copies' of the old entry stamp/card that you came in on

If you only had an entry stamp (no extension issued by immigration) you could go to the airport, show your emergency passport and the police report for your lost/stolen passport. Immigration would look up your records in their database and reinstate your entry stamp into it and stamp you out of the country.