Thai wife refused entry on Thai passport?

[Guest]

There is so much poor if not outright contradictory or wrong information on the subject of Dual Nationality both on the web as well as in various forums.  Easy for a reader to miss information of value or simply get confused during search of the web, if not various postings.  Could maybe forum moderators come up with a sticky or pin of relevant issues that can be agreed on (maybe a copy of section 39 of Thai Constitution in Thai and English that pertains to entry and nationality; extract of MFA posting relating to Thai's and multiple passports; extract of relevant change(s) in the Nationality Act that gives Thai's the "option" of revoking their citizenship (vice automatically losing it) on obtaining citizenship of their husband/wife; maybe some words reflecting issues such as if entering Thailand on a new Thai passport (no exit stamp) it may be advisable that one may wish to bring their old passport with them on entry to Thailand in case an IO requests to see an Exit stamp; that as a Thai one may wish to enter Thailand on a Thai passport and if entering on a foreign passport, leave on it;  that if overseas one should think about getting a new Thai passport at an embassy (vice returning to and leaving Thailand on a foreign passport, no record existing that as a Thai citizen they left the country on their newly acquired Thai passport); if one has problems one may think about asking to see a supervisor; and such). Just a suggestion (hope I got the above right myself) as I do not know forum rules on this.

[Guest]

Add to the above, as mentioned by others several times, the E-gates are easy to use, quick and entry and exit friendly to a Thai national with a valid Thai passport.

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[Guest]

Arkady, should the wording to Section 5 be "or any action which are inconsistent with the Constitution shall be unenforceable" vice "shall not be unenforceable"?

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[BritTim]

Quote

Arkady, should the wording to Section 5 be "or any action which are inconsistent with the Constitution shall be unenforceable" vice "shall not be unenforceable"?

Best wording, I think, "shall not be enforceable". Double negatives are rarely a good idea.

Edited April 23, 2017 by BritTim

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, research said:

Arkady, should the wording to Section 5 be "or any action which are inconsistent with the Constitution shall be unenforceable" vice "shall not be unenforceable"?

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I think you need to go back to school. Anyway, you are not qualified to make suggestions for changes in the text of the constitution.

 

Furthermore, although the new constitution is already in force (the Prime Minister has been quoted as saying that this is the case), according to press reports arrangements have been made by the government that the text of the new constitution shall not be made public until it is published in the Royal Gazette.

 

In other words, while we currently know the text that was submitted to a referendum, because that text was made public, we also know from press reports that some changes were subsequently made by the parliament and therefore we do not yet know the final and currently valid text of the new constitution.

[Guest]

The constitution was published in the Royal Gazette on April 6, the date of signing. It can be found there on that website. As to my suggesting deletion of the word "not" at the end of section 5 of Arkady's posting, that is in keeping with the translation of section 5 of the constitution as posted online by the UN (the word "not" not used in that sentence). Your posting was quite rude for a forum Admin member I think.

[dentonian]

22 hours ago, Arkady said:

To resolve the OP's issue the simplest solution would probably be to leave Thailand on the UK passport to close out the 30 day visa and re-enter by air via Suvaranbhumi using the automatic gates.

 

If you didn't leave Thailand on a Thai passport there is no record of those biometric details in the database and you cannot re-enter using the automatic gates.

[Guest]

Who/what is the source of information that states you cannot enter Thailand via the E-gates, if you did not exit Thailand first via them. In discussion with the Thai embassy that was believed to be a rumor. E-gate readers in many countries compare bio-metrics embedded in the passport's chip with those gathered on walk through of the E-gate (picture, finger prints, scan of passport, etc) and if they match you continue on, if not you are flagged to the IO. Is Thailand using a different reader/comparison process?

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[dentonian]

1 hour ago, research said:

Who/what is the source of information that states you cannot enter Thailand via the E-gates, if you did not exit Thailand first via them. In discussion with the Thai embassy that was believed to be a rumor. E-gate readers in many countries compare bio-metrics embedded in the passport's chip with those gathered on walk through of the E-gate (picture, finger prints, scan of passport, etc) and if they match you continue on, if not you are flagged to the IO. Is Thailand using a different reader/comparison process?

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Thailand operates an exit and entry system even for Thai citizens.

If you depart through Immigration control and not the e-gates, you receive an exit stamp and complete a TM6.

The e-gate should not allow entry using the passports biometrics if the exit was manual and not electronic.

This is to prevent forgery which contribute to the international effort to counter transnational terrorist activities, and illegal entry into the Kingdom.

 

Similarly a Thai who leaves using the e-gate on an aging passport, then acquires a new passport from a Thai Embassy in another Country may not be able to re-enter via the e-gates until their new biometric and passport details have been reported to the Minister of Interior and the database updated. The new passports details will have to be read and programmed into the system before it becomes functional.

 

The e-gates check both biometric and personal passport details.

[Guest]

Thanks, interesting. Good explanation. Maybe there should be signs (are there?) at the arrival E-gates to warn off travelers not to use them and tie up the gates/embassy pamphlet informing those obtaining New passports overseas to not attempt entry via the gates.

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[Maestro]

16 hours ago, research said:

...As to my suggesting deletion of the word "not" at the end of section 5 of Arkady's posting, that is in keeping with the translation of section 5 of the constitution as posted online by the UN...

 

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

I was referring to your suggestion that the the text that has been translated as "or any action which are inconsistent with the Constitution shall be unenforceable" should have been translated as "or any action which are inconsistent with the Constitution shall not be unenforceable"

[Guest]

Arkady's posting was "Section 5. The Constitution is the supreme law of the State. The provisions of any  law,  rule,  or regulation,  or any  action  which  are  contrary  to or  inconsistent  with  the Constitution shall not be unenforceable."   I was wondering where "not" came from as it is not in the U.N. translation of that sentence.

[Maestro]

17 hours ago, research said:

The constitution was published in the Royal Gazette on April 6, the date of signing.

 

Has anybody got a link to the Royal Gazette allegedly published on April 6 with the Thai text of the new constitution reportedly signed by the King on that date?

[Guest]

Try this - you will need to use the site search engine I believe (I do not read Thai, I provide this as I believe this is the article on the Constitution). Try searching by date of April 6.

 

http://www.mratchakitcha.soc.go.th/     

รัฐธรรมนูญแห่งรอาณาจักร [พุทธศักราช๒๕๖๐]             ๖ เมษายน ๒๕๖๐

 

 

 

[Guest]

Half way down this article there is a statement on the posting of the Constitution in the Royal Gazette.

 

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1780VB

[Maestro]

19 hours ago, research said:

...Your posting was quite rude for a forum Admin member I think.

 

My apologies for my insensitive reply to your post. I misunderstood your post, but that's no excuse.

[Guest]

No problem.

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[Maestro]

21 hours ago, Maestro said:

Furthermore, although the new constitution is already in force (the Prime Minister has been quoted as saying that this is the case), according to press reports arrangements have been made by the government that the text of the new constitution shall not be made public until it is published in the Royal Gazette.

 

In other words, while we currently know the text that was submitted to a referendum, because that text was made public, we also know from press reports that some changes were subsequently made by the parliament and therefore we do not yet know the final and currently valid text of the new constitution.

 

Correction: the new constitution has in fact been published in the Royal Gazette dated 6 April 2017 and I am now waiting for an English translation to become available on the Internet. 

 

A comparison of the Thai text of Section 39 of the draft constitution and the promulgated constitution shows that the text of this section has not been changed. The published translation of the draft constitution has it as follows:

 

Quote

Section 39 No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom.
Revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth of a person shall not be permitted.

 

[Maestro]

4 hours ago, research said:

Try this - you will need to use the site search engine I believe (I do not read Thai, I provide this as I believe this is the article on the Constitution). Try searching by date of April 6.

 

http://www.mratchakitcha.soc.go.th/     

รัฐธรรมนูญแห่งรอาณาจักร [พุทธศักราช๒๕๖๐]             ๖ เมษายน ๒๕๖๐

 

 

Thank you for the link; it helped me find the published text.

[dentonian]

6 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Correction: the new constitution has in fact been published in the Royal Gazette dated 6 April 2017 and I am now waiting for an English translation to become available on the Internet. 

 

A comparison of the Thai text of Section 39 of the draft constitution and the promulgated constitution shows that the text of this section has not been changed. The published translation of the draft constitution has it as follows:

 

 

Quote

Section 39 No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom.
Revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth of a person shall not be permitted.

 

It will be interesting to see how Immigration interpret this section of the constitution.

Of the 3 cases highlighted in this thread, no Thais were prohibited from entering, although they were prohibited from entering on their Thai passports.

[dentonian]

11 hours ago, research said:

Thanks, interesting. Good explanation. Maybe there should be signs (are there?) at the arrival E-gates to warn off travelers not to use them and tie up the gates/embassy pamphlet informing those obtaining New passports overseas to not attempt entry via the gates.

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Note, I said 'may' not.

I don't know the Thai Embassies policy on registering a new passport with the Ministry of Interior in Thailand.

A new passport has to be scanned into the system before it will operate and that is usually undertaken at the office of the Passport authority on issue.

 

I was a Security contractor and worked on installation of the first e-gates at Manchester airport back in 2007.

The system can be programmed to accept/decline use of the automatic gates dependant on nationality and given situations.

Although I have no personal experience of Thailand's e-gates, a good Thai friend who exited on a foreign passport, was denied entry via the e-gates on their Thai passport and redirected to Immigration control.

That makes perfect security sense to me in view of thwarting forgery, and illegal entry by undesirable entities.

[Guest]

Understand. Do not remember seeing a prior posting of the experience of a Thai who obtained a Thai passport Overseas and attempted entry into Thailand through an E-gate or attempted to enter Thailand 6via an E-gate but never exited Thailand that way. Time and another forum may tell. But either way what do you have to lose, why not try them.

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[Eff1n2ret]

In the OP's case, the Thai passport was not issued overseas, but in Thailand on a previous trip when she had entered and left on a foreign passport, and an IO refused to admit her as a Thai citizen when she entered Thailand a month ago. Thus there should be no problem of the passport not being "recognised" at an E-gate if she chose to leave Thailand that way. If that was successful, she could probably travel in and out of Thailand on all future occasions using her Thai passport, and the "overstay" on her British passport may just remain as an anomaly in the database and never come to light unless she tries to use that passport to enter or exit Thailand.

 

It would be interesting to hear from the OP now that his wife is an "overstayer" according to the stamp on her UK passport.

[dentonian]

1 hour ago, Eff1n2ret said:

It would be interesting to hear from the OP now that his wife is an "overstayer" according to the stamp on her UK passport.

In the case of my friends son (Thai) his Thai Mother states that 2 months after entry she received a telephone call from Amnat, who were the local Immigration office at the time.

They fined her son 20,000 baht overstay, then issued him an extension.

He is now on his 2nd extension and has to make 90 day reports when in Thailand.

(He spends approx 8 months in UK, 4 months in Thailand each year)

 

His parents have yet to obtain a new Thai passport for their son and return to Immigration as instructed to resolve the situation.

[free123]

On 25.3.2017 at 9:09 AM, dentonian said:

A friend had the same experience with his Thai son.

 

It's not so easy to sort out this type of problem when it arises.

Even Thais have to complete a TM6 when leaving Thailand. If you use a UK passport to exit Thailand then that passport number is recorded on the database. When trying to re-enter on a Thai passport, it's a different number and cannot be matched on their database.

 

Flying across a border and back using a Thai passport doesn't resolve the problem either.

Immigrations database will still show a UK citizen (although Thai as well) as having entered but never left, so effectively remaining on overstay according to their database. It creates a ridiculous situation where the Thai is legally in their own Country but being treated as a foreigner.

 

The only way to resolve the problem, if not at the point of entry, is for the Thai to visit their local Immigration office with Thai passport, ID card and Tabien Baan and let them sort it out. The Thai citizen needs to be removed from Immigrations database to prevent further issues arising.

 

 

l this comes if countrys are xenophenic against foreigners and try to control everything and anything...if i go back to europe the custom only have a quick look at my eu pp...and off i go...it does not matter where i come from or which bs stamps i have or have not in the pp....

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 25/04/2017 at 11:41 AM, Eff1n2ret said:

In the OP's case, the Thai passport was not issued overseas, but in Thailand on a previous trip when she had entered and left on a foreign passport, and an IO refused to admit her as a Thai citizen when she entered Thailand a month ago. 

[...]

It would be interesting to hear from the OP now that his wife is an "overstayer" according to the stamp on her UK passport.

For what it's worth (maybe not a lot, if you meet an obdurate immigration official) my daughter who has dual nationality did this also (got a Thai passport while in the kingdom having entered on a foreign one, then left on the foreign passport). When she returned next time she entered on her Thai passport which had no stamps in it. Although she was able to enter, it seemed to slightly flummox the immigration official as she stamped my daughter's Thai passport with a 30-day visa-exempt entry, as if she was a foreigner. I can't remember exactly now as it was around 10 years ago but as I recall, we were able to clear up the confusion with a visit to the immigration office where they confirmed that she should never have been given a visa-exempt entry and was not bound by its restrictions (I think they may have made some kind of adjustment in the system to reflect this but again, I'm a little fuzzy on the details).

 

She was subsequently able to enter and leave Thailand multiple times on the same Thai passport without any problems.

[Geordie59]

35 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

For what it's worth (maybe not a lot, if you meet an obdurate immigration official) my daughter who has dual nationality did this also (got a Thai passport while in the kingdom having entered on a foreign one, then left on the foreign passport). When she returned next time she entered on her Thai passport which had no stamps in it. Although she was able to enter, it seemed to slightly flummox the immigration official as she stamped my daughter's Thai passport with a 30-day visa-exempt entry, as if she was a foreigner. I can't remember exactly now as it was around 10 years ago but as I recall, we were able to clear up the confusion with a visit to the immigration office where they confirmed that she should never have been given a visa-exempt entry and was not bound by its restrictions (I think they may have made some kind of adjustment in the system to reflect this but again, I'm a little fuzzy on the details).

 

She was subsequently able to enter and leave Thailand multiple times on the same Thai passport without any problems.

My daughter did the same thing last year. When she returned to Thailand she just showed the immigration officer both passports and asked what she should do. He just stamped her in as a Thai in her Thai passport.
I guess it depends on who is on duty the day you come in, or leave.

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 04/14/2017 at 10:36 AM, gandalf12 said:

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: NOT RECOGNIZED. Exceptions: Child born abroad to Thaiparents, who obtains the citizenship of the foreign country of birth, may retain dual citizenship until reaching the age of majority (18). At this point, person must choose which citizenship to retain." 

This information is shown on the site www.multiplecitizenship.com and is probably quoted a lot as it comes up as the first result whenever you do a Google search on this issue. However, as they say on their site themselves:

 

Quote

The accuracy and depth of these country listings varies significantly, and some information may be incorrect. At best, this page presents only part of the story for a particular country. 

 

Because we try to write about different countries, most of the material is likely in languages we unfortunately can't read.  Other material is not available on the Internet: e.g. laws, books, articles, court decisions or thoughts in somebody's brain after they have figured it out.  And finally, interpretations of laws can change over time. 

They also ask for people to provide them with better or updated information if they have it, as follows: 

Quote

Do you know of other information?
[...]
Send us an email to the address below.
[...]
Our E-mail address is:   [email protected]

 

I would say, the more people that email them with the correct info, the better.

Edited April 29, 2017 by GroveHillWanderer

[dentonian]

8 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I can't remember exactly now as it was around 10 years ago but as I recall, we were able to clear up the confusion with a visit to the immigration office where they confirmed that she should never have been given a visa-exempt entry and was not bound by its restrictions (I think they may have made some kind of adjustment in the system to reflect this but again, I'm a little fuzzy on the details).

 

She was subsequently able to enter and leave Thailand multiple times on the same Thai passport without any problems.

That's exactly what my friend has been told by his local Imm office.

Although they state the documents must be returned to CW to correct the stamps and amend the database.

[Guest]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 4:34 AM, GroveHillWanderer said:

This information is shown on the site www.multiplecitizenship.com and is probably quoted a lot as it comes up as the first result whenever you do a Google search on this issue. However, as they say on their site themselves:

 

They also ask for people to provide them with better or updated information if they have it, as follows: 

 

I would say, the more people that email them with the correct info, the better.

 

The website ( http://multiplecitizenship.com/countrylist.html)  as of today says

 

"Thailand

• "The Thai Nationality Act (2535 B.E.) has opened the possibility for a (foreign born) person, born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, to acquire Thai nationality" (link to Thai embassy in US).

• It is unclear exactly what status dual citizenship has in Thai law, though there is at least some recognition"