Svarna-bhoomi or Suwannaphum?

[kashmir1997]

I'm somewhat confused about the way Thais pronounce the name of BKK's airport. For the casual Indian observer such as myself, we say it the way it's spelled as it means 'Golden Land' in Sanskrit and Hindi, but I was rather surprised to see Thais saying it as 'Suwannaphum', something along those lines, during my visit. Do Pali and Sanskrit borrowings into the Thai language preserve their original structure or are they modified? If it's the latter, why is the official name not spelled the 'Thai way'?

[KhunBENQ]

Moved to the Thai language forum.

 

[KhunBENQ]

For a start, this is a Thai speaker although a bit slowly speaking.

Click to listen:

http://www.clickthai-online.de/cgi-bin/playmp3.pl?357000

 

1 hour ago, kashmir1997 said:

Do Pali and Sanskrit borrowings into the Thai language preserve their original structure or are they modified?

As far as I understand they are mostly adapted to the pronunciation rules (limitations) of Thai language.

Many words "cut down", syllables "silenced" etc.

 

Quote

If it's the latter, why is the official name not spelled the 'Thai way'?

Good question.

I understood that it is kind of "elite"/"academic" attitude?

 

[KhunBENQ]

BTW, the "official" RTGS transcript would be: Suwannaphum.

For the English like "sù-wanna poom".

[kashmir1997]

21 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

As far as I understand they are mostly adapted to the pronunciation rules (limitations) of Thai language.

Many words "cut down", syllables "silenced" etc.

 

Do you read Devanagari? It is the abugida used to write Sanskrit and Hindi. Our 'letters', or consonants go like:

 

ka    kha    ga    gha    ṅ    cha    chha    ja    jha    ñ    ṭa    ṭha    ḍa    ḍha    ṇa    ta    tha    da    dha    na    ṉ    pa    pha

Apparently the Thai alphabet is also a Brahmi script that has a similar consonant system, so would I be correct in saying that the Thai alphabet can accurately replicate 'Suvarnabhumi' in the original Sanskrit pronunciation, but it's just the language, not the script, that is limited in scope?

[Oxx]

9 hours ago, kashmir1997 said:

Apparently the Thai alphabet is also a Brahmi script that has a similar consonant system, so would I be correct in saying that the Thai alphabet can accurately replicate 'Suvarnabhumi' in the original Sanskrit pronunciation, but it's just the language, not the script, that is limited in scope?

 

Spot on.  Thai script is descended from Brāhmī via Pallava and Khmer.  Additional characters were added to enable words from languages other than Sanskrit/Pali and Thai (e.g. Chinese languages) to be represented, always trying to maintain as much of the original spelling as possible.

 

The fetish for spelling preservation is not paralleled by a fetish for pronunciation preservation, and the liturgical Pali pronunciation here is mutually unintelligible with "normal" Pali pronunciation.

 

 

[petermik]

Just say "swampy" everyone will understand

[Richard W]

There is a subtlety with -rC- clusters, as in -rṇ- cluster.  Often the -r- is assimilated to the next consonant, but the -r- is retained in the spelling.  Then  the old way of showing that the vowel is /a/ and not /o/ is employed, which is to double the following consonant.  This is now only applied to -r-, so the -arṇa- bit is spelt -รรณ-.  In other words, the <r> of the -rC- becomes /n/ because it ends a syllable, as in สวรรค์ [L]sa [R]wan 'heaven' from Sanskrit svarga. In the Thai script, svarga is written สวรฺค.  Sometimes one gets doublets, as in พรรค [H]phak '(political) party' but พรรค์ [M]phan 'group, class', both from Sanskrit varga and Pali vagga.

[cooked]

Every 40 years or so attempts are made to reform the Royal Thai transliteration system. Academics resist like hell for the usual elitist reasons. As a result unofficial systems have sprung up which just confuse things.

Understanding the transliteration system is almost as difficult as learning Thai.

[Oxx]

21 minutes ago, cooked said:

Every 40 years or so attempts are made to reform the Royal Thai transliteration system. Academics resist like hell for the usual elitist reasons.

 

That's hogwash and an unnecessary slur.  The system was first published in 1932, and revised in 1939, 1968 and 1999.  So, not "every 40 years or so", and no academic resistance, let alone for elitist reasons.

[cooked]

3 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

That's hogwash and an unnecessary slur.  The system was first published in 1932, and revised in 1939, 1968 and 1999.  So, not "every 40 years or so", and no academic resistance, let alone for elitist reasons.

Academics , generally, need to be 'slurred'. OK, so it's been revised 3 times since 1932, I bow to your important correction.

Resistance to change has been the principal characteristic of these reformations.

Hogwash yourself, my dad's bigger than your dad.

[geriatrickid]

I learned something  new  today, for which I thank  the OP and Oxx.

[tgeezer]

I can't comment on the spelling, but as the OP says ท่ายานอากาศสุวรรณภูมิ means The Golden Penisular's Airport Or Southeast Asia's Airport.


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[Puccini]

On 4/1/2017 at 5:36 AM, petermik said:

Just say "swampy" everyone will understand

 

How do Thai newspapers write Swampy?

[bannork]

1 hour ago, Puccini said:

 

How do Thai newspapers write Swampy?

สุวรรณภูมิ  pronounced Su wan a poom  -you can include the airport reference as tgeezer does above-ท่ายานอากาศสุวรรณภูมิ  to be more formal

[Puccini]

Thank you, bannork.

 

I did a Google search for Swampy just now and the first page of results gave no link between Swampy and Suvarnabhumi.

 

Swampy Suvarnabhumi.pdf

 

I take it, then, that Swampy is a denigratory name for Suvarnabhumi airport, an inside joke known to pertermik and perhhaps some other forum members. It looks to me like it is intended as a gesture of disrespect to whomever came up with the name Suvarnabhumi. Was it the former Prime Minister Thaksin, during whose time in office the airport was built?

 

Does the Thai language also have a nickname or slang expression, denigratory or disrespectful or not, for Suvarnabhumi airport.

[bannork]

Just now, Puccini said:

Thank you, bannork.

 

I did a Google search for Swampy just now and the first page of results gave no link between Swampy and Suvarnabhumi.

 

Swampy Suvarnabhumi.pdf

 

I take it, then, that Swampy is a denigratory name for Suvarnabhumi airport, an inside joke known to pertermik and perhhaps some other forum members. It looks to me like it is intended as a gesture of disrespect to whomever came up with the name Suvarnabhumi. Was it the former Prime Minister Thaksin, during whose time in office the airport was built?

 

Does the Thai language also have a nickname or slang expression, denigratory or disrespectful or not, for Suvarnabhumi airport.

I think Swampy is a term of affection rather than derogatory. It originates from where the airport is built, that is  on  a swamp/marsh  -  หนอง   in Thai  (Nong)   the place is actually called หนอง งูเห่า  (cobra swamp) because of the number of cobras in the past.

At the time many voiced suspicion as to why an airport would be built on a swamp when there are plenty of other places higher up than didn't require huge amounts of landfill with earth and sand.  And that could be exactly why it was built there for the contractors who won the bid to provide the landfill made a lot of money, perhaps having to share some of that loot with those who awarded them the contract.

Hence the nickname for the sand  used as landfill as golden sand- a play on the fact it was a needless costly expense and the name of Suvarnabhumi - the golden land!!

 

[Oxx]

"Swampy" also alludes to the massive corruption in the building of the place.

[tgeezer]

Good stories, I learned some new uses for a few words from yours bannork.
I feeel that Swampy is of farang origin and always assumed that it was adopted because the land was a ​swamp and Suwannaphum was too long a word. More etymology than that I wouldn't venture. I am not quite so cynical toward Thai culture as you two.
Has anyone looked up the name on the actual airport building I thought think the sign reads ท่าอากาศยานสุวรรณภูทิ port aeroplane Suwannapum.
When the topic was reactivated and I read what I wrote I thought that I had it wrong but since reference to Google I see both itterations for airport. Also other airports even squeeze สนามบิน in as well, which seems completely redundant.


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[KhunBENQ]

2 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Has anyone looked up the name on the actual airport building I thought think the sign reads

ท่าอากาศยานสุวรรณภูทิ port aeroplane Suwannapum.

Not quite (typo?).

ท่าอากาศยานสุวรรณภูมิ (tha-akatsayan suwannaphum / tâa aa-gàat-sà-yaan sù-wanna poom)

ท่าอากาศยาน being formally for airport.

Colloquial use is just สนามบิน (sanambin).

[Puccini]

2 hours ago, tgeezer said:

When the topic was reactivated and I read what I wrote I thought that I had it wrong but since reference to Google I see both itterations for airport. Also other airports even squeeze สนามบิน in as well, which seems completely redundant.

 

Does a Thai, when you ask him "Where are you going?" and he responds that he is going to Suvarnabhumi airport, usually say

• ไปสนามบินสุวรรณภูมิ (I'm going to Suvarnbhumi airport); or
• ไปสุวรรณภูมิ (I'm going to Suvarnbhumi); or
• ไปสนามบิน (I'm going to the airport), leaving it to you to ask what airport if you are interested in knowing this detail.

[Puccini]

8 hours ago, bannork said:

I think Swampy is a term of affection...

 

Does the Thai language also have an affectionate term for Suvarnabumi airport? Fore example, might a Thai say ไปปลัก (I'm going to the swamp) or ไปทรายสีทอง (I'm going to the golden sand) and other Thais would understand that he is going to Suvarnabhumi airport?

 

Thais are fond of using endearing nicknames, I believe.

[Puccini]

3 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Has anyone looked up the name on the actual airport building I thought think the sign reads ท่าอากาศยานสุวรรณภูทิ port aeroplane Suwannapum...Also other airports even squeeze สนามบิน in as well, which seems completely redundant.

 

I have seen that also internationally, the local word designating the function of the building is added to the airport's name on the building, for example:

 

Leonardo Da Vinci airport

Charles De Gaulle airport

Shannon airport

Vancouver airport

Narita airport

 

 

[tgeezer]

I thought so. Thai put the adjective after the noun but Sandscrit seems to do the opposite so what to call this 'new invention? ยานอากาศ conveyance air, but both words are Sandscrit so 'air conveyance' อากาศยาน is correct. สุวรรณถูมิ is Sandscrit too but a 'proper noun' so the official name is as on the sign 'Port aircraft Suwanapum'.

Thai for aeroplane เครื่องบิน device fly, and for airfield สนามบิน field fly. That would appear to make the generic name for devices which fly is อากาศยาน . I don't know how balloons and airships were handled linguistically but from the definition of เครื่อง I see that a glider is เครื่องร่อน .


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