DSL surge protector

[janclaes47]

After 6 routers sent to heaven in the past 18 months, 2 in the past 2 weeks, it's time to get a surge protector for my ADSL line.

 

What works and is economic in price.

 

Does this work for example?

 

[Jai Dee]

I suspect that putting the ADSL cable through an anti-surge or over voltage protection device such as those you have pictured would possibly introduce the potential for extra noise and result in a reduction in throughput.

 

Lightning can cause damage in the telephone-line-interface circuitry even if it does not hit the wires directly.

 

It is possible to protect the telephone-line-interface from indirect lightning hits with overvoltage protection measures.

 

Proper protection is a combination of right grounding practices on the whole house and suitable protection devices connected to the telephone line.

 

Did your routers die from telephone line surges or power line surges?

 

I would recommend a power line surge protector which includes telecom lines protection such as this from Lazada.

 

 

[janclaes47]

Router died from telephone line surges.

 

Every time there is lightning in my area it cost me a router.

 

Yesterday I heard the router blow up in the storage room while I was at the pc.

 

Other electrical appliances didn't give a blimp

[Jai Dee]

I would give the Leonics protector a go.

 

For 1800 baht it's worth a try.

[janclaes47]

Oh yeah, I now see it has a dsl connection, hadn't noticed that earlier.

 

I had searched for something similar on Lazada, since APC has also such a device but more extensive , but couldn't find something like that on Lazada.

 

Thanks for the link

 

[janclaes47]

2 hours ago, Jai Dee said:

I suspect that putting the ADSL cable through an anti-surge or over voltage protection device such as those you have pictured would possibly introduce the potential for extra noise and result in a reduction in throughput.

 

Lightning can cause damage in the telephone-line-interface circuitry even if it does not hit the wires directly.

 

It is possible to protect the telephone-line-interface from indirect lightning hits with overvoltage protection measures.

 

Proper protection is a combination of right grounding practices on the whole house and suitable protection devices connected to the telephone line.

 

Did your routers die from telephone line surges or power line surges.?

 

I would recommend a power line surge protector which includes telecom lines protection such as this from Lazada.

 

 

 

 

Look here, the same strip from the same seller on Lazada but 410 Baht cheaper. Do I overlook something?

 

It even seems to have coaxial protection, so more options.

 

http://www.lazada.co.th/tps-homecompact-11922841.html?ff=1

Edited April 2, 2017 by janclaes47

[Jai Dee]

That one appears to be well discounted (23%) but it is slightly different.

 

2 channels of signal surge protection for protecting against surge entering the signal lines (1 channel for Tel/Fax/Modem and 1 channel for CATV 70 Volt)

 

So 1 x Tel/ADSL in/out ports and 1 x coax in/out port.

 

The undiscounted one I linked to before has  2 x Tel/ADSL in/out posts.

[janclaes47]

4 minutes ago, Jai Dee said:

That one appears to be well discounted (23%) but it is slightly different.

 

2 channels of signal surge protection for protecting against surge entering the signal lines (1 channel for Tel/Fax/Modem and 1 channel for CATV 70 Volt)

 

So 1 x Tel/ADSL in/out ports and 1 x coax in/out port.

 

The undiscounted one I linked to before has  2 x Tel/ADSL in/out posts.

Thanks, but since I have only 1 adsl that will suffice for me, so I'll save the extra 410 Baht.

 

Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction in the first place.

[Pib]

3 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

Router died from telephone line surges.

 

Every time there is lightning in my area it cost me a router.

 

Yesterday I heard the router blow up in the storage room while I was at the pc.

 

Other electrical appliances didn't give a blimp

If other electrical/electronics in your house are not dying during thunderstorms and it's just your DSL router, then the electrical surge from the lightning is just riding in on the DSL/phone line....very common.  Get yourself a DSL/phone line surge protector as shown in the opening post.  You can find them pretty easy and low cost...I bought my two at an Among Electric store....I have them on my two phone lines....one of which use to be a DSL line years back when I was on ADSL....I too lost a router and couple of things connected to the router during a lightning storm...and I lost the power adapter on the cordless phone downstairs on the other line....the lightning strike surge rode in on the phone lines.

 

But keep in mind even with a DSL/phone line surge protector if the lines in your area are poorly protected from electrical/lightning surges all the surge protector will do is decrease the surge energy level getting to your router; not completely eliminate it.  But hopefully reduce it enough to save you DSL router and other devices connected to the router.

 

The protector shouldn't affect your DSL line performance because basically all that is in them is a "varister" and maybe a coil, resister and light depending on how fancy of a protector you buy....but the varister is doing the bulk of the surge protection.   A varister is an electronic component that "shorts" itself in microseconds when a overvoltage (surge) hits it which shunts the surge; once the surge has passed in a few micro or milliseconds the varister returns to its normal state which is open.   The shunting actually happens "across" the two wires in DSL/phone line since there is not third ground wire to shunt to....attempting to equalize the voltage between the two wires which results in a lower high voltage "difference" between the two lines which will hopefully save your device.   It kinda operates like a really faster circuit breaker that automatically resets itself.

 

For a surge protector used on electrical lines the best ones have varisters/surge protection in 3 modes....Mode 1 - Line to Neutral, Mode 2 - Line to Ground, and Mode 3 Neutral to Ground.  Cheaper ones will just do one mode such as Line to Neutral mode or Line to Ground mode.

 

 

[wpcoe]

Is an indirect lightning strike a worry with fibre (FTTH) lines?   Or,  a direct lightning strike, say hitting a pole that the fibre passes along?

[Pib]

Not a worry w

19 minutes ago, wpcoe said:

Is an indirect lightning strike a worry with fibre (FTTH) lines?   Or,  a direct lightning strike, say hitting a pole that the fibre passes along?

Not a worry in fiber optics "all the way" to your router since there is no conductive material used in the fiber optics line...nothing to conduct a voltage surge to your router.   Well, some fiber optics lines do use a metal "message wire(s)" to add strength to the line for  support since fiber lines many times to be run long distances between poles.  But that metal messenger line is not used to conduct any signal to/from your router....and that message wire is usually cut away for the last X-meters to your router so the fiber optics line can be super flexible. But even if not cut away that messenger wire does not make any electrical connection to your router.  Other kinds of fiber optics line don't use a metal messenger wire, but strong non-conductive material.

 

Summary:  no worry with fiber "all the way" to your router; but if it's fiber "almost" all the way and then turns into xDSL for the last X-meters, well, xDSL run over copper phone lines which conducts electricity very well if a lightning strike gets into that copper line part.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Pib

[wpcoe]

Thanks.  My condo has a continuous fiber line run from somewhere in the bowels of the building directly to my living room wall, so that's one less thing to be paranoid about.

 

Speaking of condos, if there's a nearby lightning strike, could if fry all the ADSL modems in a high-rise condo building?

[Pib]

Well, I doubt it would fry all nor how many it might fry...all depends on the grounding and surge protection built into the building...condition of wiring in the building....whether the lightning surge was inductive or a direct strike, and just a variety of things. 

[janclaes47]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

But keep in mind even with a DSL/phone line surge protector if the lines in your area are poorly protected from electrical/lightning surges all the surge protector will do is decrease the surge energy level getting to your router; not completely eliminate it.

I hear you, so my question is, will the device that Jaidee linked to do a better job at that?

[Pib]

Hard telling.  The device JaiDee linked to is a combination surge protector for electrical lines plus cable TV and xDSL/phone lines.  It all depends on the quality & design of the surge protection circuity.  

 

Like all the 70V rating on the CATV surge protection means is the surge protection circuitry/varister is designed to "just begin" to suppress any surge voltage 70V or higher on the CATV line.  By "just begin" I mean it will "start to shunt" a surge by a small amount but will not reach full shunting until the voltage reaches around 600V where it will try to clamp the voltage to no higher than that.   That rating is based on surge with a 8 micro second rise time and pulse width of 20 microseconds....remember lighting surges are very, very brief in time....micro to milliseconds....they are very short duration "pulses" of electricity.    But while they may be very high voltage since they are so very brief in time the circuity can easily handle that pulsed high power level for a brief moment in time.  

 

But say somehow a 220V line voltage somehow shorts to that cable TV line (or xDSL), that 220V is basically a "continuous" voltage which would burn out the surge protector protection circuitry within a few seconds.  That why a good surge protector will also have a fusing system similar to the old style fuse or thermal fuse that simple blows for any high continuous voltage/amperage to ensure your surge protect does not turn into a dead short, catch on fire, etc.

 

Many surge expensive surge protectors really are not any better than lower cost surge protectors....and some surge protectors have words on their packaging that really impress the layman with rating/specs the layman really don't have a clue what they mean, but the rating/specs sure sound impressive especially when some lightning bolts are included on the packaging....makes the customer think they are completely protected from surges if I buy this surge protector.   It all depends on the quality & design of the surge protection circuity.  

 

 

Example combo surge protector specs

Edited April 2, 2017 by Pib

[janclaes47]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

Hard telling.  The device JaiDee linked to is a combination surge protector for electrical lines plus cable TV and xDSL/phone lines.  It all depends on the quality & design of the surge protection circuity.  

 

Like all the 70V rating on the CATV surge protection means is the surge protection circuitry/varister is designed to "just begin" to suppress any surge voltage 70V or higher on the CATV line.  By "just begin" I mean it will "start to shunt" a surge by a small amount but will not reach full shunting until the voltage reaches around 600V where it will try to clamp the voltage to no higher than that.   That rating is based on surge with a 8 micro second rise time and pulse width of 20 microseconds....remember lighting surges are very, very brief in time....micro to milliseconds....they are very short duration "pulses" of electricity.    But while they may be very high voltage since they are so very brief in time the circuity can easily handle that pulsed high power level for a brief moment in time.  

 

But say somehow a 220V line voltage somehow shorts to that cable TV line (or xDSL), that 220V is basically a "continuous" voltage which would burn out the surge protector protection circuitry within a few seconds.  That why a good surge protector will also have a fusing system similar to the old style fuse or thermal fuse that simple blows for any high continuous voltage/amperage to ensure your surge protect does not turn into a dead short, catch on fire, etc.

 

Many surge expensive surge protectors really are not any better than lower cost surge protectors....and some surge protectors have words on their packaging that really impress the layman with rating/specs the layman really don't have a clue what they mean, but the rating/specs sure sound impressive especially when some lightning bolts are included on the packaging....makes the customer think they are completely protected from surges if I buy this surge protector.   It all depends on the quality & design of the surge protection circuity.  

 

Ok, so will a UPS with dsl surge protection do a better job?

 

My point is, my routers cost between 4-5000 Baht, and I'm tired of losing them every 3 months.

 

A lightning last year cost me over 50K in damage to devices connected to the network, so I'm tired of that now and don't want it to happen again, but also don't want to spend unnecessary money if the protection isn't any better.

[Pib]

It all depends on the quality & design of the surge protection circuity built into the UPS for the power line voltage and any other circuity (cable TV,  xDSL, ethernet, etc) built into that USP.  

 

A UPS's main function is to keep AC power flowing to your plugged in devices.  Surge protection is a secondary function and will depend on the quality/design of the surge protection built into the UPS.    

[janclaes47]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

It all depends on the quality & design of the surge protection circuity built into the UPS for the power line voltage and any other circuity (cable TV,  xDSL, ethernet, etc) built into that USP.  

 

A UPS's main function is to keep AC power flowing to your plugged in devices.  Surge protection is a secondary function and will depend on the quality/design of the surge protection built into the UPS.    

 

How can I determine the quality?

[Pib]

It's hard.  You just need to dig into the specs (if you understand them), try to find some independent reviews, etc.  But with all the companies making surge protectors (probably thousands) and quoting durn near similar surge protection specs it can be hard to determine.

 

It's like many of the lower cost power strips which advertise surge protection.  When you open up that power strip you may find just "one each varister" across the Live and Neutral lines (a two wire power strip)....if it's a three wire power strip that single varister may be from Live to Ground/Earth...or it's still between  Live to Neutral.  I've opened quite a few power strips I've bought to see what's inside and put better and more varisters....varisters are dirt cheap.   The more pricey power strips usually have an induction coil, thermal fusing, maybe a light to show the surge protection circuitry is not blown/is working, and better quality varisters.   A varister's more technical name is Metal Oxide Varister (MOV).

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Pib

[westom]

10 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

How can I determine the quality?

Start by learning well proven science.  Most of those devices are recommended only because advertising (for some reason) replaces well proven science principles.

 

An AT&T Forum discussed this topic.  These concepts can then be followed with numerous spec and numbers from the fewer who actually did this stuff - today as it was done 100 years ago.

Quote

"How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges?": 
Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...

 

Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to protect downstream equipment.

 

Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the process. ...

 

Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from damage. ...

 

By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against surges which enter from the power company's service entrance feed. These types of protectors can absorb/pass considerably more energy than any other type of protector, and if one does catastrophically fail, it will not typically be in a living space. ...

 

Plug in strip protectors are, at best, a compromise. At worst, they may cause more damage than they prevent. While they may do an acceptable job of handling hot to neutral surges, they do a poor job of handling any surge that must be passed to ground. ...

 

Then, to add insult to injury, some strip protectors add Telco and/or LAN surge protection within the same device, trying to be an all-in-one sale.  Remember bonding? When Telco or LAN protection is added to a strip protector, if the premise ground, which is not designed to handle surges, cannot handle all of the energy, guess where that excess energy seeks out the additional grounds? You got it! The Telco and LAN connections now becomes the path, with disastrous results to those devices. ...

Some simple numbers apply.  Protection is always defined by an answer to this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  As well understood and stated above, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[JSixpack]

11 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

How can I determine the quality?

 

GIYF. Read reviews & recommendations on the tech sites, buy the most similar you can find in Thailand. Sorted.

Edited April 3, 2017 by JSixpack

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, westom said:

Start by learning well proven science.  Most of those devices are recommended only because advertising (for some reason) replaces well proven science principles.

 

An AT&T Forum discussed this topic.  These concepts can then be followed with numerous spec and numbers from the fewer who actually did this stuff - today as it was done 100 years ago.

Some simple numbers apply.  Protection is always defined by an answer to this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  As well understood and stated above, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

I try to understand your post, especially the part you quoted.

 

Do I understand correctly that the whole extensive quote is about power surge protection, which is not the problem in my case, and that effective ADSL surge protectors in fact don't exist?

 

Are there any ADSL surge protectors with a grounding, if so I haven't found them, and according to the quote a grounded power strip with ADSL ports does more harm than good.

 

Is that correct?

 

EDIT :

 

OK I found these grounded surge protectores. Would this be my best option according to the AT&T forum?

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by janclaes47

[westom]

12 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

OK I found these grounded surge protectores. Would this be my best option according to the AT&T forum?

 

That is the concept.  But that protector is (I believe - don't have its spec numbers) is for ethernet.  That protector is essential at each  ethernet cable when connecting between two buildings.  But as noted (and what always defines quality) is numbers.

 

Protector must be on the incoming DSL wire to modem - not on its outgoing ethernet port.

 

Numbers for DSL must also include parameters for POTS (conventional phone) that might also be on that incoming DSL wire.  A DSL protector must have low capacitance to not subvert DSL (radio frequency) signals. It must not quash a phone's ringer signal - so it might need be over 300 volts.  But if cable is a dry line (only DSL), then different numbers apply.

 

DSL protection is usually provided for free by the telco in many nations.  Since provided by the telco, then the market for DSL to private individuals is smaller. Some examples of DSL protector providers:

http://search.l-com.com/search?keywords=dsl+protector

 

This one is for POTS/DSL lines (let-through voltage is 260 volts).  It says it is for DSL, but it provides no number for low capacitance.  So I cannot say it is good for DSL:

http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/product/PTEL2_APC/apc-protectnet-standalone-surge-protector-for-analog-dsl-phone-lines-(2-lines%2C-4-wires)

 

Oringinally cited protector does have a critical item.  That green wire, connected less than three meters to single point earth ground, means surges on all eight ethernet wires are connected to earth.  How good is that connection?  Parameter such as capacitance, trigger or let-through voltage, and size of the protector (how much current) would explain why a protector for ethernet might not be appropriate for DSL.

 

Another concern.  What happens to a surge entering on  AC mains?  If not earthed at the service entrance (by a properly earthed 'whole house' protector), then that surge is inside hunting for earth ground.  One superb path might be into a DSL modem.  Then outgoing to earth via that DSL protector.  Protection of a modem's the DSL wire means every other incoming wire must also make a low impedance connection to earth.

 

TV cable is easy.  A hardwire from TV cable to earth means a surge, incoming on TV cable, will not damage the DSL port on a DSL modem.  Even wires between two separate buildings must connect to earth directly or via a protector.  Otherwise a DSL modem (and every other household appliance) is at risk.

 

Either a surge enters a house to hunt for earth destructively via appliances.  Or every incoming wires makes a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection - all to the same earthing electrode.

 

That ethernet protector may not have a low capacitance type protector.  So it would subvert DSL signals.  A DSL protector must have a low capacitance (often semiconductor) protector to connect each DSL copper wire to that common earth ground (green and yellow) wire.

 

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, westom said:

But that protector is (I believe - don't have its spec numbers) is for ethernet.

Yes that picture is for the Ethernet protector, but below is the RJ-11 equivalent and the spec. I have no telephone line, only ADSL.

 

Can you tell me if this is suitable?

 

 

• Nominal working voltage Un=< 150V
• Max continuous operation voltage Uc: 150V
• Nominal Discharge Current (8/20μs) In: 5KA
• Maximum Discharge Current (8/20μs) Imax: 10KA
• Protection Level up (10/700/μs): <250V
• Insertion loss dB: <=0.5dB
• Transmission rate Vs:2M
• Bandwidth FG: (0.3~10)M
• Response time Ta:<=1ns
• Dimensions: 83 x 26 x 26 mm
• Case Material : Aluminum shield
• Interface type: RJ11
• Protection level: IP20
• Temperature Range: -25 °C ~ +65 °C 
• Relative humidity: <=95%

Edited April 3, 2017 by janclaes47

[westom]

That FSPD-RJ11-Tele/4S numbers are all good for DSL with phone service. It would also be sufficient for a 'dry' DSL line (ie yours).  Only missing parameter is capacitance.  I would suspect it is low.  But they do not define capacitance and do not define protector technology.  So I can only suspect it is sufficient.

 

It says power levels will drop by less than 0.5 dB.  But is does not say at what frequencies that number applies - audio (phone) or DSL (radio).

 

Earth that on your DSL line.  Then view ADSL modem power levels on that modem's status pages.  If a protector has low capacitance, then dB power levels will remain unchanged.  You would be good to go.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by westom

[janclaes47]

2 hours ago, westom said:

That FSPD-RJ11-Tele/4S numbers are all good for DSL with phone service. It would also be sufficient for a 'dry' DSL line (ie yours).  Only missing parameter is capacitance.  I would suspect it is low.  But they do not define capacitance and do not define protector technology.  So I can only suspect it is sufficient.

 

It says power levels will drop by less than 0.5 dB.  But is does not say at what frequencies that number applies - audio (phone) or DSL (radio).

 

Earth that on your DSL line.  Then view ADSL modem power levels on that modem's status pages.  If a protector has low capacitance, then dB power levels will remain unchanged.  You would be good to go.

 

Thanks the item is listed on Ebay and they aren't great at providing extensive specification.

 

It's only 385 Bht, so I'll give it a try and once installed I'll give some feedback here regarding the power levels.

 

There are others listed at half the price, but none of them have any spec listed.

[Gary A]

If you have a house, a small solar system eliminates all the problems. I got tired of buying gadgets and UPS units to protect my computer system. I have two solar panels, a MPPT charge controller an inverter and four sealed 65 AH deep cycle batteries. About three and a half years now and no glitches or problems at all. I have doubts if the system will ever pay for itself but my computer room is totally off the grid with stable voltage.

[westom]

33 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

There are others listed at half the price, but none of them have any spec listed.

No specifications is a first indication of a bogus product - maybe a scam.  Specification are the only spot a manufacturer must be honest.

 

I also noticed current numbers (how large a surge can be without causing protector damage) tended to be higher with that protector.  If I recall, on the order of 1000 amps.

 

[westom]

2 minutes ago, Gary A said:

If you have a house, a small solar system eliminates all the problems. 

Mine only has eight planets.

 

Oh.

 

 Much discussed here is also actively discussed by solar electric installers.  Powering from solar arrays does not eliminate a threat for multiple reasons. Those solar arrays remain at risk.  Lightning rods (that protect arrays) and protector (to protect inverter), both properly earthed, are standard features in a properly installed system.

 

If any other incoming wire (cable TV, telephone, wire to a remote controlled gate, etc) is not integrated in that protection system, then a DSL modem or TV  HDMI port may still suffer surge damage. 

 

[Gary A]

Perhaps I have over simplified it. A friend of mine lost several computers and modems from lightning strikes. Most were caused from his telephone line and a few from the power grid. Most times he was never aware of a lightning strike and never even heard it but his equipment got fried. I don't have a telephone line and get my Internet from an air card. It may be possible that my solar panels could be hit but power lines and huge trees are likely to take the strike so I don't worry about it. Fiber optic lines also eliminate a lot of problems.

 

I should have added that my UPS units got a major workout. The electric grid here has gotten better over the past few years but lately we have power failures nearly every day, Some for only a few seconds but some are longer and sometimes much longer. My wife had an old computer that she and her nephews used to play games. It was powered from the grid and she was quite aggravated when there was a just a few second blip. The main board failed on her computer for some reason and the computer wasn't worth fixing. Was it a power spike, lightning or a normal equipment failure? Who knows.