Trump says chemical attack in Syria crossed many lines

[Peterw42]

Its not a Goodies verses Badees fight. 

 

 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Andaman Al said:

I completely understand your sentiments regarding the use of chemical weapons Vs conventional weapons to achieve the objective of killing people. When innocents are killed there should be outrage regardless of the method used. There is very little chance of escape from a chemical weapon if you are in the 'zone'. One thing to remember is that this stuff is not available down at your local weapons dealer 'Guns and Bombs R Us' and tends to only come (funnily enough) from the 5 members of the UN Permanent Security Council (and one other country that cares little for the UN and what it has to say). They sell it, they control it and they express the 'faux outrage' when it is used.

 

The political games being played at the moment between the US, Russia, China are extremely complex and something does not add up at all about Assad using chemical weapons. He had absolutely NO REASON, it makes no sense. They have the co-operation and operational support of Russia and Trump had just given them (Syrians) their extra time ticket by stating that Assad was no longer a priority for regime replacement. After 5 years of brutal conflict and the destruction of a once jewel of the Middle East, Assad would have sat down with a large brandy, breathed a sigh of relief and said 'thank freak for that'. Instead we are now led to believe his first actions are - "okay we have a stay of execution from the USA, so lets wheel out the chemical weapons that will have every country possible wanting to slit my throat after they have sent in cruise missile attacks to destroy what is left of the country". Much as I want to believe it was Assad I simply cannot. The easiest thing would be to blame him and go to the next step but it makes no sense at all. The alternatives are far more sinister. Either Russia or the US giving the rebels the weapons and a truck full of money for a 'special mission'. Whatever happened we are never going to see the truth we will just bear witness to the carnage that will no doubt follow, probably to suit the temporary political requirements of whoever really instigated the dreadful attack.

The detail refutes your speculation.

 

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/

[lifeincnx]

11 hours ago, edwinchester said:

I think Trumps Syrian red line will be in exactly the same place as Obama's Syrian red line.

Except Trump said this crossed may lines, so we must assume his lines will have the best colors.

[Andaman Al]

50 minutes ago, simple1 said:

The detail refutes your speculation.

 

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/

So lets be totally honest then The link you provide does not refute speculation by either me or anyone else. It provides no evidence of who did or did not carry out the attack. Indeed at one point the original video put out was titled 'an attack by Russian Airforce". The link provides plenty of evidence of what occurred medically and in hospitals but NOT accurate details of an attack. The information provided is in fact conflicting. So we remain at square one. I am all for the exposure and punishment of those concerned. I suggest with so much at stake and the current political intrigue, you and everyone else keeps an open mind until irrefutable evidence is in fact provided. Hundreds of thousands of lives could depend on getting this call accurate and right.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Andaman Al

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Whos side will america help ? The Syrian Government, the Kurdish forces, The rebel forces. 

As long as Assad goes.  Perhaps all 3. No easy answers. But the violence has to stop. 

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Its not a Goodies verses Badees fight. 

 

 

Control of territory doesn't make you one of the goodies. Killing of innocent civilians definitely makes you one of the baddies.

[tonray]

I don't think Assad's father, who was a real strongman, left structures in place where his son is completely in charge. He may be complicit but I don't fully believe the security apparatus is completely under his control. He is a weak leader as evidenced by the situation at hand. Is he guilty ? Yes he is, but I don't think he is stupid enough to order chemical attacks, I think he is rather powerless to prevent them.

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Control of territory doesn't make you one of the goodies. Killing of innocent civilians definitely makes you one of the baddies.

Yes I agree, but there are so many factions etc, hard to know who did what to whom, and even did they try and make it look like someone else did it. 

[Thorgal]

Its not a Goodies verses Badees fight. 
 
 

There are at least as many 'badees' ouside this map.

Good starting point is the obligations to the Munich Declaration of the Duties and Rights of Journalists which was signed in 1971.

http://www.mediawise.org.uk/european-union/


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Andaman Al]

24 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Killing of innocent civilians definitely makes you one of the baddies.

Careful Craig, that statement could take you into very difficult territory (pun not intended). Saddam kills 15000 kurds - baddie, US Coalition forces kill  250 000 Iraqi's - goodie?? really? Again it is a time for honesty. Nobody is looking good in any of this conflict. Are we so concerned about humanity? Did we all leap in and start saving Africans - Rwandans from genocide - nope because they have nothing we in the West currently want, we left despotic leaders to murder a rumoured 800k-1 MILLION people in just 100 days. Then Syria rears it's head with lots of oil and we are in there like flies around s**t.

 

There is NOTHING for us to be proud of in what our Governments do and the fact they trade the lives of our sons and daughters in the military, in conflicts that are NOTHING to do with anything other than feeding the Petrochemical multinationals is a disgrace that we all seem to accept. Tens of thousands of people had both hands hacked off in Sierra Leone to stop them voting (where was our precious value on supporting democracy then?)  and the world did nothing, now we get a hundred innocents killed in an incredibly complex region of the world and we are calling for an all out military strike without even establishing the facts. Hundreds of thousands of civilians would be sentenced to death with such an offensive. The first thing we need to do as rational humans is say "hang on a minute with everything that has just happened in the last 6 months, this makes no sense" - and start from there. If indeed a war crime has been committed then get a specialist UN team in to establish facts and then we hit those responsible with all we have. The question remains - who will we be hitting? I do not think this is as simple as our Governments would want us to believe. Assad has nothing to gain and everything to lose by using chemical weapons. There are some vested interests that have a LOT to gain by saying Assad has used chemical weapons.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Andaman Al

[Scott]

One clearly off-topic and totally false post has been removed. 

[Gary A]

There is no doubt that chemical weapons have been used. What I find hard to believe is that Assad was responsible. I cannot believe that he would be stupid enough to turn the entire western world against him. As we know by now, rabid terrorists place no value on human life They would have no problem killing their own people to make Assad look guilty. The main problem is it will be difficult to find the truth with that entire area in turmoil.

[sujoop]

2 hours ago, Gary A said:

There is no doubt that chemical weapons have been used. What I find hard to believe is that Assad was responsible. I cannot believe that he would be stupid enough to turn the entire western world against him. As we know by now, rabid terrorists place no value on human life They would have no problem killing their own people to make Assad look guilty. The main problem is it will be difficult to find the truth with that entire area in turmoil.

So, you are therefore saying that 'terrorists' somehow commandeered a few aircraft and launched a chemical gas attack from the air? (as it has been determined this was the most likely delivery method: 'most likely caused by sarin nerve gas dropped by aircraft'). Agreed that Assad likely isn't behind it though. So, not terrorists, not Assad... That leaves Putin. From the Whitehouse to Syria, all roads lead to and from master Putin. You'll have to ask yourself why but to others it's obvious in context.

[Morch]

12 hours ago, malibukid said:

take out Assads air capability. this could be accomplished with coordinated air strikes. we have the intel on this.  i am sure we also have the intel on the chemical weapons strike as well.  nothing flies in Syria without this. eyes in the sky.

but Dump will do nothing.

 

Never mind the legalities, but there's also the little matter of Russia being in the neighborhood, and the danger of such hypothetical attacks to bring about a larger confrontation. Add the tendency of such operations not to go 100% as planned, and blowing up them stockpiles of chemical weapons possibly leading to horrible consequences. Probably a no go at this phase.

[Andaman Al]

34 minutes ago, sujoop said:

So, you are therefore saying that 'terrorists' somehow commandeered a few aircraft and launched a chemical gas attack from the air? (as it has been determined this was the most likely delivery method: 'most likely caused by sarin nerve gas dropped by aircraft'). Agreed that Assad likely isn't behind it though. So, not terrorists, not Assad... That leaves Putin. From the Whitehouse to Syria, all roads lead to and from master Putin. You'll have to ask yourself why but to others it's obvious in context.

This was NOT Sarin. Sarin is a persistent agent. Throughout all my time in the military going through endless decontamination drills, one thing was for sure. Sarin stuck around and anybody touching any surface that the sarin had contaminated was a goner for sure if they were not correctly protected, and that is not just respirators but gloves, suits etc etc. Skin contact would be fatal. Yet here we see medical staff carrying people around, in the contaminated area shortly after. If it were Sarin they would be dead. Furthermore there is talk about craters. The explosives used to disperse the chemical weapon would not be so strong as to make craters as otherwise there is a risk that it would be so powerful it would destroy the chemical it is trying to lay down in the area.

 

Looking at the medical effects chances are this gas was chlorine. Now there has already been a version of events that stated that ISIS had a cache of Chlorine. If we have a Mig 22 overhead (which I do not even think can carry chemical weapons) then if they were firing normal munitions we would get craters and if as they claim they were attacking a munitions dump belonging to ISIS and they hit it then there is a very good chance that chlorine was released. I will stick my neck out and say that is the most likely cause of this tragedy. It was not Sarin, and with the evidence being presented as 'cratering' I do not believe it was an air dropped chemical weapon.

 

 

[Morch]

23 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

This was NOT Sarin. Sarin is a persistent agent. Throughout all my time in the military going through endless decontamination drills, one thing was for sure. Sarin stuck around and anybody touching any surface that the sarin had contaminated was a goner for sure if they were not correctly protected, and that is not just respirators but gloves, suits etc etc. Skin contact would be fatal. Yet here we see medical staff carrying people around, in the contaminated area shortly after. If it were Sarin they would be dead. Furthermore there is talk about craters. The explosives used to disperse the chemical weapon would not be so strong as to make craters as otherwise there is a risk that it would be so powerful it would destroy the chemical it is trying to lay down in the area.

 

Looking at the medical effects chances are this gas was chlorine. Now there has already been a version of events that stated that ISIS had a cache of Chlorine. If we have a Mig 22 overhead (which I do not even think can carry chemical weapons) then if they were firing normal munitions we would get craters and if as they claim they were attacking a munitions dump belonging to ISIS and they hit it then there is a very good chance that chlorine was released. I will stick my neck out and say that is the most likely cause of this tragedy. It was not Sarin, and with the evidence being presented as 'cratering' I do not believe it was an air dropped chemical weapon.

 

 

 

Agreed it's more likely chlorine, for the reasons listed, and also because it's easily available, and by now, pretty much a norm (unlike using sarin).

 

Chlorine was used numerous times by the Assad regimes in aerial attacks. That his opponents have access to it as well is probably true, but then they do not carry out aerial attacks. A crater (if the report is correct) could have been caused by barrel bomb (usually dropped from a helicopter), from other conventional munitions, or indeed, from hitting a target which exploded. If there is such a crater, there is a possibility that it's pattern could be used to determine the cause.

 

I think the Syrian Air Force did have some capability to deliver such bombs from, say, a Su-22/MiG-23/Su-24 - but doubt these would be associated with use of chlorine.

[Gulfsailor]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Agreed it's more likely chlorine, for the reasons listed, and also because it's easily available, and by now, pretty much a norm (unlike using sarin).

 

Chlorine was used numerous times by the Assad regimes in aerial attacks. That his opponents have access to it as well is probably true, but then they do not carry out aerial attacks. A crater (if the report is correct) could have been caused by barrel bomb (usually dropped from a helicopter), from other conventional munitions, or indeed, from hitting a target which exploded. If there is such a crater, there is a possibility that it's pattern could be used to determine the cause.

 

I think the Syrian Air Force did have some capability to deliver such bombs from, say, a Su-22/MiG-23/Su-24 - but doubt these would be associated with use of chlorine.

Us military claims they have footage showing a Syrian fixed wing aircraft dropped barrels on the hospital. 

 

Ps. News is now breaking that Trump has ordered missile attacks against Assad and wants to create no fly zones in Syria. I guess Putin backed down and is cutting Assad lose. 

[simple1]

7 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

So lets be totally honest then The link you provide does not refute speculation by either me or anyone else. It provides no evidence of who did or did not carry out the attack. Indeed at one point the original video put out was titled 'an attack by Russian Airforce". The link provides plenty of evidence of what occurred medically and in hospitals but NOT accurate details of an attack. The information provided is in fact conflicting. So we remain at square one. I am all for the exposure and punishment of those concerned. I suggest with so much at stake and the current political intrigue, you and everyone else keeps an open mind until irrefutable evidence is in fact provided. Hundreds of thousands of lives could depend on getting this call accurate and right.

I was responding to your speculation of rebel forces involvement, As I currently understand, the killing agent was delivered by air.Turkey is now claiming Sarin was the killing agent, have to wait and see if WHO or whoever confirms Turkey's finding.

Edited April 6, 2017 by simple1

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.   The topic is about a chemical attack in Syria.    Stay on topic.  

[Rhys]

12 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

America are not the world police. What right do they have to interfere in another country, good or bad.

 

 

..haven't you heard, their is an idiot for a president now..

Edited April 6, 2017 by Rhys

[craigt3365]

9 hours ago, Gary A said:

There is no doubt that chemical weapons have been used. What I find hard to believe is that Assad was responsible. I cannot believe that he would be stupid enough to turn the entire western world against him. As we know by now, rabid terrorists place no value on human life They would have no problem killing their own people to make Assad look guilty. The main problem is it will be difficult to find the truth with that entire area in turmoil.

He's used chemical weapons before.  Several times.  It was an airborne attack and rebels don't have aircraft.  He's stupid enough to totally ruin his country.  Why not stupid enough to do this?  He's got Russia protecting him and feels he's untouchable.  The entire western world is condemning this.  I can guarantee the leaders of the free world have more info on this that is being published.  All indicators point towards Assad.  Don't forget, the US knows about every aircraft flying in that area, and every bomb strike.  Details are just not published.  For good reasons.

 

Plus, we've now got testimony from eye witnesses on the ground.  Too many saying the same thing for it to be anything different. 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/tillerson-assad-syria-sot-nr.cnn

 

Quote

 

Tillerson: No doubt Assad is responsible

Newsroom

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson says there is no doubt that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is responsible for the gas attack in Syria.

Source: CNN

 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-survivors-wedeman-dnt-erin.cnn

 

Quote

 

Syrian survivors detail moment of attack

Erin Burnett Out Front

Survivors of the deadly strike in Syria describe the moment of the attack as they watched their loved ones and neighbors slip away.

 

 

Tillerson is now saying Assad has to go.  About time.

[Orac]

So either Assad has been an absolute idiot and turn much of the western world against him just days after it seemed he was getting somewhere with concessions from the US and others that maybe he could stay in power in the future by deploying chemical weapons though, from above comments, it is not clear what the chemicals were and there are valid questions over how they were delivered not to mention the comparatively low body count for a chemical attack on a population centre. Or someone has cleverly manipulated the US from accepting Assad's control of Syria to making military strikes against him.

I am not convinced that Assad isn't involved here in some way but, can't help but feel there is something very fishy about this compounded by the fact that there are now not really any reliable sources for information and even a statement from the US president carries hardly any weight.

[craigt3365]

 

 

[Gary A]

Assad may be a horrible leader but keep in mind that it takes a strong, ruthless, cruel leader to control lunatics. We have apparently learned nothing from Iraq and Libya. Removing this guy would create another power vacuum. We haven't done very well in Afghanistan either. We have crush ISIS and then allow the Middle East countries to manage themselves.

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, Gary A said:

Assad may be a horrible leader but keep in mind that it takes a strong, ruthless, cruel leader to control lunatics. We have apparently learned nothing from Iraq and Libya. Removing this guy would create another power vacuum. We haven't done very well in Afghanistan either. We have crush ISIS and then allow the Middle East countries to manage themselves.

That's a horrible argument.  It takes a strong leader to make a country better.  Ruthless and cruel shouldn't be part of their CV.

 

Most Syrian people just want to live a normal life and raise their family.  They are far from lunatics.  Terrible thing to say.

[Gary A]

4 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

That's a horrible argument.  It takes a strong leader to make a country better.  Ruthless and cruel shouldn't be part of their CV.

 

Most Syrian people just want to live a normal life and raise their family.  They are far from lunatics.  Terrible thing to say.

 

What would happen to the remaining Christians in Syria if Assad is eliminated.

[billd766]

20 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

Can someone explain to me why it's worse to die in a chemical attack than to die in a bloody mangled mess after having your limbs blown off in a bomb attack? I know which way I'd rather die. Faux outrage here?

 

In my time in the military we used to have exercises including NBC, which is nuclear, biological and chemical warfare. Every couple of years we went through tear gas without a mask. We went into the chamber wearing the gas mask, took several deep breaths, were spun around a few times and the mask was taken off. Spun around again to disorient us and left to find out own way out. The stupid ones put the gas mask back on. A bad plan as it was full of tear gas.

I have also seen films of the effects of sarin, phosgene and mustard gas. Believe me having your limbs blown off is not a nice way to die but chemical poisoning is by far the worst.

Look up the history of WW1 and see what happened to troops on both sides when poison gas was used.

The Russians used chemical warfare in Afghanistan, the Turks used it against the Kurd's, now the Syrians are using it.

Why do you think that it has been banned by the UK especially against civilians?

[Gary A]

I now believe that it was Assad who ordered the chemical weapons attack. It is very likely that he is insane. I couldn't believe that he was stupid enough to cause such an atrocity. For Assad to turn the entire Western world against him is certainly insanity.

[Andaman Al]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

In my time in the military we used to have exercises including NBC, which is nuclear, biological and chemical warfare. Every couple of years we went through tear gas without a mask. We went into the chamber wearing the gas mask, took several deep breaths, were spun around a few times and the mask was taken off. Spun around again to disorient us and left to find out own way out. The stupid ones put the gas mask back on. A bad plan as it was full of tear gas.

I cannot believe you just wrote that, especially the last line. Were you in the Mickey Mouse Army? There was a specific way to clear a respirator, and the 'tear Gas' (CS) was simulating nerve agent. So what happened when you couldn't hold your breath any longer and couldn't find your way out?

[Andaman Al]

13 minutes ago, Gary A said:

I now believe that it was Assad who ordered the chemical weapons attack. It is very likely that he is insane. I couldn't believe that he was stupid enough to cause such an atrocity. For Assad to turn the entire Western world against him is certainly insanity.

So with all that said, why do you now think it was Assad?