Ex-staff changed company car ownership and got loan against it, car now being repossessed!

[madhav]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

In essence- the finance company if they have the car is in possession of stolen property. In addition to fraud; forgery and other things- the person filed a false police report all of which are crimes.  The system in Thailand does involve 'inviting' the accused to present their side of the story.  If they don't come in- the police will issue an arrest warrant and the accused will probably disappear and will remain dormant unless the police are 'persuaded' to pursue the accused.  Eventually, she will have to renew her Thai ID card.

This case will go on for a long time- unfortunately the rightful owner-the company will be without their property and the finance company without their money until the accused is caught; brought to trial and convicted.

What a mess.

Yes this is pretty much what we were told. The police issue a letter to demand their attendance. After three letters are sent then the police will go to arrest her. Yeah definitely, they won't go without some incentive. I am aware of this. However yes by this stage she will have been long gone. So in the end the whole thing is a mess.

[Thaidream]

If the police really want to find her they can- she has a Thai ID card; birth records and a bank account. It would take some leg work but if a person does a 'runner' most likely found in the families province. Possibly other people in the Company may know things about her also.  

One other point- normally the finance company would want pictures of the car- inside and out as well as an impression on paper of the vehicle ID number. I wonder how she managed to pull that off since the vehicle was in the Company possession. Normally, the finance company would send out their staff to do this verification.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think the big question is here:

 

Based on the value of the car and what you might reasonably expect to get back from the ex-employee in the end, is it going to be worth your and others' time and financial outlay and lawyer expenses, etc. to pursue this thing thru the system.  Which at the speed such things happen here, could be some years.

 

Not saying it isn't. But really wondering if the end result will justify the expense in time and money to get there.

[bazza73]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I think the big question is here:

 

Based on the value of the car and what you might reasonably expect to get back from the ex-employee in the end, is it going to be worth your and others' time and financial outlay and lawyer expenses, etc. to pursue this thing thru the system.  Which at the speed such things happen here, could be some years.

 

Not saying it isn't. But really wondering if the end result will justify the expense in time and money to get there.

Beat me to the question.

[madhav]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If the police really want to find her they can- she has a Thai ID card; birth records and a bank account. It would take some leg work but if a person does a 'runner' most likely found in the families province. Possibly other people in the Company may know things about her also.  

One other point- normally the finance company would want pictures of the car- inside and out as well as an impression on paper of the vehicle ID number. I wonder how she managed to pull that off since the vehicle was in the Company possession. Normally, the finance company would send out their staff to do this verification.

I know all the details of her house, her phone number, mother and grandparents home, all of it. But what good is this info? The police are the ones who must act, so unless they do, my knowledge of this information is useless.

 

She had access to the car the whole time, and funny enough she actually was paying off the loan, there were several repayments.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I think the big question is here:

 

Based on the value of the car and what you might reasonably expect to get back from the ex-employee in the end, is it going to be worth your and others' time and financial outlay and lawyer expenses, etc. to pursue this thing thru the system.  Which at the speed such things happen here, could be some years.

 

Not saying it isn't. But really wondering if the end result will justify the expense in time and money to get there.

Yes have thought about this. Something needs to be done. The car is worth at least 500k. If we let is go, need to buy a new one. Even if we pay the money back on her behalf, the car is technically still hers. So this avenue is useless also. Will need to get another car in the mean time while the process is in motion.

 

It is a good question though as the process is very energy consuming.

Edited April 22, 2017 by madhav

[Wake Up]

1 hour ago, colinneil said:

 Tall guy John you are 100% correct.

I lost a house/ car/ 2 motorbikes, because my ex along with a crooked lawyer and crooked police forged documents and lied in court.

What chance does a farang have against a crooked system??? A nswer NONE.

So the OP is lucky it was only a car.

Sorry for your loss. That must have been hard. I keep a list of reasons to never remarry again and you have provided me with a couple more good reasons. Take care. 

[grollies]

You haven't mentioned going after the lawyer who drew up the PoA. What's the score there?

[madhav]

1 hour ago, grollies said:

You haven't mentioned going after the lawyer who drew up the PoA. What's the score there?

POA can be done without a lawyer as far as I am aware. 

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, madhav said:

Yes this is pretty much what we were told. The police issue a letter to demand their attendance. After three letters are sent then the police will go to arrest her. Yeah definitely, they won't go without some incentive. I am aware of this. However yes by this stage she will have been long gone. So in the end the whole thing is a mess.

I think if a more significant 'donation' is made to the local MiB's social fund, the need for even one "letter of invitation" will be handily bypassed and they will pursue this thief with a bit more vigor. As it stands, any financial rewards for pursuing this will benefit either the OP's company or the finance company. There's no money in it for the cops to do anything worthwhile.

[Hereinthailand]

Write it off and forget about it. You will get no satisfaction from the legal system or finance company only more frustration anger and money spent for nothing. This is Thailand.

[kartman]

So the OP says the car is worth 500k(we don't know make model year as usual) how much was the loan and how much is outstanding after the payments maybe do a deal with the finance co to buy it back as they probably don't want to get involved in any litigation ,then decide wether it's cost efective to go after the woman legally.

[Thaidream]

Do not let it go. This person is a thief; a forger and a liar. She needs to be prosecuted- let the chips fall where they may. You are the aggrieved party. Do not let the system beat you down. Once the authorities know this is not going to go away as well as the accused- things will start to move forward.

[grollies]

1 hour ago, madhav said:

POA can be done without a lawyer as far as I am aware. 

Don't know about sunny Thailand, but anywhere else it's a legal document and must be notorised. My missus has PoA over me when I had a rather large aneurysm repair. You can't just get one from Wollies.

[madhav]

Ford Fiesta ecoboost (2 yo) with less than 15k km on it. Purchased outright. Loan was 200k, now total owing is about 240k baht

 

I am well aware of the system of justice here, it can be absolutely maddening... also how fast things will move if the police are involved. Have made 'donations' in the past and have personally seen the transformation of effort in regards to the police services.

 

I do feel determined to peruse it somewhat because I personally believe these kind of people deserve some kind of justice for their actions and for me to turn a blind eye only reinforces their belief that they can get away with it. 

[JaseTheBass]

I think if a more significant 'donation' is made to the local MiB's social fund, the need for even one "letter of invitation" will be handily bypassed and they will pursue this thief with a bit more vigor. As it stands, any financial rewards for pursuing this will benefit either the OP's company or the finance company. There's no money in it for the cops to do anything worthwhile.

 

Exactly. You need to pay the brown mafia to do their jobs.

 

Sent from my Cray II supercomputer

 

 

 

[grumbleweed]

Couldn't this be regarded as an insurance issue?

Would hurt to try and involve them

[Destiny1990]

The system of POA  its something that needs to have built in much more security or just ban it completely and have  all need show in person.

 

[Don Mega]

6 hours ago, grollies said:

Don't know about sunny Thailand, but anywhere else it's a legal document and must be notorised. My missus has PoA over me when I had a rather large aneurysm repair. You can't just get one from Wollies.

 

 

Does not need to be notorized.

[Ross Macdonald]

The finance company came into possession of the vehicle illegally, therefore it will have to be returned to the rightful owner. It will be the finance companies problem to recover the money owing from their customer. (your ex employee). It it the same as selling a stolen car, the buyer wears the loss for buying stolen property, no matter how the person they purchased it from came into possession of it.

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, madhav said:

Ford Fiesta ecoboost (2 yo) with less than 15k km on it. Purchased outright. Loan was 200k, now total owing is about 240k baht

 

I am well aware of the system of justice here, it can be absolutely maddening... also how fast things will move if the police are involved. Have made 'donations' in the past and have personally seen the transformation of effort in regards to the police services.

 

I do feel determined to peruse it somewhat because I personally believe these kind of people deserve some kind of justice for their actions and for me to turn a blind eye only reinforces their belief that they can get away with it. 

 

Rather than repossessing their property, the finance company have taken possession of a stolen vehicle (the former employee engaged in a fraud to steal the vehicle from her then employer). The debt is comparatively small versus the resale value of a fairly new vehicle so in lieu of legal advice that it would be worthwhile to prosecute the finance company and the fraudster, it may be easier just to pay off the debt, secure the vehicle and sell it.

 

Only after this can a name and shame campaign via social media be considered.

 

36 minutes ago, Ross Macdonald said:

The finance company came into possession of the vehicle illegally, therefore it will have to be returned to the rightful owner. It will be the finance companies problem to recover the money owing from their customer. (your ex employee). It it the same as selling a stolen car, the buyer wears the loss for buying stolen property, no matter how the person they purchased it from came into possession of it.

Exactly.

[madhav]

40 minutes ago, Ross Macdonald said:

The finance company came into possession of the vehicle illegally, therefore it will have to be returned to the rightful owner. It will be the finance companies problem to recover the money owing from their customer. (your ex employee). It it the same as selling a stolen car, the buyer wears the loss for buying stolen property, no matter how the person they purchased it from came into possession of it.

I guess my thought in relation to this is that how does one prove this statement? They came into possession of the vehicle illegally. Or to put it another way, is there definitive proof to say otherwise?

 

There are a few points to consider:

 

1: We have original the blue book and it was with us the whole time (and never lost in July last year she reported to the police)

2: We have the original bill of purchase

3: There is no record of any money exchange or any agreement to sell

4: Even up to a week or so ago, we, and never her, paid for service and maintenance fees at ford (typical ford needed constant repairs for issues)

5: Was the insurance transferred to her name? Unlikely. Will need to be confirmed.

6: The car was in our possession, and the car was being used by our business right up to the last day of repossession and never once in her hands or at her address

7: The finance company never took a key when the deal was made (normally a requirement from my understanding)

8: Blue book was not original but a replacement (acquired only a few days before from the staff member when loan was offered)

9: Employee already has another car on finance (2015 ford focus) with many years of repayments left, but somehow magically comes up with 500k baht (no record of this money in account) to buy another car, and then a few days later decides to get a loan against it?

Edited April 23, 2017 by madhav

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, JaseTheBass said:

 

Exactly. You need to pay the brown mafia to do their jobs.

 

Sent from my Cray II supercomputer

 

 

 

Especially in such cases as this where the complaint is about debt recovery which is primarily a matter for the civil courts regardless of the debt being caused by fraud.

[madhav]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Rather than repossessing their property, the finance company have taken possession of a stolen vehicle (the former employee engaged in a fraud to steal the vehicle from her then employer). The debt is comparatively small versus the resale value of a fairly new vehicle so in lieu of legal advice that it would be worthwhile to prosecute the finance company and the fraudster, it may be easier just to pay off the debt, secure the vehicle and sell it.

 

Only after this can a name and shame campaign via social media be considered.

 

Exactly.

The major issue is that even if the debt was paid, the car would still officially belong to the staff member. You think she will just go to the transport office and transfer ownership back? She would likely just go and get another loan the same day.

[NanLaew]

4 minutes ago, madhav said:

I guess my thought in relation to this is that how does one prove this statement? They came into possession of the vehicle illegally. Or to put it another way, is there definitive proof to say otherwise?

 

There are a few points to consider:

 

1: We have original the blue book and it was with us the whole time (and never lost in July last year she reported to the police)

2: We have the original bill of purchase

3: There is no record of any money exchange or any agreement to sell

4: Even up to a week or so ago, we, and never her, paid for service and maintenance fees at ford (typical ford needed constant repairs for issues)

5: Was the insurance transferred to her name? Unlikely. Will need to be confirmed.

6: The car was in our possession, and the car was being used by our business right up to the last day of repossession and never once in her hands or at her address

7: The finance company never took a key when the deal was made (normally a requirement from my understanding)

8: Blue book was not original but a replacement (acquired only a few days before from the staff member when loan was offered)

9: Employee already has another car on finance (2015 ford focus) with many years of repayments left, but somehow magically comes up with 500k baht (no record of this money in account) to buy another car, and then a few days later decides to get a loan against it?

The only thing I can take from this is the former employees must be piss poor at cards.

[NanLaew]

13 minutes ago, madhav said:

The major issue is that even if the debt was paid, the car would still officially belong to the staff member. You think she will just go to the transport office and transfer ownership back? She would likely just go and get another loan the same day.

Assuming that the finance company is holding the fraudulently obtained blue book against the loan, maybe that's what she's hoping for. Then she will have two revenue streams, one of them unburdened by debt.

 

Since finalization of ownership isn't exactly instantaneous when payment terms are completed with the finance company, it would be fun to rope her in (with the cooperation of the finance company) to come and collect her blue book. I doubt she would be able to resist the temptation and having a friendly MiB waiting in the parking lot would be handy. Definitely a Kodak moment to be had there. However, if the finance company don't seem interested in actively protecting the interests of the legal vehicle owner over that of a fraudster and thief, then maybe they do need a lawyerly talk. 

 

Legal counsel is recommended.

Edited April 23, 2017 by NanLaew

[NanLaew]

18 minutes ago, madhav said:

9: Employee already has another car on finance (2015 ford focus) with many years of repayments left, but somehow magically comes up with 500k baht (no record of this money in account) to buy another car, and then a few days later decides to get a loan against it?

If I understand you correctly, the 500 k baht and the 'other car' is the one she stole form your company and borrowed against? If the Focus was purchased and financed at the same dealership, I would be very surprised. Ford primarily uses Tisco Bank for vehicle financing but some dealerships have been known to shop around for other loan companies if Tisco reject an applicant. It depends on how hungry or connected the salesman is. If it is the same dealership and financing, unless she has a steady supply of guarantors or co-signers, then I suspect something definitely dodgy going on.

[robblok]

Guys, again the finance company handled in good faith... only if you can prove they had to know they blue book was gotten illegally could you build a case against them. Otherwise.. its just you and the employee. 

 

I know this is not the case in US law.. but it is in Dutch and other laws.. also Thai law. 

 

Most Thai law is based on German, French and English (not American law)

 

Go talk with a Thai lawyer and he will explain this to you.

Edited April 23, 2017 by robblok

[taichiplanet]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

Guys, again the finance company handled in good faith... only if you can prove they had to know they blue book was gotten illegally could you build a case against them. Otherwise.. its just you and the employee. 

 

I know this is not the case in US law.. but it is in Dutch and other laws.. also Thai law. 

it is still a stolen car as far as the OP is concerned. First thing i'd be doing is trying to get the police to impound the car until the mess is sorted out. That way the finance company can't hide it or sell it on.

 

The finance company may have acted in good faith but it does seem some of the checks involved in issuing the loan may have been bypassed, if the OP can prove that then he has a good case.

 

As others have stated, sometimes officials need 'incentive' to act. Usually it comes down to who gives more 'incentive' that wins. I was staying at a condo and the manager was issued fines by the Land Office (due to co-owners), the fines stayed in the draw at the local police station until the police officer was persuaded to issue them, which he did that night. The manager was too sick to come to the station after each letter and eventually nothing was done because the manager allowed the police officer to stay in one of the condos rent free! Eventually it got sorted due to an offical in the Land Office being 'persuaded' to take some other action!

Edited April 23, 2017 by taichiplanet

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, taichiplanet said:

it is still a stolen car as far as the OP is concerned. First thing i'd be doing is trying to get the police to impound the car until the mess is sorted out. That way the finance company can't hide it or sell it on.

 

The finance company may have acted in good faith but it does seem some of the checks involved in issuing the loan may have been bypassed, if the OP can prove that then he has a good case.

 

As others have stated, sometimes officials need 'incentive' to act. Usually it comes down to who gives more 'incentive' that wins. I was staying at a condo and the manager was issued fines by the Land Office (due to co-owners), the fines stayed in the draw at the local police station until the police officer was persuaded to issue them, which he did that night. The manager was too sick to come to the station after each letter and eventually nothing was done because the manager allowed the police officer to stay in one of the condos rent free! Eventually it got sorted due to an offical in the Land Office being 'persuaded' to take some other action!

The problem is the employee had a blue book (and was in possession of the car).. that is all the proof that anyone needs, unless the OP can prove that the finance company had to know this book was gotten fraudulently the OP has no leg to stand on.

 

The police wont touch the finance company... they know the law.. this is a court case.. they might go after the employee as that case is far more clear. 

 

I understand why everyone wants to go after the finance company.. they are the one with loads of money.. the employee might not have a thing and then this whole thing is pointless. But the finance company also has good lawyers.. and more money then the OP. Given that this is a strong case for the finance company I would not be hesitant to go after them.

Edited April 23, 2017 by robblok

[richard_smith237]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

Guys, again the finance company handled in good faith... only if you can prove they had to know they blue book was gotten illegally could you build a case against them. Otherwise.. its just you and the employee. 

 

I know this is not the case in US law.. but it is in Dutch and other laws.. also Thai law. 

 

Most Thai law is based on German, French and English (not American law)

 

Go talk with a Thai lawyer and he will explain this to you.

 

I am not privy to the laws and can therefore can only offer opinion.... 

 

... IMO: The Finance company did not carry out Full Due Diligence... they have been defrauded, not the original owner. 

 

... IF I buy a stolen car, it is my fault - I see this issue in similar light. 

 

What concerns me here - is due to such porous security at the DLT it leaves anyone open to an easy theft.