The Visa Non O Process

[elviajero]

On 4/27/2017 at 2:03 PM, Doiger said:

i have no problem showing the money if required for an extension but why should I since I work one month on one month off.

i think for you to say that people that are here on non o multi entry are playing the system is wrong.

i think I have just as much right to be here as every other person that has a visa or an extension to stay.

Really! You may be able to meet the financial requirements, but I can assure you that many of those getting visas from Savannakhet only do so because they can't. That fact can be proven week in week out by the posts on TV.

 

If you are out of the country 6/7 months a year you are not the type of expat I am referring to. You have a legitimate need to enter multiple times which is the reason the visa exits.

 

Someone living in the country only needs a visa to enter once. After that they get an extension of stay and re-entry permits. That is how the system is designed. 

[jeab1980]

9 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You assume wrongly. I am currently working in the UK and have a multiple entry non 'O' visa for my frequent trips back to my home in Thailand. When I move back permanently I'll go back to extensions of stay.

 

• People have been turned away from the Aranyapathet border to try and get a new 90 day permit to stay.,
• Penang recently increased the financial requirements to 400K.

That alone makes you wrong and should tell you something.

No not at all one rouge border crossing as for the 400k again I will have no problem if all consulates and Embassies introduce that. I would still get a non o visa based on marriage. And that is a legitimate way of staying here. It suits my life style. 

Your assumptions of people getting visas at Savanakhet. Based on what you read on here are very vague. 

[elviajero]

8 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

No not at all one rouge border crossing as for the 400k again I will have no problem if all consulates and Embassies introduce that. I would still get a non o visa based on marriage. 

"rouge border". LOL You mean one of the most used borders by people living in Bangkok/Pattaya to do border hops.

 

Consulats across the world are give certain autonomy to decide on the requirements to issue visas and I doubt that will change. That is so that can adjust to local needs. I don't hold out much hope for Savannakhet being allowed to continue issuing ME non 'O's without financial proof if the number of applications increases too high. But hopefully I will be proven wrong.

[jeab1980]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

"rouge border". LOL You mean one of the most used borders by people living in Bangkok/Pattaya to do border hops.

 

Consulats across the world are give certain autonomy to decide on the requirements to issue visas and I doubt that will change. That is so that can adjust to local needs. I don't hold out much hope for Savannakhet being allowed to continue issuing ME non 'O's without financial proof if the number of applications increases too high. But hopefully I will be proven wrong.

As I've said before this is all your assumptions. We will see what we will see. Yes rouge border crossing if you have a valid non o visa and are denied entry that's a local decision and whoever gets refused once back in Thailand should report and challenge it.

[elviajero]

3 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

As I've said before this is all your assumptions. We will see what we will see. Yes rouge border crossing if you have a valid non o visa and are denied entry that's a local decision and whoever gets refused once back in Thailand should report and challenge it.

" your assumptions". You are the one with the assumptions. I'm simply pointing out facts.

 

I am sure you are aware that a visa doesn't give you the right to enter. That right is granted by the IO at the border. I am 100% sure that you do not know what orders have been issued to that border and by whom. Not every denied entry can legally be challenged, and again if the border are under instructions to deny border hops they have ever right to do so. It's happened all over the country over the years for various reasons. You are not being denied exit, but being denied an immediate re-entry to extend your stay in the country. Big clue!

[jeab1980]

13 minutes ago, elviajero said:

" your assumptions". You are the one with the assumptions. I'm simply pointing out facts.

 

I am sure you are aware that a visa doesn't give you the right to enter. That right is granted by the IO at the border. I am 100% sure that you do not know what orders have been issued to that border and by whom. Not every denied entry can legally be challenged, and again if the border are under instructions to deny border hops they have ever right to do so. It's happened all over the country over the years for various reasons. You are not being denied exit, but being denied an immediate re-entry to extend your stay in the country. Big clue!

Bye. Can't be bothered.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

You seem to have a very naive understanding of the powers immigration officers have across the world. 

 

You have no idea about the orders, rules and regulations issued to and followed by IO's at the border. Just because it isn't published doesn't mean they don't exists.

 

Try reading section 16 (referred to by section 12. 10.) of the immigration act that effectively gives the powers to deny entry to absolutely anyone for any reason.

Section 16 : In the instance where for reason of national welfare or safeguarding the public peace , culture , morality , or welfare , or when the Minister considers it improper to allow any alien or any group of alien to enter into the Kingdom , the Minister shall have power to exclude said alien or group aliens from entering into the Kingdom. 

 

Genuine tourist don't need things spelt out. Only people like yourself that are living in the country using tourist visas are at any real risk of denial and cannot complain if/when it happens.

Perhaps that will someday be stamped in a passport as a reason for rejecting entry.  To my knowledge this has not yet happened

 

Regarding risk to the mythical species of persons known as "genuine tourists" (perhaps the definition is secret?): If we don't know what "any alien or group of alien" might be subject to rejection based on secret orders, how can we know that these "genuine tourists" might not be rejected due to secret orders?  All we have to go on, right now, are guessed "odds" based on reports.  A more restrictive policy has been at least loosely defined for visa-exempt entries - but we still do not know what the actual "rules" are.  Entry visa-exempt, therefore, remains a guessing game, where certain criteria "seem" to improve the odds.

 

In cases of national security, secret rules might be necessary to capture bad-guys and save lives.  This would be akin to baiting a trap, and not tipping off the prey that they will be captured.  This is, of course, reasonable and justified.

 

But in cases of non-violent people with no malicious-intent, the responsible and decent thing to do, is to inform these visitors of any rules that would restrict their entry, thus preventing the attempt to enter from ever occurring.  "Bait/Trapping" such people would be an unwarranted, cruel and capricious thing to do.

 

By knowing the rules in advance, guests entering Thailand may avoid stress, confusion, worry, and inconvenience.  The lives and working-conditions of IO-personnel are also be improved by a reduction of stress and conflict.  Maybe more of them would be happier at work, providing a better experience for all visitors.  This combination makes life better for all parties, and protects Thailand's reputation as a safe, civilized, and friendly place.

 

If and when the authorities feel the need to restrict the use of Tourist Visas further, I am sure they will not be shy in doing so. I make no bets on the future, in this regard. I do hope they provide fair-warning, such as was provided even for criminal-overstayers and banning-rules.  If people flagrantly violating immigration law received notice of that policy-change, I would hope those obeying the law with TR visas and multi-entry Non-O visas, are shown the same courtesy.

 

For the time being, the authorities seem to have erected financial-hurdles (frequent travel to various locales plus showing-cash) which restrict frequent or long-stayers using TR and Non-O Multi-Entry visas to their satisfaction.  Based on reports here, a few "rogue" IOs seem to feel these measures are inadequate; but those persons clearly do not make the rules, or the rules would have already been changed to suit their preferences.

[Stocky]

16 hours ago, elviajero said:

Someone living in the country only needs a visa to enter once. After that they get an extension of stay and re-entry permits. That is how the system is designed. 

Clearly not, as it's perfectly acceptable to take a multi-O visa options, or indeed the Elite Visa system, and achieve a similar result.

The design is a little more flexible, one size seldom fits all.

[Doiger]

22 hours ago, elviajero said:

You assume wrongly. I am currently working in the UK and have a multiple entry non 'O' visa for my frequent trips back to my home in Thailand. When I move back permanently I'll go back to extensions of stay.

 

• People have been turned away from the Aranyapathet border to try and get a new 90 day permit to stay.,
• Penang recently increased the financial requirements to 400K.

That alone makes you wrong and should tell you something.

I tend to find it a bit bizarre that you are telling people that are here on multi entry non o visas that they are wrong and shouldn't be here when you have one yourself.

peoples situations change and no one can tell what will happen in a couple of months.

i don't know what your work situation is but you have clearly said that you work in the uk but live in Thailand.

one question I have for you, if you were in Thailand on a 90 day stamp and you were meant to go back to work but for some reason it got postponed beyond your 90 day permission to stay, would you do a border run(if applicable) or get a one year extension?

Also another quick one to add, I have always received my multi entry non o visas from the Thai embassy in London or the Thai embassy in muscat, Oman (where I work) and like savannakhet I have never been asked for financial proof.

 

[elviajero]

On 4/30/2017 at 5:52 AM, Stocky said:

Clearly not, as it's perfectly acceptable to take a multi-O visa options, or indeed the Elite Visa system, and achieve a similar result.

The design is a little more flexible, one size seldom fits all.

People do use them and immigration, on the whole, tolerate it, but that doesn't mean ME non 'O' visas are meant to be used to live in the country. Just ask your local immigration office.

 

The flexibility is in catering for people that want to live in or frequently visit the country. They do not, by design, have a system that gives an expat living in the country the choice. It is a loophole that we have taken advantage of, and that immigration have not had too much of a problem with. If numbers increase that tolerance will reduce and they will start to enforce the use of the visa for it's purpose.

 

Visas are for entry to the country. Permission to stay is granted by immigration and extensions are the method to live in the country. You do not need a visa once in the country.

 

The reason most use the ME non 'O' are because they can't meet the financial requirements for an extension. Immigration do not have a system that requires 400K/40K pm system (by design) to gain permission to stay with a get out clause that you can circumvent that requirement by using an ME visa.

[elviajero]

23 hours ago, Doiger said:

I tend to find it a bit bizarre that you are telling people that are here on multi entry non o visas that they are wrong and shouldn't be here when you have one yourself.

I haven't told anyone they shouldn't be here! I advise people everyday about how to get a ME non 'O' to live in the country. I am simply pointing out that they are not designed for that purpose and if immigration stop anyone doing so they have nothing to complain about.

 

23 hours ago, Doiger said:

i don't know what your work situation is but you have clearly said that you work in the uk but live in Thailand.

one question I have for you, if you were in Thailand on a 90 day stamp and you were meant to go back to work but for some reason it got postponed beyond your 90 day permission to stay, would you do a border run(if applicable) or get a one year extension?

I lived permanently in Thailand for 21 years, but I have a business based in the UK which has taken off and requires me to be in there for the next couple of years. So although I consider Thailand is my home I currently live in the UK and visit Thailand.

 

Your scenario wouldn't happen, but if it did I would get a 60 day extension or do a border run. Again, I am discussing people that live permanently in Thailand using the visa, not those visiting frequently for whom the visa is designed.

[Stocky]

46 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The flexibility is in catering for people that want to live in or frequently visit the country. They do not, by design, have a system that gives an expat living in the country the choice. It is a loophole that we have taken advantage of, and that immigration have not had too much of a problem with. If numbers increase that tolerance will reduce and they will start to enforce the use of the visa for it's purpose.

 

The reason most use the ME non 'O' are because they can't meet the financial requirements for an extension. Immigration do not have a system that requires 400K/40K pm system (by design) to gain permission to stay with a get out clause that you can circumvent that requirement by using an ME visa.

One would hope they just enforce similar financial requirements for multi-entry applications at all embassies and consulates. Savannakhet is something of an anomaly.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, Stocky said:

One would hope they just enforce similar financial requirements for multi-entry applications at all embassies and consulates. Savannakhet is something of an anomaly.

Actually the embassies and consulates that want financial proof to get a multiple entry non-o based upon marriage are anomalies. The majority ask for no financial proof. There is no rule that states it is required.

The only financial proof mentioned is the 20k baht required for all visas here on the MFA website. http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15398-Issuance-of-Visa.html

[elviajero]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

Actually the embassies and consulates that want financial proof to get a multiple entry non-o based upon marriage are anomalies. The majority ask for no financial proof. There is no rule that states it is required.

The only financial proof mentioned is the 20k baht required for all visas here on the MFA website. http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15398-Issuance-of-Visa.html

Correct. And the reason some have started asking for financial proof (400K/40K pm) is because of the increase in the use of the visa to live in the country.

[jeab1980]

10 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Correct. And the reason some have started asking for financial proof (400K/40K pm) is because of the increase in the use of the visa to live in the country.

Not at all its beacuse they find it hard to understandvthe miriad of diffrent paperwork and rules passed down to them. Therefore interpretation is very difficult so some just say financial proof for all.

[Stocky]

46 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Actually the embassies and consulates that want financial proof to get a multiple entry non-o based upon marriage are anomalies. The majority ask for no financial proof. There is no rule that states it is required.

Well in that case perhaps it's time there were.

But then again, if everything were crystal clear and in black and white it would be Singapore and not Thailand, so vive la différence!

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, jeab1980 said:

Not at all its beacuse they find it hard to understandvthe miriad of diffrent paperwork and rules passed down to them. Therefore interpretation is very difficult so some just say financial proof for all.

Nonsense. The MFA rules are very simple. Local autonomy is given so that consulates can adapt to local demands.

 

400K/40K pm is the amount immigration require someone to have that lives in the country. A frequent visitor using the ME visa is not expected to be living in the country, therefore, under the system as it is designed they don't need to prove financials. The reason some consulates have imposed financial proof is to stop people using the visa to avoid the immigration financial rules. Penang being the obvious example.

[Doiger]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

I haven't told anyone they shouldn't be here! I advise people everyday about how to get a ME non 'O' to live in the country. I am simply pointing out that they are not designed for that purpose and if immigration stop anyone doing so they have nothing to complain about.

 

I lived permanently in Thailand for 21 years, but I have a business based in the UK which has taken off and requires me to be in there for the next couple of years. So although I consider Thailand is my home I currently live in the UK and visit Thailand.

 

Your scenario wouldn't happen, but if it did I would get a 60 day extension or do a border run. Again, I am discussing people that live permanently in Thailand using the visa, not those visiting frequently for whom the visa is designed.

I think by what you have said above kind of proves that situations change.

i an not having a go at you by any means but on the other hand I think a lot of the things that you have said on this topic are completely hypocritical.

i do agree with you that maybe people are living here on a non o multi entry but while it is possible then why not?

I know many people that are here on an extensions based on retirement, but they are still working out with Thailand, retired, don't think so.

how about just agreeing to disagree that the visa/extension system here is not perfect.

I myself being under 50 and still actively working, then the multi entry non o is the best and easiest for for me.

whether right or wrong I will continue to use this route until no longer available or when I am completely retired then I will go down the route of extension.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, Doiger said:

i an not having a go at you by any means but on the other hand I think a lot of the things that you have said on this topic are completely hypocritical.

Give an example.

 

3 hours ago, Doiger said:

i do agree with you that maybe people are living here on a non o multi entry but while it is possible then why not?

I agree, they should continue and I will continue to advise people how to get one. I've nothing against anyone using ME non -'O' visas to live in Thailand. As usual people read what they want to read and not what they are reading. Again, I am simply pointing out that they are not meant for that purpose, and if they are prevented from doing so they have nothing to complain about.

 

 

 

 

[oporhatch]

I have one last question based on the  above

 

I want to pick my 90 visa up from Hull  , However they do not do 'O' visa's with Multiple Entry, only single entry.   Would Getting this type of Visa impact me get a   

Multiple re entry Permit once I am out in Thailand.

I take my issue would come if I had to return to England before I have applied for an Extension.

Which brings me to one other question/option -   Can you get an extension of the Visa after say a couple of days being in Thailand and except the that you would lose days on your original Visa.

 

Thought  being if I had to travel back to the UK say after 2 weeks  (for whatever unforeseen reason)  - then get the year extension and re- entry premits before travelling back to the UK ?

 

Again your responses are appreciated 

 

regards

Richard

[BritTim]

20 minutes ago, oporhatch said:

I have one last question based on the  above

 

I want to pick my 90 visa up from Hull  , However they do not do 'O' visa's with Multiple Entry, only single entry.   Would Getting this type of Visa impact me get a   

Multiple re entry Permit once I am out in Thailand.

I take my issue would come if I had to return to England before I have applied for an Extension.

Which brings me to one other question/option -   Can you get an extension of the Visa after say a couple of days being in Thailand and except the that you would lose days on your original Visa.

 

Thought  being if I had to travel back to the UK say after 2 weeks  (for whatever unforeseen reason)  - then get the year extension and re- entry premits before travelling back to the UK ?

 

Again your responses are appreciated 

 

regards

Richard

Nothing prevents you from getting a reentry permit for your current permission to stay while within Thailand. The question is whether it will be of any benefit to you. It is probably only useful if you want to leave and return to Thailand within the 90 days allowed by the single entry Non O.

Usually, an immigration office will not allow you to apply for an extension more than 30-45 days before the permission to stay expires. Maybe, if they are friendly and you can plead your case, they will make an exception. Regardless, the extension starts from the end of your current permission to stay. Another issue you will likely have is that you are supposed to be available at your registered address during the under consideration period for the extension.

Maybe, easiest will just be to get a multiple entry visa from the London embassy or from Savannakhet.

[oporhatch]

Thanks for that 

 

From what you are saying is that If you get a year extension - you should actually be at that address for the year ??

 

I am actually staying in Thailand for 8 months  -  therefore my original plan would mean I would not be in Thailand for the total duration of my extension  I was going to apply for  .

I would have thought you would need to be at the address for the time you are in the country (8 Months)  -  but not if you take a year extension you have to stay for a year, to satisfy the requirements you have stated  

 

   

regards

Richard   

[elviajero]

48 minutes ago, oporhatch said:

Thanks for that 

 

From what you are saying is that If you get a year extension - you should actually be at that address for the year ??

 

I am actually staying in Thailand for 8 months  -  therefore my original plan would mean I would not be in Thailand for the total duration of my extension  I was going to apply for  .

I would have thought you would need to be at the address for the time you are in the country (8 Months)  -  but not if you take a year extension you have to stay for a year, to satisfy the requirements you have stated  

You can change your address as often as you want within the year. Any permanent changes of address needs to reported at the office covering the new address. You can stay outside of the country as much as you like.

 

If you want to leave/return during the year you can get a re-entry permit, and when you return they will stamp you in for the remainder of the year.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, oporhatch said:

I have one last question based on the  above

 

I want to pick my 90 visa up from Hull  , However they do not do 'O' visa's with Multiple Entry, only single entry.   Would Getting this type of Visa impact me get a   

Multiple re entry Permit once I am out in Thailand.

I take my issue would come if I had to return to England before I have applied for an Extension.

Which brings me to one other question/option -   Can you get an extension of the Visa after say a couple of days being in Thailand and except the that you would lose days on your original Visa.

 

Thought  being if I had to travel back to the UK say after 2 weeks  (for whatever unforeseen reason)  - then get the year extension and re- entry premits before travelling back to the UK ?

 

Again your responses are appreciated 

 

regards

Richard

You can apply for a multiple entry non immigrant 'O' visa by post from London.

 

If you don't want to have to leave the country every 90 days (ME visa) you should get the single entry non 'O' visa. You'll have one 90 day stay issued on entry and can only apply for a 1 year extension within the last 45 (maybe 30) days, as long as you meet the financial requirements. If you need to travel during the initial 90 days you can get a single entry re-entry permit for 1,000 baht. When you return using the re-entry permit, before the original 90th day, you can still apply for the 1 year extension on or before (within 45/30 days) the original 90th day.

[RichCor]

1 hour ago, oporhatch said:

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

Another issue you will likely have is that you are supposed to be available at your registered address during the under consideration period for the extension.

From what you are saying is that If you get a year extension - you should actually be at that address for the year ??

 

I am actually staying in Thailand for 8 months  -  therefore my original plan would mean I would not be in Thailand for the total duration of my extension  I was going to apply for.  I would have thought you would need to be at the address for the time you are in the country (8 Months)  -  but not if you take a year extension you have to stay for a year, to satisfy the requirements you have stated  

 

No. The "Under Consideration" period is a stamp providing 30-days permission of stay while your 12-month extension of stay application is under consideration. It's recommended you stay in-country during this 30+ day time period.

[Roger Lee]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

 

No. The "Under Consideration" period is a stamp providing 30-days permission of stay while your 12-month extension of stay application is under consideration. It's recommended you stay in-country during this 30+ day time period.

How soon can you apply for this 12-month extension during the 90 day non-0 visa?  The last 30 days?

[elviajero]

24 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

How soon can you apply for this 12-month extension during the 90 day non-0 visa?  The last 30 days?

Within the last 30 days at all offices, but many will take applications within the last 45 days.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

 

No. The "Under Consideration" period is a stamp providing 30-days permission of stay while your 12-month extension of stay application is under consideration. It's recommended you stay in-country during this 30+ day time period.

Recommended by who? There is nothing stopping you taking a trip during the consideration period. As long as you have a re-entry permit, and re-enter before the date you have to report back to receive the permit, there is no problem.

[BritTim]

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

Recommended by who? There is nothing stopping you taking a trip during the consideration period. As long as you have a re-entry permit, and re-enter before the date you have to report back to receive the permit, there is no problem.

There have been occasional problems when immigration visits to confirm that the marriage is de facto and discovers you are not there.

[elviajero]

26 minutes ago, BritTim said:

There have been occasional problems when immigration visits to confirm that the marriage is de facto and discovers you are not there.

Yes. But they will tell you when you apply if they are going to visit. It is usually done within a few days of applying as they can't send the application for approval until they have the home visit paperwork. If you have to make a trip, and tell them when applying for the re-entry permit, there is not a problem.