Visa Exchange Rate - Not Always Given?

[Wandr]

It has been stated several times here that when withdrawing money from an ATM with a VISA branded debit card, the exchange rate applied will always be the day's rate set by Visa.

This was reiterated in a thread that is currently active.

Well, I had withdrawn money from a Krungsri ATM and felt that the rate was not quite what it should be (USD). But I did not verify.

Today I checked. The rate given by the Krungsri ATM was lower by .08 baht than the rate that Visa is supposed to have set, as I see it on the web. (Including the 220 baht bank fee.)

It was a straightforward transaction,  no questions about how the rate should be calculated, or anything unusual.

I am going to stick to Bangkok Bank ATMs from now on. But I wonder what the banks have come up with that allows them to monkey with the rate.

[KhunBENQ]

Moved to banking forum.

[KhunBENQ]

One possible explanation is the time of withdrawal compared to the time you checked the rate.

It's long ago but when I used VISA the "today" rate changed at 11 AM Thai time.

Seems it was fixed to some US timezone.

I would have to check whether this still applies.

 

[juice777]

Never hit that fast cash option

It goes something like this

Withdraw

Checking / current

Other amount

Put in how much you want to withdraw (best to the maximum you can to save money on atm fees)

Hit yes for the 229THB charge

Then it should give you the option for them to do the conversion. Always hit no( continue without conversion) your bank will do the conversion

I always use the Siam Bank as I know how the menus work. Other ATMs do it differently and one wrong button press can cost be £20.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[Wandr]

1 hour ago, KhunBENQ said:

One possible explanation is the time of withdrawal compared to the time you checked the rate.

It's long ago but when I used VISA the "today" rate changed at 11 AM Thai time.

Seems it was fixed to some US timezone.

I would have to check whether this still applies.

 

It wasn't the time because the previous day's rate was quite different from what I got.

And the current day's (higher) rate remained the same for the rest of the day .

[Pib]

Is your card issued by a European bank?  If so, be sure to use the Visa link for European-issued Visa cards.   The rates for European issued Visa cards can be slightly different on some days from Visa cards issued for other countries.

 

Banks use the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate unless they offer a DCC rate (their rate) which will be significantly lower.  Never accept a DCC rate.   But I expect you did not do that as the rate differential would have been much larger than 0.08 baht.

 

Also, was the 220 baht included in cash withdrawal amount or a separate charge appeared for the card?  If included with the cash amount withdrawn be sure you backed out that 220 charge before doing the rest of your exchange rate calculations.  Then again, maybe the exchange rate given was displayed on your bank account?

Edited May 12, 2017 by Pib

[Wandr]

None of the above conditions apply, so I am thinking maybe they can charge what they want and the Visa exchange rate concept is not foolproof.

I will have to stay away from other banks and stick to Bangkok. Even there, I think we should check periodically to see what rate they are giving us, as opposed to what we think we should be giving.

I have never been given a screen where they ask about exchange rate calculation, or even what rate is being offered. The only extra information is about the 220 baht charge which I agree to obviously. (The charge needs to be included in the exchange rate calculation, because the bank is withdrawing your specified amount plus 220 baht from the overseas bank.)

As many others have mentioned, so far the excess charge has not been large. But unless we calculate we won't know. Besides, why throw away money, however little?

[Pib]

Every couple of months I use a couple of U.S. no  foreign transaction fee debit cards at Krungsri ATMs and I have always found the exchange rate hitting my bank accounts to match to the 3d or 4th (or farther) decimal point.   I always use Krungsri or TMB ATMs since they provide up to 30K baht per transaction.  The times I have used TMB ATMs the exchange rates has always matched also.   I don't use Bangkok Bank ATMs since they only allow a max of 25K baht per withdrawal.

 

Since .08 baht lower works out to approx 0.2% you might want to check to see if your card issuing bank has possibly started charging the Visa conversion fee which can range from approx 0.15% to 1%.  A person will typically here the Visa/Mastercard conversion fee as being 1% but it can vary depending on the contract your card-issuing bank has with Visa/Mastercard.   CapOne cards supposedly pass along (or use to pass along) approx a 0.2% conversion fee.

[Pib]

And below is the charge that hit my bank account for a 3 May 17 withdrawal for 30K baht from a Krungsri ATM using my U.S. Visa debit card.  The exchange rate works out to 34.413.   Then, when looking at the exchange rate on the Visa website for 3 May the rate was 34.413.   Spot on match with rate hitting my bank account.  The Bt220 ATM was  a separate charge on my bank account....same 34.413 exchange rate.  

 

Yeap, when using my U.S. Visa cards in Thai ATMs the exchange rate has always matched the Visa rate.  If it don't a person is doing their math wrong, accepted a DCC transaction, and/or their card-issuing bank is charging a fee.

 

 

[Acharn]

Since some people have complained that the ATM they went to gave them a terrible exchange rate, I have always assumed that the rate is set by your VISA card issuing bank. I noticed on 1 May, after I made two withdrawals in a space of less than five minutes, when I checked my account over the internet, the exchange rate was slightly different between the two transactions. In both I got a little more than the rate quoted by Siam Commercial Bank on their web site. I didn't realize there was some place where VISA posted an official exchange rate. Anyway, I have always been happy with the rate I've gotten, which has never been more that a few satang less than the SCB rate for TT transfers, and usually a little higher. You should realize the foreign exchange markets operate 24 hours a day seven days a week and every bank is buying and selling throughout their business day.

[Pib]

Assuming you do not opt for a DCC transaction (which is the local bank rate which operates the ATM) , card-issuing banks do "not" set the card rates; the rates are set by Visa/Mastercard/etc.  

 

And if your card-issuing bank applies a foreign transaction fee that effectively lowers the Visa/Mastercard rate.   A bank's foreign transaction fee would include the Visa/Mastercard conversion fee which the bank decided not to absorb and any addtional fee the bank wants to add on for pure profit.  

 

Additionally, when the charge hits your bank account they may or may not breakout any ATM fee, like the Thai bank 220 baht ATM fee, which needs to be taken into consideration when doing your personal math to determine exchange rate.   And some banks may display the specific rate given which means not math needed on your part..  All depends on your card-issuing bank as to how they display the charge hitting your account.

 

If you have a no foreign transaction fee card the Visa/Mastercard rate is very close to the Thai bank TT Buying Rate used for incoming international transfers.  This relationship is just coincidental but can serve as a rule of thumb if too lazy to look at the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate pages.  Unfortunately, the Mastercard exchange rate page is not real time....it's doesn't display the current day.  The Visa exchange rate does show the current day.   

 

In closing, wait until the transaction "posts" to your account to see the actual rate given.   The "Pending" rate could change from the Posted rate hitting your account especially if using credit cards which can take a couple of business days to post/settle/finalize.  However, debit card transactions usually post/finalize same day of transaction unless your card-issuing bank using the double-messaging settlement approach for debit card settlement which means the transaction may take one business day to settle.   Debit and credit cards are just settled differently...credit cards take longer.

 

And if you can't get the exchange rate received to match the Visa/Mastercard rate, be sure to look at the previous or next business day (or more) rate because as mentioned the posting/settlement date rate can be different from the pending/actual transaction date rate.  Plus date/time differentials around this 24 hour world can confuse which date's exchange rate to use.  As mentioned, debit cards will usually be same day but credit cards a few days later.

 

 

[Wandr]

22 hours ago, Pib said:

Since .08 baht lower works out to approx 0.2% you might want to check to see if your card issuing bank has possibly started charging the Visa conversion fee which can range from approx 0.15% to 1%.  A person will typically here the Visa/Mastercard conversion fee as being 1% but it can vary depending on the contract your card-issuing bank has with Visa/Mastercard.   CapOne cards supposedly pass along (or use to pass along) approx a 0.2% conversion fee.

Unfortunately, none of the above applies. It would have been much simpler for me to know the cause for the deviation in exchange rates than to be kept wondering.

This is the second time (I believe) this has happened with Krungsri, so I can only assume they have manipulated the rate somehow.

But my solution is to stick to Bangkok Bank, which has been accurate so far. I will check periodically, though. Krungsri may have ripped me off for 70-odd baht, but I will have the satisfaction of knowing that they won't get my business any more. And perhaps someone else who has read this post will also stay away from them.

[Pib]

Nope, Krungsri didn't rip you off as already said they use the Visa/Mastercard exchange rates just like all other banks unless you accept a bank's DCC offer (.e., their local and lower rate).  Something else went on here such a personal math error, a small foreign transaction fee being charged by your card-issuing  bank (maybe a flat fee and/or percentage fee), using the wrong date to determine the rate,  etc.

 

Here's another example of a Krungrsi ATM 30K withdrawal on 6 Jan 17 using another one of my no foreign transaction fee debit cards.  Now since this particular bank lumps the ATM fee into the cash amount withdrawn where my other bank breaks out ATM fee separately I have to take that into consideration for my math.  In this case  the $847.51 charge hitting my account is Bt30,000 withdrawn plus the Bt200 ATM fee "at that time" for a total of 30,200 baht.   Krungsri  the fee toBt220 a month or so later than this withdrawal but that doesn't affect below withdrawal.

 

OK, 30,200 baht charge results in a $847.51 cent hitting my account which is a 35.63 exchange rate.

 

When looking up the 6 Jan 17 Visa exchange rate at their webpage they show a 35.63 exchange rate.   Matches the rate hitting my bank  account.

 

I've used Bangkok Bank ATM a few times over the years....no discrepancy between the rate received and the Visa rate.  Ditto for TMB, KrungThai, and AEON ATMs I've used.

 

 

 

 

 

[puck2]

7 hours ago, Wandr said:

Unfortunately, none of the above applies.   <------>

 

???

I only can confirm what @Pib has written here in  this thread. The ATM-VISA-exchange rates are identic with the VISA (EUROPE) rates booked on my account. 100%.

 

If you compare both rates you have to consider the ATM fees here in Thailand and those in the country of the card issuing bank. For this reason check the details of these withdrawals.

 

To end the contradictory discussion, please give us the following datas of one of these "dubious" ATM withdrawals:

1. the exact (Thai) date of the withdrawal = hour + minutes, day, month, year - all printed on your ATM receipt.
2. the country of the issuing card
3. the amount of the withdrawal (Thai  Baht) from your bank account (in the  currency of your bank account)
4. The fees of your card issuing bank. Consider: the THAI-ATM fee (220 THB i.e.) normally is contained in  the booked amount.
5. please tell us exactly how you do the calculation? Consider: in the Visa-exchange table you have to start with the currency of the card issuing bank (= My card is in .... USD, EUR, GBP i.e.)

 

[Wandr]

God help me from so-called internet experts!

I did not ask anyone to analyze my transaction, though I suppose I should thank you for the effort.

And don't keep saying that the calculation was incorrect. Here is what the expert above (PIB) said in his or her post:

 

"  If included with the cash amount withdrawn be sure you backed out that 220 charge before doing the rest of your exchange rate calculations. "

 

Totally illogical and incorrect. And I should believe a person like this about anything financial?

 

I have done a search on the net and found other references specifically about Krungsri Bank charging more than others. The easiest course for everyone is to steer clear of this bank.

But if anyone posting on here is a Krungsri employee or agent then post your details, and I will drop by your office with information about my transaction.

 

Thanks once again for the effort made by posters.

[Pib]

Just cut and paste from your ibanking the charge(s) hitting your account, the date, and tell us how many baht withdrawn. Like my two examples of Krungsri ATM withdrawals which confirmed Krungsri used the Visa rate and matched the rate several decimals points out.

Bank link to the card you have to review any fees.

"All" Thai banks use the card network exchange rate unless you accept their DCC rate. And any card issuing bank fees will effectively lower the exchange rate.

Back your claim up with hard facts/details.

[Swiss1960]

On 13.5.2017 at 9:54 PM, Pib said:

Assuming you do not opt for a DCC transaction (which is the local bank rate which operates the ATM) , card-issuing banks do "not" set the card rates; the rates are set by Visa/Mastercard/etc.  

 

And if your card-issuing bank applies a foreign transaction fee that effectively lowers the Visa/Mastercard rate.   A bank's foreign transaction fee would include the Visa/Mastercard conversion fee which the bank decided not to absorb and any addtional fee the bank wants to add on for pure profit.  

...

WRONG! Card issuing banks CAN and DO set their own exchange rates under VISA / MasterCard regulations! One major bank in Switzerland for example sets their own rates for GBP, US$ and EUR, since those are their major trading currencies and they will make an additional gain when they have to settle their accounts against VISA / MasterCard.

 

[Pib]

I'm sure they do set some rates just like Thai banks set their own TT rate, sight bill rate, traveller cheque rate, cash/notes rate, DCC rate, etc. But Thai banks use the card logo rate unless it's a DCC rate. And all of my US debit and credit card issuing banks use the card logo rates.

But do some countries around the world have specific laws/local regulations allowing a bank to set their own ATM rate? Sure. But they are the exceptions. Even for European bank issued Visa cards they have a separate exchange rate page as the Visa rate is slightly different from US/most other countries Visa rate but a Visa rate is still being used.

[puck2]

On 15/5/2560 at 9:01 AM, Swiss1960 said:

WRONG! Card issuing banks CAN and DO set their own exchange rates under VISA / MasterCard regulations! One major bank in Switzerland for example sets their own rates for GBP, US$ and EUR, since those are their major trading currencies and they will make an additional gain when they have to settle their accounts against VISA / MasterCard.

 

Although  "one mayor bank in Switzerland" sets its own rates, the general rule is that the banks (of the issuing VISA-Card) refer to the exchange rates of VISA, re.Visa Europe.

 

Because @Wandr doesn't want to write details of the "not always given Visa rate" it's completely useless to go on with the discussion.

 

He seems to be too lazy to look into the visa-card-conditions of his bank. I, i.e., can read that my bank uses the exchange rates (in advance) published by VISA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[puck2]

On 15/5/2560 at 6:52 AM, Wandr said:

God help me from so-called internet experts!

I did not ask anyone to analyze my transaction, though I suppose I should thank you for the effort.

And don't keep saying that the calculation was incorrect. Here is what the expert above (PIB) said in his or her post:

 

"  If included with the cash amount withdrawn be sure you backed out that 220 charge before doing the rest of your exchange rate calculations. "

 

Totally illogical and incorrect. And I should believe a person like this about anything financial?

 

I have done a search on the net and found other references specifically about Krungsri Bank charging more than others. The easiest course for everyone is to steer clear of this bank.

But if anyone posting on here is a Krungsri employee or agent then post your details, and I will drop by your office with information about my transaction.

 

Thanks once again for the effort made by posters.

May I give you an advice. Call "God"  to get an answer to your problem. You can find the telephone number in every phone book, or you must google. If that all doesn't work please ask a priest for the number

Edited May 16, 2017 by puck2

[Wandr]

12 hours ago, puck2 said:

May I give you an advice. Call "God"  to get an answer to your problem. You can find the telephone number in every phone book, or you must google. If that all doesn't work please ask a priest for the number

I would say just about anyone will know more than you!

 

[Wandr]

12 hours ago, puck2 said:

Although  "one mayor bank in Switzerland" sets its own rates, the general rule is that the banks (of the issuing VISA-Card) refer to the exchange rates of VISA, re.Visa Europe.

 

Because @Wandr doesn't want to write details of the "not always given Visa rate" it's completely useless to go on with the discussion.

 

He seems to be too lazy to look into the visa-card-conditions of his bank. I, i.e., can read that my bank uses the exchange rates (in advance) published by VISA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

People with limited knowledge frequently get into this box - that they know a lot.

I have no desire to share any details with people like these. I asked a question, no one had an answer, now take a hike.

 

[puck2]

1 hour ago, Wandr said:

I would say just about anyone will know more than you!

 

Because "anyone" - including you- will know more then me, why couldn't you solve the exchange-rate-difference-problem by yourself?

You remember me Trump. People with an open brain would like to deliver the requested details in order to be able to solve the problem. Again: you are to lazy to read the terms of your VISA-Card concerning the exchange rates.

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by puck2

[Pib]

2 hours ago, Wandr said:

People with limited knowledge frequently get into this box - that they know a lot.

I have no desire to share any details with people like these. I asked a question, no one had an answer, now take a hike.

 

You asked a question and refuse to give any details of your transaction such as your card/any associated fees, amount of transaction, date of transaction, etc.   You just say your math comes up with a 0.08 baht lower exchange rate.   You have been given multiple and specific examples of withdrawals using Krungsri ATMs where the Krungsri exchange rate matches the Visa exchange rate exactly for a no foreign transaction fee card.  You have repeatedly been asked for details but refuse to give any.  So, why did you even start this thread other than maybe to troll responses? 

[Wandr]

1 hour ago, puck2 said:

Because "anyone" - including you- will know more then me, why couldn't you solve the exchange-rate-difference-problem by yourself?

You remember me Trump. People with an open brain would like to deliver the requested details in order to be able to solve the problem. Again: you are to lazy to read the terms of your VISA-Card concerning the exchange rates.

 

Because it wasn't an exchange rate problem.

It was a very simple question about whether anyone had experienced Krungsri short changing people in some manner.

You don't know it then you stay out of the discussion. Simple.

No one is asking for your supposed expertise. You don't have any as far as most people are concerned.

Now find something useful to do.

 

[Wandr]

34 minutes ago, Pib said:

You asked a question and refuse to give any details of your transaction such as your card/any associated fees, amount of transaction, date of transaction, etc.   You just say your math comes up with a 0.08 baht lower exchange rate.   You have been given multiple and specific examples of withdrawals using Krungsri ATMs where the Krungsri exchange rate matches the Visa exchange rate exactly for a no foreign transaction fee card.  You have repeatedly been asked for details but refuse to give any.  So, why did you even start this thread other than maybe to troll responses? 

What makes you think your calculation is better than mine? I have already proven that you cannot think straight.

See my reply above and stay out of discussions if you have nothing to contribute.

You are simply wasting everyone's time.

 

[juice777]

Haha I love it when a Thread about nothing important turns into a big massive debate,with name calling and everything lol

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[Pib]

Since you are extremely resistive to providing any details of your card & transaction and only want to provide rude responses, I will close my inputs by recommending you recheck your math, your entries into the Visa exchange rate page, and also ensure you understand any applicable fees related to your card such as foreign transaction fee (percentage and/or flat), any out of network fee, ensuring the correct Visa exchange rate date is used, any recent fee change related to your card, etc.    All of my Krungsri ATM withdrawals (past and current) using multiple U.S. debit cards have always matched the Visa exchange rate exactly...and ditto for some others who have replied in this thread.   Ditto on the exchange rate match when using my cards in other Thai ATMs since Thai ATMs use the Visa/Mastercard/card logo exchange rate assuming a DCC transaction was not accepted.   Good luck in your quest for your exchange rate disconnect.