Don’t waste coup – reform country, Yingluck tells junta

[Smarter Than You]

53 minutes ago, robblok said:

I hold it against the junta too.. but people who defend the PTP only with they voted so its ok get this reply from me. Also the junta should be temporarily.. the PTP has been here in one or an other incarnation for a long time and they constantly break the rules. The only part of a democracy that they got right is getting voted in.. after that it stops. 

Your response defies reason and logic.

 

The Junta should be temporary you say, but who can unseat them?

How do you suggest they be removed?

Certainly they can't be voted out can they!

 

Why should there even be a Junta?

Juntas are a step backwards, away from democracy not a step towards democracy.

What good reason was there for a coup when every single thing you complain about PTP is WORSE under the Junta.

(Stop for a second and read the above line again then take another minute to think about it)

The only thing that isn't worse is the street violence and that is only because the Juntas supporters are the ones who continually take to the streets to overthrow democracy and they have stopped now that democracy no longer exists.

 

PTP (under all guises) has only been around since 2000.

PTP has won every election this millennia, however, of the 17 years in this period - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011,2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 were all years where PTP could not govern because of unelected forces acting against them.

More than two thirds of their existence PTP have been denied their electoral mandate!

 

The military on the other hand has been around for a long, long time and they do not follow a single rule - ever!

Why are you so quiet on military reform?

 

Again, tell me what part of democracy has the Junta got right, have they beaten PTP's score of 1?

No!

[owl sees all]

20 minutes ago, ResandePohm said:

Their votes were bought through populist policy. Do you call that democracy?

When i first came to Isaan it was sooooo... backward. Many villages had no electricity; no running water; poor roads; inadequate medical and education systems. There have been massive improvements in many areas and there is still so much to do' no matter who rules the roost.

 

The Shins tapped into the inequality syndrome. They gave the people a voice (which they had never had before) made them feel as though they mattered. Surely it was their obligation to the vast majority of Thai people to redistribute the huge wealth of the country!? 

Edited May 23, 2017 by owl sees all
syntax error

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

Your response defies reason and logic.

 

The Junta should be temporary you say, but who can unseat them?

How do you suggest they be removed?

Certainly they can't be voted out can they!

 

Why should there even be a Junta?

Juntas are a step backwards, away from democracy not a step towards democracy.

What good reason was there for a coup when every single thing you complain about PTP is WORSE under the Junta.

(Stop for a second and read the above line again then take another minute to think about it)

The only thing that isn't worse is the street violence and that is only because the Juntas supporters are the ones who continually take to the streets to overthrow democracy and they have stopped now that democracy no longer exists.

 

PTP (under all guises) has only been around since 2000.

PTP has won every election this millennia, however, of the 17 years in this period - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011,2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 were all years where PTP could not govern because of unelected forces acting against them.

More than two thirds of their existence PTP have been denied their electoral mandate!

 

The military on the other hand has been around for a long, long time and they do not follow a single rule - ever!

Why are you so quiet on military reform?

 

Again, tell me what part of democracy has the Junta got right, have they beaten PTP's score of 1?

No!

Nope I disagree.. not every single thing is worse.. plenty of things are much better. (corruption for one, rule of law for an other)

Junta will unseat themselves.

Lets agree to disagree because you see things totally different and you and I will never see eye to eye here. If you think everything is worse and it was the anti goverment protesters who are to blame (who only came out after the amnesty and then got killed by the terrorist faction red shirts on command of the PTP (hard to prove but likely as Charlem used the killings to his advantage and never caught any of them). 

 

I am all for a PTP that plays by the rules but they don't. 

 

[Smarter Than You]

59 minutes ago, robblok said:

Sure if you keep believing that you might believe that Thaksin was honest too and that santa exists too. I am sorry to burst your bubble voting is just one of the principles of a democracy. If you ignore all other principles and break then its not fit to be called a democracy.

 

The current government has had far less corruption scandals then the PTP and has gone after far more corruption than the PTP ever did. Perfect.. no by not going after they PM his brother and nephew they lost a lot of credit.. but they did go after others and a lot of cases got solved. Without it the fake G2G deals that benefited the top ministers in YL her government (with YL saying there was no corruption) would never have happend. 

 

The current government is no democracy and should leave ASAP, but its better than the PTP in many fields and even though you guys deny it has had accomplishments.. minivans that have GPS in it and drive better.. beaches better managed, no street violence, No convicted criminal running a government from afar paying off the PM's and controlling them having them serve only his interests (his amnesty is why we had the coup.. it made it possible..it made it easy we might have had an coup for an other reason but it would not have been widely supported.;. it might not have happened but this amnesty brought together all people who were against the criminal from Dubai)... No off book 500 billion loss.. o 2.5 trillion off book loan from the Chinese. I could go on forever telling what was wrong with the PTP and what the junta did. In reality the PTP did almost nothing. Tablets that were not as promised.. rice program that bankrupted the country and brought farmers to kill themselves when miss airhead did not make provisions for payment. ect ect. Many of the crimes of the red shirts would not have been investigated. Charlem..actually protected the red shirt asassins and wanted the protesters to go away.... we cant protect you (of course not we are the ones behind the attacks we let slip the dogs of war)

 

The junta has its bad things too.. especially the control off the press and others is bad. Freedom of speech has taken a hit.. Nepotism still exists.. some corruption scandals too be it on a smaller scale. They certainly did not deliver all that was promised. I want them gone too, hopefully the controls that are put in place help to keep the PTP in check if they are in government. IF the PTP just follows the rules and works for the people there should be no problem.. but i doubt they will.. seen what they wanted before.. just an amnesty for Thaksin and to hell with the people.. risk it all for one man instead of helping the people. 

You have zero knowledge or understanding of the level of corruption by the Junta.

Nobody does because there is no mechanism to investigate the Junta, they are a law unto themselves.

Who investigated the Submarine deal - Junta cronies and guess what - no corruption found, amazing huh?

Section 44 hardly and arbitrary detention hardly encourages whistle blowing on corruption now does it.

 

You want to believe the Junta are less corrupt because it suits your immoral and repellent political views - that is all.

 

BTW - Logic would say that there was probably a lot less corruption under Yingluck if for no other reason that there was a well financed elite establishment bureaucracy thoroughly looking into every nook and cranny seeking a pre-text for a coup.

 

[Smarter Than You]

28 minutes ago, ResandePohm said:

Their votes were bought through populist policy. Do you call that democracy?

 

What a wonderful argument this is.

 

The majority of Thais are poor and a majority of Thais live in the north so any party that contests an election with policies that benefit the poor and the north are guilty of populism and therefore should not be allowed to govern.

 

Idiocy!

[Smarter Than You]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

Nope I disagree.. not every single thing is worse.. plenty of things are much better. (corruption for one, rule of law for an other)

Junta will unseat themselves.

Lets agree to disagree because you see things totally different and you and I will never see eye to eye here. If you think everything is worse and it was the anti goverment protesters who are to blame (who only came out after the amnesty and then got killed by the terrorist faction red shirts on command of the PTP (hard to prove but likely as Charlem used the killings to his advantage and never caught any of them). 

 

I am all for a PTP that plays by the rules but they don't. 

 

Nobody has a clue as to the level of corruption committed by this Junta, not even you, they are a law unto themselves.

 

The Junta will unseat themselves - why is this acceptable?

Would you hold the same view if it was PTP that were responsible for unseating themselves?

If not, you're a hypocrite.

 

Why are you for a PTP that plays by the rulebook AND for a Junta that DOESN'T play by the rulebook?

Why the double standard?

[Eric Loh]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

I am all for a PTP that plays by the rules but they don't. 

 

What rules have the PTP broke that the courts, corruption agencies and pressure groups have not took them to task, Robblok. On the other hand, you have the junta and their allies having their own rule book. 

[owl sees all]

3 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Democracy is a two edged sword. It is being able to vote for a person (or party) who will govern the country on behalf of, and for the benefit of, the people. And the country then respecting the vote (outcome) and allowing the person (or party) to get on with doing what they promised they would.

Along with the obvious, democracy should also enclose a fair and impartial judicial system, a police force that serves the people and corrupt free state employees.

 

All countries see the role of their military differently. But in most democratic countries the military is instructed by parliament. It just goes to show just how fragile Thai democracy is, always has been and maybe always will be.

 

And the biggest problem we can't talk about.

 

We live in hope BUT!!!

Edited May 23, 2017 by owl sees all
syntax error

[robblok]

18 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

Nobody has a clue as to the level of corruption committed by this Junta, not even you, they are a law unto themselves.

 

The Junta will unseat themselves - why is this acceptable?

Would you hold the same view if it was PTP that were responsible for unseating themselves?

If not, you're a hypocrite.

 

Why are you for a PTP that plays by the rulebook AND for a Junta that DOESN'T play by the rulebook?

Why the double standard?

No it would not be acceptable if the PTP had to unseat themselves..the junta are a medicine brought up by the PTP their failings and their divisive politics that brought out the street protests. Had they not gone for the Thaksin amnesty then the coup would either not have happened or would not have been so widely supported. Its a clear example how the PTP is not for the people but only for Thaksin.. is that acceptable to you >

[robblok]

28 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

You have zero knowledge or understanding of the level of corruption by the Junta.

Nobody does because there is no mechanism to investigate the Junta, they are a law unto themselves.

Who investigated the Submarine deal - Junta cronies and guess what - no corruption found, amazing huh?

Section 44 hardly and arbitrary detention hardly encourages whistle blowing on corruption now does it.

 

You want to believe the Junta are less corrupt because it suits your immoral and repellent political views - that is all.

 

BTW - Logic would say that there was probably a lot less corruption under Yingluck if for no other reason that there was a well financed elite establishment bureaucracy thoroughly looking into every nook and cranny seeking a pre-text for a coup.

 

Same as you have no evidence but you want them to be corrupt to suit your model of thought. While with the PTP there IS proof they are corrupt. Guess that does not suit you. 

[soalbundy]

Don't worry about waste, plenty more in the basket.

[Smarter Than You]

22 minutes ago, robblok said:

No it would not be acceptable if the PTP had to unseat themselves..the junta are a medicine brought up by the PTP their failings and their divisive politics that brought out the street protests. Had they not gone for the Thaksin amnesty then the coup would either not have happened or would not have been so widely supported. Its a clear example how the PTP is not for the people but only for Thaksin.. is that acceptable to you >

A great many Thais see PTP as a medicine for decades of neglect (and abuse) by the elites and the military.

So why is it acceptable for the military to unseat themselves and not PTP - you have no valid reason for your double standards!

 

You clearly don't understand the situation here at all, there was going to be a coup no matter what.

PTP's attempt to give amnesty for ALL players in the Red v Yellow conflicts was just a pretence for the forces against democracy.

Thais are not new to amnesty, the military give it to themselves every time they conduct a cop, why are you not bleating about this fact?

 

BTW - Was it amnesty, was it the rice scheme, was it Yinglucks transfer of one public servant, just why did there have to be a coup?

 

If PTP are solely for Thaksin why was their amnesty proposal so all encompassing?

Their own supporters hated it because it meant that those who killed 100 reds in 2010 would not face justice.

It would have been far easier just to take care of Thaksin and forget the rest.

 

Why can the Junta unseat themselves but PTP can't???

[mike324]

both sides of the political spectrum as equally as bad and equally as corrupted, I think the main difference is that political groups such as PTP / DEMs actions have a bigger impact on citizens compare to the army/military. Especially when the police aligns with the PTP makes it even worse. 

 

Of course now that the army Prayuth is in charge, they are in the hot seat. I believe Thailand has indeed slipped backwards with the army in charge, but change is needed before thailand moves forward again. 2 steps back 1 step forward hopefully in the right direction in the future.

[billd766]

13 hours ago, heybruce said:

The infrastructure improvements you list are just standard progress in the rural areas.  They also are small compared to the improvements to infrastructure in rural areas made when Thaksin was in charge.

 

The low level "local politics" you mention may or may not be a good thing, but they in no way justify military rule.

 

Please show and tell of the infrastructure improvements made under ALL the Thaksin governments covering ALL of Thailand.

[halloween]

22 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

A great many Thais see PTP as a medicine for decades of neglect (and abuse) by the elites and the military.

So why is it acceptable for the military to unseat themselves and not PTP - you have no valid reason for your double standards!

 

You clearly don't understand the situation here at all, there was going to be a coup no matter what.

PTP's attempt to give amnesty for ALL players in the Red v Yellow conflicts was just a pretence for the forces against democracy.

Thais are not new to amnesty, the military give it to themselves every time they conduct a cop, why are you not bleating about this fact?

 

BTW - Was it amnesty, was it the rice scheme, was it Yinglucks transfer of one public servant, just why did there have to be a coup?

 

If PTP are solely for Thaksin why was their amnesty proposal so all encompassing?

Their own supporters hated it because it meant that those who killed 100 reds in 2010 would not face justice.

It would have been far easier just to take care of Thaksin and forget the rest.

 

Why can the Junta unseat themselves but PTP can't???

An amnesty solely for Thaksin would have been a blatantly corrupt conflict of interest act. But why should that deter them, it never did before. And those "who killed 100 reds in 2010" (too much red Kool-Aid, old son) didn't want or need an amnesty, they were caring out the legitimate tasks.

The purpose of the coup was to stop the political violence from PTP's private militia (the red thugs led by UDD) from killing those protesting while the BIB did nothing. do you remember the Honda car stopped near the protest site, passengers with guns and a grenade, no charges laid? do you remember the murdered children, innocent bystanders?

[USPatriot]

While her brother pilfered Thailand and its people. Maybe start by returning the money to the hard working people she and her brother got it from

[robblok]

25 minutes ago, mike324 said:

both sides of the political spectrum as equally as bad and equally as corrupted, I think the main difference is that political groups such as PTP / DEMs actions have a bigger impact on citizens compare to the army/military. Especially when the police aligns with the PTP makes it even worse. 

 

Of course now that the army Prayuth is in charge, they are in the hot seat. I believe Thailand has indeed slipped backwards with the army in charge, but change is needed before thailand moves forward again. 2 steps back 1 step forward hopefully in the right direction in the future.

Not only are they both bad.. but without a change in government the PTP corruption and crimes would be hidden forever. Problem here is that only a change of power makes prosecution possible of the people formerly in power. The PTP had some investigation coming and it cleaned up some things I am quite happy about that. It shows them they are not above the law.

[Smarter Than You]

26 minutes ago, robblok said:

Not only are they both bad.. but without a change in government the PTP corruption and crimes would be hidden forever. Problem here is that only a change of power makes prosecution possible of the people formerly in power. The PTP had some investigation coming and it cleaned up some things I am quite happy about that. It shows them they are not above the law.

So you expect the current regime to be prosecuted when PTP win the next election?

 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

I hold it against the junta too.. but people who defend the PTP only with they voted so its ok get this reply from me. Also the junta should be temporarily.. the PTP has been here in one or an other incarnation for a long time and they constantly break the rules. The only part of a democracy that they got right is getting voted in.. after that it stops. 

"I hold it against the junta too"

 

Really?  You're very discrete about it.

 

"the PTP has been here in one or an other incarnation for a long time and they constantly break the rules."

 

And the military has been here, overtly or behind the scenes, since 1932.  The current junta has been in office for as long as the PTP government.  However it doesn't have to break the rules, they constantly write their own rules and grant themselves amnesty for their crimes. 

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

Sure if you keep believing that you might believe that Thaksin was honest too and that santa exists too. I am sorry to burst your bubble voting is just one of the principles of a democracy. If you ignore all other principles and break then its not fit to be called a democracy.

 

The current government has had far less corruption scandals then the PTP and has gone after far more corruption than the PTP ever did. Perfect.. no by not going after they PM his brother and nephew they lost a lot of credit.. but they did go after others and a lot of cases got solved. Without it the fake G2G deals that benefited the top ministers in YL her government (with YL saying there was no corruption) would never have happend. 

 

The current government is no democracy and should leave ASAP, but its better than the PTP in many fields and even though you guys deny it has had accomplishments.. minivans that have GPS in it and drive better.. beaches better managed, no street violence, No convicted criminal running a government from afar paying off the PM's and controlling them having them serve only his interests (his amnesty is why we had the coup.. it made it possible..it made it easy we might have had an coup for an other reason but it would not have been widely supported.;. it might not have happened but this amnesty brought together all people who were against the criminal from Dubai)... No off book 500 billion loss.. o 2.5 trillion off book loan from the Chinese. I could go on forever telling what was wrong with the PTP and what the junta did. In reality the PTP did almost nothing. Tablets that were not as promised.. rice program that bankrupted the country and brought farmers to kill themselves when miss airhead did not make provisions for payment. ect ect. Many of the crimes of the red shirts would not have been investigated. Charlem..actually protected the red shirt asassins and wanted the protesters to go away.... we cant protect you (of course not we are the ones behind the attacks we let slip the dogs of war)

 

The junta has its bad things too.. especially the control off the press and others is bad. Freedom of speech has taken a hit.. Nepotism still exists.. some corruption scandals too be it on a smaller scale. They certainly did not deliver all that was promised. I want them gone too, hopefully the controls that are put in place help to keep the PTP in check if they are in government. IF the PTP just follows the rules and works for the people there should be no problem.. but i doubt they will.. seen what they wanted before.. just an amnesty for Thaksin and to hell with the people.. risk it all for one man instead of helping the people. 

"voting is just one of the principles of a democracy"

 

There is another thread about the junta attempting to ban words such as "junta" and "coup", on this thread you are defining "democracy" to suit your needs.  You and the junta have similar Orwellian tendencies.

 

Democratic government is government in which those in power are chosen by fair elections, and the electorate are given regular opportunities to re-elect these people or kick them out.  Different dictionaries use different words, but that is always the general idea.  All the other principals you insist are a requirement are a good idea for good governance, but they are not requirements for democracies.  The Yugo lacked many of the qualities of a fine car, but it was still a car.

 

The defensiveness of the junta defenders in this matter is revealing; you are desperate to deny the obvious--the military coup toppled an legitimately elected government that was attempting to hold another election.  It toppled a democracy, and by defending it you are choosing military autocracy over democracy.

 

Your claim that the junta is engaged in less corruption is unlikely to withstand rigorous scrutiny, which is why the junta will never allow such scrutiny.  However by disrespecting their partners in crime, the Royal Thai Police, the military was exposed to be a key player in human trafficking.  Imagine what a proper investigation of them would reveal.

Edited May 23, 2017 by heybruce

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, ResandePohm said:

Their votes were bought through populist policy. Do you call that democracy?

 

Yes. It's democracy as it's practiced all over the world.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

An amnesty solely for Thaksin would have been a blatantly corrupt conflict of interest act. But why should that deter them, it never did before. And those "who killed 100 reds in 2010" (too much red Kool-Aid, old son) didn't want or need an amnesty, they were caring out the legitimate tasks.

The purpose of the coup was to stop the political violence from PTP's private militia (the red thugs led by UDD) from killing those protesting while the BIB did nothing. do you remember the Honda car stopped near the protest site, passengers with guns and a grenade, no charges laid? do you remember the murdered children, innocent bystanders?

The amnesty bill was withdrawn.  The government chose to try to contain protests and let them die of apathy rather than engage in a bloody crackdown.  The government was attempting to hold elections.  The protests were dying of apathy.

 

The coup was unnecessary, but anti-democrats refuse to accept that.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

Please show and tell of the infrastructure improvements made under ALL the Thaksin governments covering ALL of Thailand.

My recollection of the difference between the north of Thailand in 2000 and 2006 are quite dramatic.  Numerous news reports over the years credit Thaksin's government with greatly improving roads, healthcare and education in the poor parts of Thailand.  I will look for hard numbers on this, but an English language breakdown of the numbers may not exist.

 

Do you have hard numbers about the infrastructure improvements made by the junta covering all of Thailand?  I've heard lots of talk, but the only action, in the form of signed contracts, seems to be submarines.

[robblok]

The amnesty bill was withdrawn.  The government chose to try to contain protests and let them die of apathy rather than engage in a bloody crackdown.  The government was attempting to hold elections.  The protests were dying of apathy.
 
The coup was unnecessary, but anti-democrats refuse to accept that.

The bill could be revived and then passed. That was why protests went on. The government let their red terrorist do the dirty work killing people under the protection of the capo led by Charlem. The red supporters forget this.

[KenKadz]

Good for Ms. Yingluck, calling out the military government in front of the whole country/world!

They made grand promises and failed to deliver!

Still looking for "Happy to the People" and "Happy Zones"?

And all I see is more xenophobia!

 

A little bit like their canary ass getting eaten up by their alligator mouth!

 

Xenophobia - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

Jump to Definitions - Dictionary definitions of xenophobia include: "deep-rooted fear towards foreigners" (Oxford English Dictionary; OED), and "fear of the ...

[yardrunner]

22 hours ago, owl sees all said:

If there was a 'fair and open' election, Y Shin's party (whatever they might be called) would sweep to power with 70% plus.

 

The difference is that the military, through their changes and  reforms, would have no intention of letting the government run the country.

 

The military will be an iron fist in a velvet glove for years to come.

or an iron fist in an iron gauntlet

[yardrunner]

23 minutes ago, robblok said:

The bill could be revived and then passed. That was why protests went on. The government let their red terrorist do the dirty work killing people under the protection of the capo led by Charlem. The red supporters forget this.

i see that you still have the blinkers on

[metisdead]

A post containing a "Sent from my nose" troll comment has been removed.  Continue to use that comment in your posts and your posts will disappear. 

[robblok]

2 hours ago, Smarter Than You said:

So you expect the current regime to be prosecuted when PTP win the next election?

 

I would certainly hope so, I wont hold my breath but it would be good. Fact remains many corrupt crimes of the PTP would have gone unpunished and undetected if not for the coup. Now they could not hide it anymore as they were out of power. 

[JimGant]

Actually, watching democracy develop in third/second world nations is a joke (or post Trump, even "first" world nations). Heck, it's certainly not always the way to get the best leaders in office, based on the knowledge and smarts (or lack thereof) of the universal electorate -- even assuming an honest election, most times a rare event. A 'benevolent dictator" (benevolent, smart, dedicated, and honest) would often be the best option in this scenario -- if one could be found (or self-established). A close followup would be to ensure the electorate understands what's being voted on.

 

The US, in its infancy, tried to limit voting to the "smart folks" -- white, male, land owners (those likely to be educated) -- hoping the electorate could correctly choose. This prevailed for awhile, but now we have universal suffrage -- and so many non thinkers swallowed Trump's cool aid about how he'll fix this and that (without analyzing all the facts) that we now have President Bozo. Fortunately, when we realize the wrong person got elected, we have our own form of "coup," called impeachment. Thus, democracy's checks and balances does allow for dumping the incompetent.

 

Thailand, however, had no impeachment avenue that I'm aware of. Thus, incompetence had to be addressed by the coup process.

 

And Thailand has thrived in past post coup years (see the Prem years).

 

However, the jury is still out on Thailand's last three years, and Prayuth's leadership. My take (and many others I know of) is that Prayuth is highly dedicated, honest, and above average in smarts. Slow going at first (inheriting YL's economy), things seem now to be improving at a nice pace. He's put excellent people in key positions -- notably, Somkid -- TRT's economic's brain that finally addressed the poor element of Thai population. An element Prayuth is certainly not ignoring. Corruption? Not to be eliminated in our lifetime (seemingly interwoven into the fabric). But certainly a problem that Prayuth is seriously addressing. Too many admirals and generals in leadership positions? Hey, proven leadership is a plus -- just ask Trump about why he's hired so many flag officers. Anyway, I think Prayuth has been -- and continues to be -- an asset to Thailand. I see no hint of self service. I think his leadership will continue to be a plus for Thailand.

 

Democracy? Highly overrated at this juncture . Give me a dedicated leader, however arrived at, who can address the problems of the nation intelligently -- and keep all aspects of nation building in perspective. (Just look at Venezuela, to see how over exuberant populism can metastasize.)

 

Has anybody reading this been even slightly inconvenienced by the junta? I thought not (ok, ok, you with the Molotov Cocktail please wait for the next election. Meanwhile the rest of will enjoy the peace and quiet of this great country -- under the current administration).