Pla ra - liver flukes

[Enoon]

4 hours ago, randymarsh said:

 

You haven't particularly corrected anything about the process of making the pla ra used in tam; just claimed the fish used can't cause flukes.  Evidence suggests it does (if not cooked).

 

 

"People get infection by eating uncooked cyprinoid fish harboring infective metacercariae of the fluke. Due to poor sanitation practices, infected people pass parasite eggs in their feces into natural water reservoirs, where the parasite eggs are eaten by snails of the genus Bithynia, the first intermediate host of the O. viverrini life cycle (Fig. 3). After several developmental stages in the snail, the parasite releases as free swimming cercariae from the infected snails and locates cyprinoid fishes, encyst in the fins, skin and muscles of the fish, and become metacercariae. Infection is accomplished when people ingest raw or undercooked fish in dishes such as koi pla and in turn the parasite’s life cycle is completed. An estimated 6 million people are infected with O. viverrini in Thailand. However, geographical pattern of the liver fluke infection is not uniform, with greatest prevalence in the North (19.3%), and Northeast (15.7%) compared with the Central (3.8%) and southern regions (0%) (Fig 2) [23•]. Despite widespread chemotherapy with praziquantel that has been implemented in the past, the prevalence of O. viverrini in some endemic areas approaches 70%".

 

Cyprinidae - Wikipedia

 

http://www.medicine.cmu.ac.th/dept/parasite/trematodes/IH_fish.htm

Eye Spot Barb, Sakon Nakhon. (Typical host fish)

 

 

Preparation of a Meal of Koi-Pla Using Uncooked Cyprinoid Fishes:

https://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=PMC1913093_pmed.0040201.g001&req=4

 

Udon leads world in Liver Fluke cancer

"Another culprit linked to this cancer is "Nitosamine", a carcinogenic agent directly involved in causing cancer.
Nitosamine is commonly found in fermented fish sauce and fermented proteins and pickled fish and meats.
"To make fermented fish sauce safe, all you have to do is boil it," says Bancha. "But not all sellers do this."
Adding to the problem is ignorance and misinformation.
"The myth is the parasites and carcinogens can be killed by drinking lots of alcohol like whisky.
"Another is they believe marinating lime into raw fish kills them. But these are proven by tests to be completely untrue."
Bancha says many farmers admit knowing that eating raw fish and unsafe fermented fish sauce is risky and can lead to cancer.
"But they stubbornly refuse to give up this culinary culture, which is deeply ingrained in Isaan."

 

One of the first Thai mortalities that was spoken of to me was that of a grandfather who died as a result of this.

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Enoon

[Moonlover]

11 hours ago, bangkokairportlink said:

You are dreaming about what your wife knows, OF COURSE.

She just knows nothing that all the local who need to die of cancer to start thinking that they did something wrong. As the ones who need to die on the road to start thinking that they were not driving safely.

 

10 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Both of my wife's brothers died of liver cancer. quite recently. Believe me she has studied the cause  of liver fluke very thoroughly indeed! 

I'll make one more comment here for the OP's benefit. As you can see from the above comments, my wife has been directly affected by liver fluke infection and its consequences.

 

Following the death of her elder brothers, both in their early 50's, she and and other family members were screened and a number, including her were found to be positive and have now been successfully treated. And she confirms that they all ate koi plaa in their younger days. From their direct experience, one thing is clear, and this very relevant to the OP.

 

There are absolutely no symptoms associated with liver fluke infestation until the parasite begins to attack the liver, which can be 20 to 30 years following infestation.

 

So whatever is ailing your gut OP, it is not likely to be liver fluke. As Sheryl pointed out earlier, there other pathogens associated with  pla ra that you may be suffering from. Don't overlook the fact that your thai friend's gut bio and their immune system will be quite different from yours. They've been brought up on this stuff, you haven't.

 

Good luck, happy eating and take care.

[randymarsh]

Thanks to everyone everyone for the information in this thread.  

 

I think 2 years of eating pretty much anything in isaan with no regard for whether it was cooked or not puts me at a reasonably high risk so worth a check up.

 

I think conclusion is:

 

1. If it's not cooked, don't eat it e.g. koi

 

2. If it's somtam or any isaan meal that uses pla ra (a lot of the meals use pla ra and you'd never know as they could also have used regular fish sauce), make sure the pla ra used has been cooked (boiled).  If you don't trust the seller e.g. outside food stand, don't buy it.

 

3. The labelled bottles of pla ra sold in places like tesco have been cooked and are safe 

 

4. If you've eaten isaan food for a while, get checked as there are very rarely any symptoms until it's too late 

 

 

[bangkokairportlink]

And what about raw shrimps ? Any problem eating Kung Chai Nam Plaa ?

 

 

[tonray]

2 hours ago, bangkokairportlink said:

And what about raw shrimps ? Any problem eating Kung Chai Nam Plaa ?

 

 

Commercial farmed shrimp are not the best for your health.. Not sure what the source is for this but shrimp farming is a dirty, fetid business. Better to avoid unless you know the source of shrimp maybe not for flukes but for the sheer filth these shrimp are raised in. 

[blissbliss]

Cholangiocarcinoma is caused by Ophistochris viverini  (liver fluke in pla-ra) . I recommend that u should stop eating raw fish (pla-ra) .Khon-kan have the highest Cholang CA prevalence in the world !! Once you got infected from OV it will be staying in your bile duct and it's usually asymptomatic early.Almost patient will have symptoms when it's become advanced stage .CCA have very high mortality rate about 50 percent so don't eat raw fish :D .

[kickstart]

22 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

The host snail live in  wet  conditions.

The  fish live where? Any  species !

 

The school I went said  fish live in a  substance called  water ,the snails  that cause liver fluke live in  wet grass pasture , that you can walk on ,and so can cattle and sheep ,that  is how  thay eat the snails  and start off  the liver fluke cycale .

To my knowledge cattle and sheep can not walk on water, and eat the snails unless him up in the hevens breed  a new species of cattle and sheep , that can. 

Google liver fluke in cattle and sheep and have a read.

[Dumbastheycome]

6 minutes ago, kickstart said:

The school I went said  fish live in a  substance called  water ,the snails  that cause liver fluke live in  wet grass pasture , that you can walk on ,and so can cattle and sheep ,that  is how  thay eat the snails  and start off  the liver fluke cycale .

To my knowledge cattle and sheep can not walk on water, and eat the snails unless him up in the hevens breed  a new species of cattle and sheep , that can. 

Google liver fluke in cattle and sheep and have a read.

lol.  You  took the   bait.

There  are  more  than  125   species  (and   rising ) of   snail in  Thailand  and  quite  a few   water  snails.

There  are  also varieties  of   fluke.

Shisto is a  major  concern in  connection  with  water  snail and  the  infection  rate  is  second  only  to   malaria in  the  tropics. 

[kickstart]

21 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

lol.  You  took the   bait.

There  are  more  than  125   species  (and   rising ) of   snail in  Thailand  and  quite  a few   water  snails.

There  are  also varieties  of   fluke.

Shisto is a  major  concern in  connection  with  water  snail and  the  infection  rate  is  second  only  to   malaria in  the  tropics. 

Looking at my veterinary  dictionary fascioides  gigantica  is the main parasite of cattle and sheep in the tropics and  in wild animals that will cause liver fluke , comeing from the snail.

This  genus is  more pathogenic  than some of the liver fluke  genus found  in  our cooler climates , so it would have the potential to cause more problems, than in a cooler climate.

[Dumbastheycome]

1 hour ago, kickstart said:

Looking at my veterinary  dictionary fascioides  gigantica  is the main parasite of cattle and sheep in the tropics and  in wild animals that will cause liver fluke , comeing from the snail.

This  genus is  more pathogenic  than some of the liver fluke  genus found  in  our cooler climates , so it would have the potential to cause more problems, than in a cooler climate.

True. Note that this trematode primarily infects  water  snails. Animals  that   graze on  water  weeds rather that  standard  pasture  are   susceptible  to infection as  are  fish  because even though these  snails  are air breathing they  deposit infection across  the  spectrum of their  habitat.

And  that   habitat  involves  significant  water sufficient  for  fish  or  alternatively.. water  cress etc.

In  general  terms  the   risk  is  much  higher in  localities  of  Thailand from raw or  undercooked fish  rather than the   limited   consumption  of  beef  or  mutton (especially the  latter).

The usual domestic method  of  producing   fish sauce  is  to  toss  whatever  fish  into  a  container  and  let  it  rot  down. The  result  is  a brew  of something  that  could  easily  be  classified  as  a  biological  weapon of   mass  destruction due  to the  cocktail  of  unknown  pathogens it  contains !

Edited May 31, 2017 by Dumbastheycome

[sinbin]

Is there any similarity, taste wise, to the Swedish Sursromming ?

 

[Dumbastheycome]

2 minutes ago, sinbin said:

Is there any similarity, taste wise, to the Swedish Sursromming ?

 

Possibly. lol

[free123]

On 29.5.2017 at 7:17 AM, Sheryl said:

The dose for liver fluke is indeed 25 mg/kg 3 times a day for 2 days. So yes, 3 tablets 3 times a day.

 

It is taken in a much lower dose for intestinal worms, but this is the liver fluke dosage.

 

You should really stop eating that stuff.  In addition to liver fluke it can transmit Hepatitis.

after every somtam ( that should be eaten with 10 + chilis ) u should flush it down with a half bottle of good old mekong...no bloody germs would survive that..

[jrjrjr]

On 5/30/2017 at 10:35 AM, bangkokairportlink said:

And what about raw shrimps ? Any problem eating Kung Chai Nam Plaa ?

 

 

 

 

Also wondering ?

 

And too many Thai believe that it is cooked almost everywhere in restaurants or market, but this is BS, most plara$hit that Thai eat is raw.