Jobs forbidden for foreigners - Labor ministry says law is out of date and there will be changes

[Time Traveller]

Just now, speckio said:

I would say a major issue skilled or educated work force in thailand is Salary.

 

The average salary of a programmer is 29,000 baht (less than $900) while the average salary of a programmer in a western country is much higher. IE Middle and upper-class Thais send their children to get educated in a western country and a small percentage come back to actually contribute to Thailand's skilled workforce. 

So? That 29,000 baht is more than programmers get paid in India. Thailand is not after western workers

[Essaybloke]

So my career as a farang erotic dancer is safe, ya?  

[YetAnother]

15 hours ago, ukrules said:

I literally can't wait to see how they <deleted> this up, I'm almost certain that whatever they change it will be to the detriment of the country as a whole.

They do have that track record,

An out-of-date law in Thailand;

shocking!!

[nasanews]

Just wondering because I was offered a job in insurance company, is that illegal?

[webfact]

‘Forbidden Careers’ For Expats May Be Relaxed, Official Says

By Teeranai Charuvastra, Staff Reporter

 

  

A foreigner may soon be able to work as a handicraft artisan, a job currently reserved for Thais. Original image by Matichon.

 

BANGKOK — The infamous list of occupations reserved for Thais may soon be a thing of the past, a labor official said Wednesday.

 

Citing the outdated nature of the law and the need for more foreign workers in Thailand, labor department head Waranon Pitiwan said his office is considering relaxing the decades-long regulations that reserves 39 jobs for Thais.

 

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/politics/2017/07/20/forbidden-careers-expats-may-relaxed-official-says/

 

-- © Copyright Khaosod English 2017-07-20

[timendres]

14 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Oh, what a surprise that this article appeared today as well.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-18/skills-gap-tests-thai-junta-s-goal-of-forging-innovative-economy

Interesting how the plummet on that chart coincides perfectly with the proliferation of smart phones and Facebook.

[Asernume]

18 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

So? That 29,000 baht is more than programmers get paid in India. Thailand is not after western workers

Several studies are stating that Thailand lacks skilled labour, especially in IT. He's saying there's a brain drain, because the salary differential is so high, Thai programmers choose to work abroad rather than come back to work in Thailand.

 

He's not saying that Thailand needs western programmers (although that probably would help, especially since so many seem ready to work for a low salary in Thailand).

[sawadee1947]

No 19 must be a mistake.....it should obviously be TROLL making....

[Dogmatix]

14 hours ago, SoFarAndNear said:

Should give foreigners with thai wife and children more possibilities like no foreign/thai worker quota. So you can at least work legal for the own family business.

 

You can work legally for your own family business.  You just need to meet the qualifications, not plan to work in a restricted occupation like retail, and apply for a work permit.  

[Dogmatix]

In order refresh memories of the current list of prohibited occupations, it seems a good time to recall that masterpiece of translation work that appeared on the Ministry of Labour's website on 11th August 2015 and stayed for a few days until remarked upon by the local English language press.

 

Career aliens do not.

Not alien to the professional set of career. Professional and not an alien to do.

Account end decree.
Set in professional video and tea alien life that do not.
2522.

1. The proletariat.

2. Farmers gas party animals of the forest or fishery, except that the use of specialized expertise or the control of farms.
3. The masonry construction or other carpentry work.
4. Carved wood.
5. The driving vehicle. The driver or vehicle that does not use machinery or mechanical. Exception of the pilot countries.
6. The sale of every page.
7. The auction.
8. Monitoring or control services unless account the interim audit.
9. The cut or polished diamonds or pebble.
10. The haircut or the curl of beauty.
11. Work hand-weaving.
12. Of woven mats or work appliances with rattan reed or straw, hemp bamboo pulp.
13. Paper hand job.
14. Lacquer work.
15. Thai musical work.
16. Job filling machine.
17. Work a gold or silver otter.
18. Lghin a job.
19. Job Thai dolls.
20. Berth blanket mitt work.
21. The card.
22. The products made from silk hand.
23. Job Buddha.
24. Work knife.
25. Indoor work with paper or cloth.
26. Work shoes.
27. Work hat.
28. The broker or the agent unless the agent or broker in the business of international trade.
29. Work in the engineering profession. Civil Engineering. Associated with the design calculations and organize research project construction control testing. Or advice. Excluding the special expertise required.
30. Job-related professional architectural design drawings about price director of construction or advice.
31. Crafts apparel.
32. The sculpture or pottery making.
33. The roll by hand.
34. The guide. Or the organized tour.
35. Hawk the product.
36. Work individually hand-printed Thai characters.
37. The young, and some hand-twisting spiral.
38. The clerk or secretarial staff.
39. Work for legal services or legal action.

 

This is Google's cache of http://www.mol.go.th/en/content/page/6347. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 11 Aug 2015 04:10:07 GMT.

The current page could have changed in the meantime. Learn more

Edited July 20, 2017 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

I am surprised that tourists caught smoking joints are not charged with working at restricted occupation 33, Rolling cigarettes by hand. They ought to be thankful for small mercies.   

[greenchair]

11 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

You can work legally for your own family business.  You just need to meet the qualifications, not plan to work in a restricted occupation like retail, and apply for a work permit.  

No, because they must be a company and hire 4 thai for 1 foreigner. That's 40000 baht a month for the salaries plus provident fund and taxes 

[anon467367354]

I don't think the problem really has anything to do with jobs "foreigners" are forbidden to do, it's more like jobs Caucasians are not allowed to do. Diversity is strength. What's missing is a means for anyone willing to work to be able to work, even if it's 10 hours a week, to pay taxes and contribute to the Thai economy. The more working, the better the economy.

Why can't Thailand do like other countries and provide a means for anybody that can get hired by a Thai business, provide a service, and contribute like anyone else? If a Thai business wants to pay someone, anyone, and people, Thai people want to pay for that or those services, why can't they? If the Thai people pay a foreigner for a service, that should be their choice and by paying foreigners willingly should be proof that those services are of value. People don't pay for things that have no value.  Why can't Thailand create a "green card" system where it's up to the business owner to hire whomever they wish and pay those people whatever is a fair market wage? Competition is good, but this is not really competition as much as it is capitalism. Governments that try to micro-manage people's lives has proven time and time again to fail. Let's move forward, shall we?

[humqdpf]

Let me guess at what will feature on the new list:

 

teacher of foreign languages

 

[aslimversgwm]

15 hours ago, Moonmoon said:

Its about time, my Thai security guard at my condo was getting tired of rolling my ciggarettes for me...

So funny mate! 

[aslimversgwm]

1 hour ago, IAMHERE said:

How many mini mats may a mini mat maker make?

funny! and quite clever - well done sir!

[hotchilli]

The list should be zero, it's protectionism at best, racist at worst!

[Beechboy]

Nigerian ladies of the street are working surely.

 

Will they be exempt?

 

"Riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a puzzle"

 

TIT.

 

 

[Arkady]

To put this in its historical perspective for those who might be interested, the system of issuing lists of restricted occupations actually long pre-dates the requirement for work permits which explains why it has not hitherto been included in working of aliens legislation.  The first list was published in the 1930s during the Great Depression when Thai farmers flocked to the cities seeking work after crop and land prices had collapsed, only to find that employers were only interested in hiring hard working coolies imported from China by the boat load.  

 

The current list of 39 restricted occupations is in the form of a Royal Decree of 1979. That was the year following the first Working of Aliens Act of 1978 which introduced the system of work permits for the first time.  (Those who were already working and had PR which was easy to obtain then were granted lifetime work permits to continue in the same profession.)  

 

The 2008 Working of Aliens Act included a clause that required the Ministry of Labour to issue a new list of restricted occupations in line with current requirements within 12 months of the promulgation of the law.  For reasons better known to itself the ministry decided to ignore this and violated the law it was supposed to police by refusing to issue the list before the law was repealed this year.  

 

The current list is 38 years old but was in fact largely unchanged from its predecessors of earlier decades.  Therefore it certainly high time for a new list in keeping with the needs of the Thai economy and society.  Let's see what they can come up with.      

[Dave67]

The mat maker's and cigarette roller's from around the world are rejoicing 

[munchlet]

Well I understand the cynical nature of the replies here, but this eduation issue actually goes to the heart of what is wrong with Thailand, actually, the biggest issue if faces, SKILLS, or rather the lack of them. The education ministry is regarded as a prime milk cow for whichever party gets to run it, My daughter, who holds a Thai passport, worked in a Thai School and could not believe the sycophantic rubbish relating to nationalistic rubbish that was being stuffed down their throats, not to mention the mind numbingly facile nature of the curriculum. There are so many skills which could be transferred to Thai nationals by liberalising laws relating to foreigners working here.

 

I recently met a South African Gal who was teaching English in Surat Thani. She told me that 1) She had to pass all the students, regardless of how hopelessly moronic they were and, even more amazingly, get this, 2) was not allowed to teach grammar in class only how to speak. The reasoning behind this is apparently that only Thai nationals are capable of teaching English Grammar to Thais. This explains so much. I have met Thai teachers of English in the Thai system, I could hardly make them understand me, let alone understand their replies, until I reverted to my own mangled Thai landguage skills.

 

Aside from this there is the rote learning issue, corruption at every level, mind numbing centralised bureaucracy and just for even more fun, the fact that there have been 17 Education ministers in the last 16 years. No policy, no continuity. Thailand will not die if these problems are sorted out, but it is never going to reach its potential. It seems that the only growth business I can detect is around is massage spas, and the number of girls in there with qualifications coming out of the wazoo in all kinds of subjects is amazing. Their skills are being wasted. The degrees they have are probably useless and/or in totally irrelevant subjects to the ones required by the  real economy. Surely it is time the government gets the idea that unless a serious upgrade of education takes place, it is condemning its young to a life of totally unambitious mediocrity. They are just being set up to be exploited by venal buisness owners rather than being free thinking individuals able to realise their potential.

 

I love this country. Have been here for most of the last 30 years. This is its real tragedy, the waste of human resources promoted by its own crooked and outdated education system........ Shame, real SHAME.

[Xaos]

Hope they will allow farmers gas parties

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[seancbk]

2 minutes ago, Arkady said:

To put this in its historical perspective for those who might be interested, the system of issuing lists of restricted occupations actually long pre-dates the requirement for work permits which explains why it has not hitherto been included in working of aliens legislation.  The first list was published in the 1930s during the Great Depression when Thai farmers flocked to the cities seeking work after crop and land prices had collapsed, only to find that employers were only interested in hiring hard working coolies imported from China by the boat load.  

 

The current list of 39 restricted occupations is in the form of a Royal Decree of 1979. That was the year following the first Working of Aliens Act of 1978 which introduced the system of work permits for the first time.  (Those who were already working and had PR which was easy to obtain then were granted lifetime work permits to continue in the same profession.)  

 

The 2008 Working of Aliens Act included a clause that required the Ministry of Labour to issue a new list of restricted occupations in line with current requirements within 12 months of the promulgation of the law.  For reasons better known to itself the ministry decided to ignore this and violated the law it was supposed to police by refusing to issue the list before the law was repealed this year.  

 

The current list is 38 years old but was in fact largely unchanged from its predecessors of earlier decades.  Therefore it certainly high time for a new list in keeping with the needs of the Thai economy and society.  Let's see what they can come up with.      

People should also understand, if they don't already, that the list has nothing to do with Caucasian foreigners and everything to do with workers from countries bordering Thailand.

I actually believe that there will be opportunities for Westerners to work here, especially in things like App development.    

[Arkady]

He said that foreigners are only allowed to be laborers...

 

This is puzzling because the very first restricted occupation on the list is that of labourer. I have never understood how successive governments has justified the MOUs with neighbouring countries regarding the importation of labourers without bothering to amend or scrap this Royal Decree.  The other restricted occupation that is breached en masse by migrant workers is that of working in retail (#6), including shops and restaurants.   

 

I am sure the main intention is to regularise the system of migrant labour vis a vis restricted occupations.  They may also decide to open up accounting since the prohibition conflicts with the obligation to allow ASEAN citizens to work in accounting and auditing, but they will probably maintain Thai language requirements as long as they can.  At any rate, it seems relatively easy for foreigners to work as auditors and CFOs etc but they are inconvenienced by not being allowed to sign anything in their real capacities and have to get work permits that specify 'advisor' or 'general manager'.  

 

I somehow that this is any intention to open up the list more than they have to to reflect the reality of migrant labour and the obligations to ASEAN but we'll see.

[Dogmatix]

21 minutes ago, Beechboy said:

Nigerian ladies of the street are working surely.

 

Will they be exempt?

 

"Riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a puzzle"

 

TIT.

 

 

 

Prostitution is not on the current list.

[farcanell]

Call me contrary, but I'm of the opinion that they need a list of jobs that Thais should be forbidden from doing

 

for example.... teaching.

 

"in fact, the only thing non specialists could engage in were manual labor and housework"... , ( paragraph six), claimed the labor ministery spokesman

 

yet... number one on the list provided is laboring.

[craigt3365]

I find it disturbingly hypocritical.  The existing laws are broken every day by thousands of people and companies.  Illegal maids, gardeners, construction crews, hotel staff, etc, etc, etc.  All dealt with by an under the table payment.  What about that lady in immigration who made millions of Baht issuing work permits under the table.  With the right connections and some cash, it's not super difficult.

 

New laws will mean nothing unless this corruption is dealt with.  Sadly, won't happen in my lifetime. LOL

[natway09]

Pinot. That is the real problem,,,,, they don't even know what they want!!

[Arkady]

14 hours ago, zd1 said:

The rolling cigarettes is a bit ridiculous, I prefer roll ups to tailor made  in fact I don't like tailor made cigarettes at all.

In my many years of smoking I have discovered that I now make a perfect roll up and to teach somebody to do it the same way as me would take a lot more time and effort than doing it myself, plus I would be teaching them to do it so could violate my visa, maybe I could get a work permit for cigarette rolling teacher, I could start an academy could make millions.

 

Actually this restriction was clearly already archaic by the time the current list was published in 1979 because cigarette rolling had been a monopoly of the Government Tobacco Monopoly since the 1950s.  So the only employer legally employing any kind of cigarette roller was the government.  It was simply regurgitated from previous versions of the list without thought. 

 

The propensity to cut and paste from earlier laws, resulting in redundant and archaic provisions is, unfortunately, quite typical of Thai legislation, as is the propensity to keep things vague and open to shifting interpretations by bureaucrats and courts.    

[lifeincnx]

So glad to know I can clean out our fat trap without breaking any labor laws. Though come to think of it, I could tell my wife it's illegal.