simple1 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 47 minutes ago, craigt3365 said: The US is just a small player in this war. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Russia are the big players. With Russia being the #1 player. Maybe so currently at the diplomatic level, but the US has been heavily involved with funneling arms into Syria, also bought by the Saudis, Qatar etc from the US for the various fighting groups for a number of years. With the alleged shut down of the CIA liaison organisational structure for arms supply in Syria, will it make any meaningful difference for arms supply to the moderate rebel groups. Operation Timber Sycamore provides a bit more background. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore The entire matter smells of BS baffles brains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kblaze Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) Good in that the US should have never expanded its involvement to such a ridiculous, shades-of-Vietnam/Afghan/etc level. But bad if it was simply due to complaints from Russia. I want the US and Russia to get along, shoot even be friends if such a thing is ever possible. But I'm not naive enough to believe that Russia doesn't see distinct geopolitical advantages in a weakened, more chaotic USA. Edited July 20, 2017 by kblaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KKr Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Baerboxer said: But it's ok for the CIA to interfere in other countries' politics including financing, training and arming insurgents and terrorists? it is the Defenders of the Free World guiding and helping people thinking differently to find and to follow the correct track. what is wrong with that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 35 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said: According to the article it is your conspiracy theory. The decision was made with National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster and CIA Director Mike Pompeo after they consulted with lower ranking officials and before Trump's July 7 meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin at the G-20 summit in Germany. It was not part of U.S.-Russian negotiations on a ceasefire in southwestern Syria, the two officials said. Trump's officials have made many statements. Many have been outright lies. Hard to believe anything from this administration. But yes, it's probably just a conspiracy theory, which I freely admit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 29 minutes ago, Zack61 said: To think that this all started with the illegal invasion of Iraq to serve the interest of a few and still the lessons have not been learnt. I don't like Trump but cannot criticise this decision. Remember Charlie Wilson's war? This has the same overtones. Your saying that Assad attacked and killed his own people because of the Iraq war? I do believe the trigger was the Arab Spring Uprising... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli42 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Baerboxer said: But it's ok for the CIA to interfere in other countries' politics including financing, training and arming insurgents and terrorists? Well that is how the world got ISIS in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 4 hours ago, tonray said: Putin: "Hey Donald, I would not want to "piss" you off but how about some help in Syria ? Trump: "Vladimir, you're a beautiful guy, really beautiful, I think we can do something. Trump adds, "Hey Vlad, say some more nice things about me." Putin: "Mr. Trump, you're handsome, you're smart, you're a very good businessman." Trump: "Thanks. Now I like you even more than I did an hour ago. I'll do anything you want. You say nice things about me, so I'll say nice things about you." (that orange part is an actual earlier quote from Trump) 3 hours ago, GreasyFingers said: According to the article it is your conspiracy theory. The decision was made with National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster and CIA Director Mike Pompeo after they consulted with lower ranking officials and before Trump's July 7 meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin at the G-20 summit in Germany. It was not part of U.S.-Russian negotiations on a ceasefire in southwestern Syria, the two officials said. Where did you get that data from? It could be true. But, Trump's people have such abysmal track record re; telling the truth, that no-one can believe anything he or his people say. I could write a partial list of the hundreds of lies he's thrown out, but it would take a lot of time, and I don't want to get carpal tunnel. Speaking of finding truth: It looks as though Mueller's investigation will rely as much (or more) upon intel from European countries, than from domestic US intel. That's how bad it's gotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 5 hours ago, boomerangutang said: If you look down an alley in a big city, and see four groups of thugs facing each other. Do you quickly buy a suitcase full of knives and arm one of the groups? Which one or two do you choose? Probably best to stay out of it, and let the thugs fight it out. Not a great choice, but probably the best of several other choices. That may have been applicable a while (or quite a while, even) back. To use the same example, the choice was already made and one (for simplicity sake) of the groups got the suitcase of knives. Then there are other "observers" handing similar suitcases to other groups, or even getting into the fray. It's actually more about how to pull out, rather than about getting involved. Or about not getting further entangled. Spilt milk. Regardless of whether this is a good decision, I think that at this stage, it wouldn't do US image much good. It broadcasts the same chaos, confusion and contradictions often commented about with regard to the administration's foreign policy, and specifically as it pertains to regional matters. Wonder how many of those trained, or those currently involved in arms shipments are considering alternative career options at this time. For some this would be a cue switching sides while bearing a grudge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 4 hours ago, craigt3365 said: Interesting. Seems not all US involvement in Syria has been ended. Just the CIA part. Let's not forget Trump bombed Syria only a few months ago. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-ends-covert-cia-program-to-arm-anti-assad-rebels-in-syria-a-move-sought-by-moscow/2017/07/19/b6821a62-6beb-11e7-96ab-5f38140b38cc_story.html?utm_term=.97232e4fcd2a Now the question is when Trump will bail out supporting the Kurds. Probably not before ISIS is declared defeated, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foozool Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 It seems They are going to the same direction now. congratulations, what waste of money to reach this point and now : ok guys lets go back home and leave another lonely Afghanistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilostmypassword Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Remember all the Trump supporters who were calling the US attack on the Syrian airport "decisive"? Where are they now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Happy to see this. It was a stupid move to support these rebels anyway. None of them are to be trusted and as the article said, many had defected to ISIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 5 hours ago, Trouble said: Happy to see this. It was a stupid move to support these rebels anyway. None of them are to be trusted and as the article said, many had defected to ISIS. Unfortunately none of the reporting identifies which groups are to be officially denied support by the CIA. Various moderate rebel groups have been fairly successful with taking on ISIS, some not, though it seems somewhat irrelevant as the US focus now appears to be on Russian objectives in support of Assad forces. The US move can be viewed as cynical, including the strong possibility Kurdish groups will eventually be abandoned in favour of regional balance of power politics. An article from Stars & Stripes you and others may like to read, the last sentence, IMO, being quite sad. https://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/syrian-rebels-feel-betrayed-by-us-decision-to-end-cia-support-1.479034 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 8 hours ago, Trouble said: Happy to see this. It was a stupid move to support these rebels anyway. None of them are to be trusted and as the article said, many had defected to ISIS. The dynamics of the rebels has changed drastically over time. As they were bombed into submission by Russia and forced to work with IS to survive, and became more radical. Now, they are not to be trusted. But given the circumstances, it's understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LannaGuy Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Just now, craigt3365 said: The dynamics of the rebels has changed drastically over time. As they were bombed into submission by Russia and forced to work with IS to survive, and became more radical. Now, they are not to be trusted. But given the circumstances, it's understandable. Most were always ISIS and if they had won Syria would be even more of a bloodbath and burkas everywhere. Thanks to Russia the tide has turned against ISIS in Syria and now Donald has decided to help by not arming them. No doubt he'll take credit for their defeat lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, LannaGuy said: Most were always ISIS and if they had won Syria would be even more of a bloodbath and burkas everywhere. Thanks to Russia the tide has turned against ISIS in Syria and now Donald has decided to help by not arming them. No doubt he'll take credit for their defeat lol You need to research the history of Syrian opposition. Most were never ISIS if you go back to the beginning. The civil war created a power vacuum that allowed ISIS to flourish. And let's not forget how Assad worked with ISIS for a long time. Before and after the civil war. Thanks to Russia, hundreds of thousands of civilians are dead and millions have fled their home country. Let's get our facts straight. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n07/peter-neumann/suspects-into-collaborators Quote In the years that preceded the uprising, Assad and his intelligence services took the view that jihad could be nurtured and manipulated to serve the Syrian government’s aims. It was then that foreign jihadists first entered the country and helped to build the structures and supply lines that are now being used to fight the government. To that extent Assad is fighting an enemy he helped to create. http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-selling-oil-to-biggest-enemy-2015-11 Quote ISIS is selling oil to Syria, the very country the militant group is trying to take over. Apparently, ISIS makes $1.5 million a day by selling oil, making it a strategic priority to take over oil fields and refineries in Syria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_opposition Quote The Syrian opposition evolved since the beginning of the Syrian conflict, from groups calling for regime change in Syria and who have opposed its Ba'athist government.[citation needed] Prior to the Syrian Civil War, the term "opposition" (Arabic "mu'araDah") had been used to refer to traditional political actors, for example the National Coordination Committee for Democratic Change; that is, groups and individuals who have had a history of dissidence against the Syrian state.[citation needed] The first opposition structures to form in the Syrian uprising were local protest-organizing committees. These formed in April 2011, as protesters graduated from spontaneous protests to protests organized by meetings beforehand.[citation needed] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) Is the US keeping a military presence/base in eastern Syria? If I was stationed there, I wouldn't feel safe. Enemies all around. Not a tree (for miles) to hide behind when bullets start flying. What is the base doing? Is it supporting Assad? Is it supporting Rebels? Which ones? Is it just existing for the sake of existing? Maybe some US contractors have the jobs of supplying it with water, gas and tacos, and they don't want their gravy train up-ended. Cheney oversaw a Taco Bell branch which provided Mexican food to US troops over in Dune countries. I heard gasoline winds up costing about $65/gallon for army bases over there. Who says top US officials can't profit from wars overseas? The US spends over $20 billion/year just on air conditioning tents for its troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Correction: Pentagon pays up to $400/gallon for gas in some outlying places, where US troops are stationed. Trump talks about cutting budgets, but he's eager to massively increase the US military budget - which is already mega-bloated. cnbc.com/2014/12/17/you-know-whos-not-getting-cheap-gas-the-us-military.html Edited July 21, 2017 by boomerangutang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johna Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Israel is a major player in this conflict. “Some in Syria joke: 'How can you say that al-Qaida doesn’t have an air force? They have the Israeli air force',” Assad told Foreign Affairs magazine earlier this year. “They are supporting the rebels in Syria. It is very clear.” http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Report-Israel-treating-al-Qaida-fighters-wounded-in-Syria-civil-war-393862 Mr Netanyahu also spoke positively of his relationship with the new US administration of Donald Trump, and admitted that Israeli air strikes inside Syria have targeted Hezbollah arms convoys “dozens of times” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/benjamin-netanyahu-eu-critic-israel-hot-mic-prime-minister-european-union-brexit-a7850576.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 28 minutes ago, boomerangutang said: US keeping a military presence/base in eastern Syria Yes. Other Western troops also in Syria, at a minimum UK and French SF http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-usa-exclusive-idUSKBN1951YX Bit more detail... http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_us_must_avoid_a_war_with_iran_in_eastern_syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LannaGuy Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 1 hour ago, craigt3365 said: You need to research the history of Syrian opposition. Most were never ISIS if you go back to the beginning. The civil war created a power vacuum that allowed ISIS to flourish. And let's not forget how Assad worked with ISIS for a long time. Before and after the civil war. Thanks to Russia, hundreds of thousands of civilians are dead and millions have fled their home country. Let's get our facts straight. Don't believe everything you read as ISIS were there but I agree they grew because it was an 'opportunity' for them to spread their vile message of hate. US did nothing and supplied them and Russia (who you hate) fought them and deserve kudos for doing so. trump has now decided, late in the day, to stop supply ISIS with weapons... now isn't that nice of him? next will be "I defeated ISIS" but, actually, it was Putin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHolmesJr Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Sorry, no links, just common sense. Glad Trump has done this….one way to try and bring this senseless conflict to a close. assad is no angel…but whats next could be faaaaar worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmer Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 An off topic comment has been removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iReason Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 CIA director: Moscow loves to 'stick it to America' "CIA Director Mike Pompeo said Thursday that Russia has no plans to leave Syria and will continue to try to meddle in U.S. affairs to "stick it to America." "Pompeo also said he has seen only minimal evidence that Russia has pursued a serious strategy against Islamic State militants in Syria." "He said any suggestion that Russia has been a U.S. ally in Syria is not borne out by what's happening on the ground." http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/cia-director-moscow-loves-stick-america-48761507 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 58 minutes ago, LannaGuy said: Don't believe everything you read as ISIS were there but I agree they grew because it was an 'opportunity' for them to spread their vile message of hate. US did nothing and supplied them and Russia (who you hate) fought them and deserve kudos for doing so. trump has now decided, late in the day, to stop supply ISIS with weapons... now isn't that nice of him? next will be "I defeated ISIS" but, actually, it was Putin. Agree ISIS was there before. Assad was cultivating them. LOL I don't hate Russia. I love the country. Not the government. I just don't like people defending their actions in Syria. Luckily, most world leaders agree. Sad you don't understand the death and destruction they did in that beautiful country. Nobody else to blame but them...and Assad. And as you know, Russia was not bombing just ISIS. That's well documented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LannaGuy Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, craigt3365 said: Agree ISIS was there before. Assad was cultivating them. LOL I don't hate Russia. I love the country. Not the government. I just don't like people defending their actions in Syria. Luckily, most world leaders agree. Sad you don't understand the death and destruction they did in that beautiful country. Nobody else to blame but them...and Assad. And as you know, Russia was not bombing just ISIS. That's well documented. huh? "most world leaders agree"? only three super powers and last time I looked China supported bombing ISIS maybe you don't? that's strange... How many times have you been to Russia? you blame Assad and Russia for the destruction of beautiful temples and monuments? not ISIS? wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 45 minutes ago, LannaGuy said: huh? "most world leaders agree"? only three super powers and last time I looked China supported bombing ISIS maybe you don't? that's strange... How many times have you been to Russia? you blame Assad and Russia for the destruction of beautiful temples and monuments? not ISIS? wow https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/12/boris-johnson-russia-a-lifeline-for-the-murderous-syrian-regime Quote Boris Johnson: Russia a 'lifeline for the murderous Syrian regime' Foreign secretary redoubles criticism of Vladimir Putin’s support for Bashar al-Assad and continues to push for tougher stance on Moscow http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-germany-idUSKCN0VH14U Quote Merkel criticizes Russia over Syria bombing that forces thousands to flee http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-syria-war-crimes-investigation-france-international-court-of-justice-a7353486.html Quote France to call for Russia to face war crimes investigation over actions in Syria French foreign minister will ask International Court of Justice to intervene following Russian veto of UN draft resolution to reinstate a ceasefire in the Syrian conflict I've only been to Russia one time, but spent a month there. I've been to every former satellite of the USSR except one. I've spent about a year total in these countries. And I love them. Assad is the leader of Syria. He takes the blame. He was the flash point. Just like his father before. I don't consider China to be a world leader. A global super power, yes, but not a leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, LannaGuy said: huh? "most world leaders agree"? only three super powers and last time I looked China supported bombing ISIS maybe you don't? that's strange... How many times have you been to Russia? you blame Assad and Russia for the destruction of beautiful temples and monuments? not ISIS? wow You're twisting Craig's wording. It is unfortunately members silliness continues in the light of the well documented terrible crimes against humanity by the Assad regime. I do wish the Mods put a stop to wilful misinformation by some members. Edited July 21, 2017 by simple1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 22 hours ago, Baerboxer said: But it's ok for the CIA to interfere in other countries' politics including financing, training and arming insurgents and terrorists? Do you have post-cold war examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 22 hours ago, Baerboxer said: Wonder who the CIA are arming, training and financing in Ukraine? The Ukraine government. " President Barack Obama’s administration provided Ukraine with billions of dollars in aid along with non-lethal military equipment, such as night-vision goggles and bomb disposal robots, but stopped short of sending weapons. " https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/nominee-for-pentagon-s-no-2-backs-sending-ukraine-some-weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilostmypassword Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, heybruce said: The Ukraine government. " President Barack Obama’s administration provided Ukraine with billions of dollars in aid along with non-lethal military equipment, such as night-vision goggles and bomb disposal robots, but stopped short of sending weapons. " https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/nominee-for-pentagon-s-no-2-backs-sending-ukraine-some-weapons But according to the link, it doesn't look like this is being done clandestinely. It doesn't seem that it's a CIA project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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