How hard is thai to learn

[seancbk]

On 8/3/2017 at 10:38 AM, Kwasaki said:

Well yeah it is,  l still speak with English London cockney accent was only having a joke but Thai is as most know a tonal language and l'm pretty much tone deaf.

 

I manage speak enough Thai to get what l need, the only time l have any meaningful conversation with a Thai person is in English.

 

I commend anyone who has the ability to learn Thai.  

You are not tone deaf, English is very tonal except we use tones for emphasis and emotion.   

You are just not used to ascribing a tone to a different meaning.

 

[soistalker]

On 8/2/2017 at 8:06 AM, Oxx said:

Not as difficult as Arabic or Mandarin.  Harder than Greek and Russian.

 

About 1400 hours of serious study to become generally proficient in reading and speaking for a typical student.

How do you come up with the 1400 hours estimation, Oxx?

 

On 8/2/2017 at 8:06 AM, Oxx said:

Not as difficult as Arabic or Mandarin.  Harder than Greek and Russian.

 

About 1400 hours of serious study to become generally proficient in reading and speaking for a typical student.

 

[chrissables]

6 minutes ago, ben2talk said:

Of course.

However, when Thai's and I say 'ไหม' it starts of on a LOW note and comes up from the bottom. The second mai ใหม่ is not low. It starts at the same level as mid-tone and falls down a bit. It does not go as low as ไหม and so it is not actually the lowest... The tone marker sets it as a 3-midtone that falls to about 4-low. Without the tone marker it dips to 5 and rises up to about 3.

 

Here again we have ridiculous descriptions that can't serve to teach anyone. This concept is merely an aid that I developed to help myself, so I can state that it works for me. Your description works only to mislead and confuse me so I'm better off without it.

My statement misleads? I am not an expert, just enjoy learning. The question mai ไหม is rising, it is a definite rising tone.

If it does not work for, you that's ok, i am not trying to teach you. But on the basis that all lessons i have seen and dictionaries state it is rising, i will stick with that.

[LawrenceN]

On 8/2/2017 at 11:31 PM, Damrongsak said:

I had the benefit of about 6 weeks of training in the Peace Corps. 25 hours a week, all in Thai.  They used the "silent way" method.  The teacher would say a word, make each student pronounce it correctly, then demonstrate the meaning (silently) until everyone grasped the meaning.  Amazingly effective.  We learned to think in Thai.  A couple people got good at reading and writing in that time.  I only squeaked by.   A couple older volunteers had a hard time because they couldn't hear the tones.

 

It was ten weeks, Richard, from late March to mid-June. Remember? A month in Chainat, another month in Maha Sarakham, and that final week in Hua Hin at the Railway Hotel (now the Sofitel).

[DUS]

20 minutes ago, chrissables said:

My statement misleads? I am not an expert, just enjoy learning. The question mai ไหม is rising, it is a definite rising tone.

If it does not work for, you that's ok, i am not trying to teach you. But on the basis that all lessons i have seen and dictionaries state it is rising, i will stick with that.

 

Well, you are right and wrong..... ;-)

 

Purely based on the spelling of the word ไหม would be pronounced with a rising tone. Mind you, this word is one of the many exceptions where a word is pronounced differently to the rule, i.e. in "everyday Thai" it is pronounced as a high tone. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by DUS

[Minnehaha]

depends a hell of a lot on how old you are, if you have ever learned a second or third or fourth language, and your motivation. 

if you are young (under 25), have some knowledge or fluency in other languages and are motivated then it does not take that long. 

the fastest way to do it is to go where they dont speak english - outside the metropolis, get a job and force yourself to be in Thai speaking situations for daily life. give yourself a break every week or 10 days and get to the city for some R&R and then go back. after a few months, and if you use a simple book, and learn some Thai pop music songs, this is very do-able. music is very helpful because it supports learning tones, intonation, vocab, and popular use of language (a bit at least) 

[Bogbrush]

I agree about the tones (we all know the example "old silk doesn't burn") but I find in general that although you might get the tone of a specific word wrong, if it's in a sentence where the other words are - more or less - correct, you'll be understood, if only by default.

 

What I find annoying is that virtually all the 'assist' apps like Google Translate etc use a female voice; not only difficult (for me at least) to understand but also you need to listen for and remove the 'chan' where and when it appears.

[chrissables]

47 minutes ago, DUS said:

 

Well, you are right and wrong..... ;-)

 

Purely based on the spelling of the word ไหม would be pronounced with a rising tone. Mind you, this word is one of the many exceptions where a word is pronounced differently to the rule, i.e. in "everyday Thai" it is pronounced as a high tone. 

Learning something everyday. :) As far as learning goes (for me) it is better to learn how to read the word and pronounce (if i can) as per the tone rules. 

 

If for example i did pronounce it as a rising tone, would it be understood?  I hope so. But of course i need to understand their pronunciation too. Is that burning? both as high tone would be interesting!

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, dotpoom said:

Not sure such a good idea.

   Some of the things my wife calls me in English is bad enough .....I'd hate to understand the stuff she calls me in Thai (or what the ladies in the street are saying about me as I pass them by). 555

Reminds me.....Love is different when married…

 

Last night I was sitting on the sofa watching TV when I heard my Thai wife's' voice from the kitchen.

" What would you like for dinner,  tee-luk ? Chicken, Beef or Lamb ? "

I said,  " Oh !!  Thank you darling, I'll have the chicken."

She replied  " You're having soup, a--e-hole. I was talking to the cat."

[zyphodb]

I've been here for 6 years with a Thai wife for 5 & I still can't hear the tonal differences, I've picked up a lot of words & can just about get by, but certainly can't have a meaningful conversation, & without knowing which tone with what word I spread lots of confusion among the Thais that I try to talk to, still they mostly appreciate that I am, at least trying, but until I can actually hear the tonal differences nothing will change, I'm not convinced that this is ever going to happen as I'm completely immersed in Thai speaking & have been for several years without any noticeable improvement on my part..... 

[Foozool]

I found Japanese easier. ?

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, ben2talk said:

One of the most elusive lessons that I learned in the first 3 years here was to pin down what the actual tones are.... for example, what is called 'rising' tone is actually the lowest... what is called 'falling' is actually more of a midtone falling, and what is called 'high' is a 'high falling' tone.

One of the first lesson l learnt was the first time l met mum in-law,  my ma in law was laughing with the family l was either calling her a dog or a horse until Mrs told me it is said as "mare" which l thought was funny because l'm still calling a female horse.   

Edited August 4, 2017 by Kwasaki

[Oxx]

1 hour ago, soistalker said:

How do you come up with the 1400 hours estimation, Oxx?

From the American Foreign Service Institute "Language Difficulty Rankings" which are based upon the FSI's very extensive experience of teaching the country's diplomats, spies and espionage agents a very broad range of languages.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

You are not tone deaf, English is very tonal except we use tones for emphasis and emotion.   

Disagree English not considered tonal a English word however spoken means the same,  the same word with different meanings are understood in the sentence not in tones. 

[Oxx]

2 hours ago, chrissables said:

For example the question word mai ไหม is definitely rising and sounds very different to the word new, mai ใหม่ which is a low tone. 

 

Well, apart from the fact that in normal speech it's pronounced high tone.  Only in slow, pedantic speech is it rising tone.

[thecyclist]

It all centers around your knack of differentiating the tones, and getting them right enough for Thais to understand them.The ability to do that varies enormously,some Farangs get the hang of it after just a few months, others never do.It took me a few years living here to aquire the ability to have a basic conversation.Having Thai gf that can't speak English helps greatly.

[seancbk]

49 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

2 hours ago, seancbk said:

You are not tone deaf, English is very tonal except we use tones for emphasis and emotion.   

Disagree English not considered tonal a English word however spoken means the same,  the same word with different meanings are understood in the sentence not in tones. 

 

So if I say "really!" with a surprised tone to my voice you don't think the tone allows the person listening to hear my 'surprise'  versus just saying "really" in a flat disinterested tone which might convey that I don't care what they just said.

We use tones in English all the time to convey extra meaning.   The word we are saying doesn't change but tones convey much more than just the basic word definition.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

21 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

So if I say "really!" with a surprised tone to my voice you don't think the tone allows the person listening to hear my 'surprise'  versus just saying "really" in a flat disinterested tone which might convey that I don't care what they just said.

We use tones in English all the time to convey extra meaning.   The word we are saying doesn't change but tones convey much more than just the basic word definition.

 

 

Understand what you mean but that's expression,  many people speak in different ways but the word still means the same unlike many Thai words,  that's all l'm trying to say in a very calm slow voice. 

[csabo]

Learn to read first (I did not say vocabulary, that comes next). Just learn the alphabet and pronunciation of it. Once you know a foreign alphabet the whole country is your classroom. Everywhere we go I read signs and menus etc to my GF and she corrects me when needed. You can start reading Thai in 15 minutes. http://j3.learnthaionline.com

Then you do a vocabulary builder like its4thai 

Then u learn structure. In 4 months you will be fine in any restaurant or shop and then grow from there. It's not as hard as it looks. The hardest part is tones and the fact they have multiple consonants that make the same sound. These things are related but don't worry about that now. 

[Nurseynutcase]

Very interested to read all the replies.  When I was in the Uk I tried to learn Thai but just got hopelessly confused with the pairing words.  Although the teacher was very good it just did not sink in.

After living here for 5 months I enrolled on a Thai language course, I did say that I was not interested in reading/writing Thai only in speaking it 12000Baht later I know some words and try to string a sentence together - occasionally succeeding.

I do not have any other language apart from English - ok a smattering of French and Arabic but that is it.  At 62 it is much more difficult to learn a new language.

I have taken on board the point of reading/writing Thai so will have another go later in the year.

Thanks everyone for the pointers.

[csabo]

17 minutes ago, Nurseynutcase said:

Very interested to read all the replies.  When I was in the Uk I tried to learn Thai but just got hopelessly confused with the pairing words.  Although the teacher was very good it just did not sink in.

After living here for 5 months I enrolled on a Thai language course, I did say that I was not interested in reading/writing Thai only in speaking it 12000Baht later I know some words and try to string a sentence together - occasionally succeeding.

I do not have any other language apart from English - ok a smattering of French and Arabic but that is it.  At 62 it is much more difficult to learn a new language.

I have taken on board the point of reading/writing Thai so will have another go later in the year.

Thanks everyone for the pointers.

Not to discourage you but UK and Australian accents really destroy Thai pronunciation which is not nearly as forgiving as English. I pronounce words dead on correct and get blank stares because they just can't handle Thai language coming from a farang mouth. Add a strong home accent to that and you can forget it. For example if you pronounce "like" as "loyk" then the Thai word "mai" (which has many meanings depending on tone) will sound like "moy" and they won't have any idea what you are talking about. You could be pointing at barbecue skewers on a grill and say you want 5 "mai" (wood/sticks) and anyone from this planet or any other would know based on your body language alone and adding the number 5 you meant 5 skewers but Thais will just stand there bewildered. Best to learn "this" and "that" first for this reason. But like I said. Reading is good for you in a non communicative sense. You better understand your surroundings and it improves your life if you can read street signs or menus or promotion flyers etc etc etc. One of the first things I learned to read is "buy one get one free" how can that be bad? 

[sawadee1947]

go for a Thai speaking pillow. Within 1 year you will learn important words and phrases. Though I have my doubts you should use them in public....

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Understand what you mean but that's expression,  many people speak in different ways but the word still means the same unlike many Thai words,  that's all l'm trying to say in a very calm slow voice. 

 

The point is we use tones in English to convey extra meaning along with the meaning of the word.

All the people saying "I can't hear tones" must have very poor hearing.

 

   

[Here2008]

Just now, seancbk said:

All the people saying "I can't hear tones" must have very poor hearing.

My hearing is OK.  I can hear the Thai 'tones' but my voice will not reproduce them. (Been trying for over a decade and my wife thinks my  spoken Thai is hilarious!) 

[seancbk]

52 minutes ago, csabo said:

Not to discourage you but UK and Australian accents really destroy Thai pronunciation which is not nearly as forgiving as English. I pronounce words dead on correct and get blank stares because they just can't handle Thai language coming from a farang mouth. Add a strong home accent to that and you can forget it. For example if you pronounce "like" as "loyk" then the Thai word "mai" (which has many meanings depending on tone) will sound like "moy" and they won't have any idea what you are talking about. You could be pointing at barbecue skewers on a grill and say you want 5 "mai" (wood/sticks) and anyone from this planet or any other would know based on your body language alone and adding the number 5 you meant 5 skewers but Thais will just stand there bewildered. Best to learn "this" and "that" first for this reason. But like I said. Reading is good for you in a non communicative sense. You better understand your surroundings and it improves your life if you can read street signs or menus or promotion flyers etc etc etc. One of the first things I learned to read is "buy one get one free" how can that be bad? 

 

If you pronounce 'Like' as "loyk" then you need to try and shed your regional accent first.      I'm English and I wouldn't understand you if you pronounced like that way.

[seancbk]

5 minutes ago, Here2008 said:

8 minutes ago, seancbk said:

All the people saying "I can't hear tones" must have very poor hearing.

My hearing is OK.  I can hear the Thai 'tones' but my voice will not reproduce them. (Been trying for over a decade and my wife thinks my  spoken Thai is hilarious!) 

 

Try saying 'Really" as if you are expressing surprise....  You should automatically give it a rising tone.

Try saying 'Really" if you are excited   You voice should be a higher pitch  - high tone

Try saying it as if the subject matter bores you....  Low tone

Unless of course you go around speaking in a monotone boring voice.

Don't you ever sign along to music?

 

[Here2008]

Just now, seancbk said:

Unless of course you go around speaking in a monotone boring voice

 

Anything but! 

 

I have a normal expressive voice and use 'received pronunciation"

 

There I am told by a Thai university language lecturer that there are those who will never be able to speak Thai. ' 

[minikev]

It's a frustrating language to learn as we are already programed that the same word can be said in many tones and means the same thing whereas in the Thai language using a different tone changes the word.

Start with numbers and the Thai alphabet that way you can begin to understand the very slight differences in the letters and tonal values.

If you have good ears and can hear the tone change it's doable, after all very young Thai children can speak it with a couple of years of listening and practice.

[Here2008]

Just now, minikev said:

it's doable, after all very young Thai children can speak it

 

That is hardly surprising!  Maybe you should learn about how children acquire language -- any language ! 

[minikev]

Just now, Here2008 said:

 

That is hardly surprising!  Maybe you should learn about how children acquire language -- any language ! 

I'm fairly sure children learn by copying and then being corrected when they're wrong. The same way I learned to speak Thai. 

Is there some other secret way that I need to learn about?