Trump, frustrated by Afghan war, suggests firing U.S. commander: officials

[webfact]

Trump, frustrated by Afghan war, suggests firing U.S. commander: officials

By Steve Holland and John Walcott

 

U.S. President Donald Trump speaks after John Kelly was sworn in as White House Chief of Staff in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington, U.S., July 31, 2017. REUTERS/Joshua Roberts

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump's doubts about the war in Afghanistan has led to a delay in completing a new U.S. strategy in South Asia, skepticism that included a suggestion that the U.S. military commander in the region be fired, U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

 

During a July 19 meeting in the White House Situation Room, Trump demanded that his top national security aides provide more information on what one official called "the end-state" in a country where the United States has spent 16 years fighting against the Taliban with no end in sight.

 

The meeting grew stormy when Trump said Defense Secretary James Mattis and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Joseph Dunford, a Marine general, should consider firing Army General John Nicholson, commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan, for not winning the war.

 

"We aren't winning," he told them, according to the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

 

In addition, once the meeting concluded, Trump's chief strategist, Steve Bannon, got into what one official called "a shouting match" with White House national security adviser H.R. McMaster over the direction of U.S. policy.

 

Some officials left the meeting “stunned” by the president’s vehement complaints that the military was allowing the United States to lose the war

 

Mattis, McMaster and other top aides are putting together answers to Trump's questions in a way to try to get him to approve the strategy, the officials said.

 

The White House had no comment on the accounts of the meeting.

 

Another meeting of top aides is scheduled on Thursday.

 

Although Trump earlier this year gave Mattis the authority to deploy U.S. military forces as he sees fit, in fact the defense secretary's plans to add around 4,000 more U.S. troops to the 8,400 currently deployed in Afghanistan are being caught up in the delay surrounding the strategy, the officials said.

 

"It's been contingent all along informally on the strategy being approved," a senior administration official said of the troop deployment.

 

Trump has long been a skeptic of lingering U.S. involvement in foreign wars and has expressed little interest in deploying military forces without a specific plan on what they will do and for how long.

 

Officials said Trump argued that the United States should demand a share of Afghanistan’s estimated $1 trillion in mineral wealth in exchange for its assistance to the Afghan government.

 

But other officials noted that without securing the entire country, which could take many years, there is no way to get the country’s mineral riches to market, except to Iran. Trump complained that the Chinese are profiting from their mining operations, the officials said.

 

(Editing by Jonathan Oatis)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-08-03

[simon43]

Some officials left the meeting “stunned” by the president’s vehement complaints that the military was allowing the United States to lose the war

 

Well, he's got a point there.....

[boomerangutang]

A man with zero experience in DC politics, pretending to deal with politicians in DC

A man with zero knowledge or experience with health care - trying to set a direction for health care

A man who dodged the draft 5 times, telling everyone he knows more than the generals and military strategies.

A man who is on his 3rd marriage and openly messed around during all three, preaches morality.

 

The best I can say about The Dufus in Chief is that he's a walking talking contradiction, and continues to be the most harmful influence for the USA.

 

[boomerangutang]

I half expect Trump to write another book, called 'How to Instill Confidence'

 

Subtitle:  threaten, daily, to fire people for incompetence.

 

Note, I just read an article in a Military History magazine. It relates to Trump's ineptitude and his deep problems with the CIA and Pentagon.

 

The article talked about the 19-teens leading up to WWI.  Summary:  The French had a double agent who claimed the Germans were planning to attack France by doing an end-run through neutral Belgium.  Initially, the French intel services believed the report, and acted accordingly, by beefing up their defenses at the Belgium border.  A few months later another faction of French generals, led by Joffre, decided the intel was bunk, and instead beefed up defenses at Alsace-Lorraine - leaving the Belgian border unprotected.  Lo and behold, the Germans came charging through Belgium, and France nearly became a province of Germany. 

 

With a dangerous dunce like Trump as Commander in Chief, such things are likely to happen.  Wrong headed leadership decisions which can lead to war and other massive problems are inevitable with Trump at the helm.

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

37 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Well, he's got a point there.....

Not much of one, though. Unless he's prepared to spend hundreds of billions of dollars. And even then...

[canopus1969]

US military are dragging this out on purpose - remember War is good business  and makes many Americans rich.  Dump is quite right to kick the top brass, 16 years and nothing to show for it, pathetic

 

Either win it or get out

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, canopus1969 said:

US military are dragging this out on purpose - remember War is good business  and makes many Americans rich.  Dump is quite right to kick the top brass, 16 years and nothing to show for it, pathetic

 

Either win it or get out

So, what's your strategy for winning?  And if you have one, do you have a cost estimate for it?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Too bad this reported episode in mid-July came before Trump kicked out Reince and replaced him with the retired Marine Corps general as his new Chief of Staff -- someone who presumably would have been in that kind of meeting.

 

Wonder what John Kelly would have said, or will say now, when Trump starts talking about "firing" -- which really means only re-assigning -- senior military commanders.

 

That said, in his own blustery way, Trump did seem to raise a legitimate point -- What is the U.S. strategy for "winning" or any kind of ultimate success in Afghanistan? I'm an American citizen, and 16 years later, I certainly don't know what the strategy is.

 

I mean, the goal is known -- to establish the Afghan government and military as a reasonably self-sufficient government capable of governing the country and preventing it from once again becoming a base for international terrorism. But what's more than a bit fuzzy, is just how the U.S. is ever going to accomplish that, how long it's likely to take, and how much progress has really been made toward that goal thru the years.

 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Too bad this reported episode in mid-July came before Trump kicked out Reince and replaced him with the retired Marine Corps general as his new Chief of Staff -- someone who presumably would have been in that kind of meeting.

 

Wonder what John Kelly would have said, or will say now, when Trump starts talking about "firing" -- which really means only re-assigning -- senior military commanders.

 

That said, in his own blustery way, Trump did seem to raise a legitimate point -- What is the U.S. strategy for "winning" or any kind of ultimate success in Afghanistan? I'm an American citizen, and 16 years later, I certainly don't know what the strategy is.

 

I mean, the goal is known -- to establish the Afghan government and military as a reasonably self-sufficient government capable of governing the country and preventing it from once again becoming a base for international terrorism. But what's more than a bit fuzzy, is just how the U.S. is ever going to accomplish that, how long it's likely to take, and how much progress has really been made toward that goal thru the years.

 

The architecture was agreed at the Tokyo Conference in 2012 for goals to be achieved by 2024 in Afghanistan. Perhaps Trump should familiarise himself with the document, before launching into a tirade, to ascertain what needs to be re-tuned, re-vitalised political engagement with regional power players, the emergence of ISIS in Afghanistan etc etc

 

http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/middle_e/afghanistan/tokyo_conference_2012/tokyo_declaration_en1.html

Lastly, Trump  sees himself as the best of the best, so rather than complaining, has Trump made any constructive contributions to strategic / tactical matters with reference to Afghanistan.

Edited August 3, 2017 by simple1

[canopus1969]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

So, what's your strategy for winning?  And if you have one, do you have a cost estimate for it?

Simple - be sensible and get out, the US will never win - fact

[mamypoko]

News flash: Trump frustrated

In this, I and the President feel the same

[tonray]

I think Trump is right in questioning what we are doing. Where he was wrong was in promising surefire plans to 'win' while he was campaigning. And he is very wrong at pitting his officers against each other, one of his favorite tactics. If he wants a new commander in Afghanistan, then order it, don't play games.

[Can samui]

News flash troops.......
Nobody will ever "win" in Afghanistan.
I speak from experience after spending the better part of seven years there in both Kabul and Kandahar.
It is an ancient tribal society that will never embrace democracy in any form. The national passtime of Afghans is fighting. They only come together when a foreign power invades and after they leave the Afghans go back to fighting each other.
The arrogance of that fat windbag Trump to assume he, in his infinite wisdom, can force another commander to win is amazing.
Afghanistan is a swamp which is tremendously difficult to extricate ones self from. I do not claim to know how, I only know that it can never be won.
I weep for the people who have lost their lives in the conflict. I knew a great many truly good Afghans and participated in way too many ramp ceremonies sending fallen troops home.
Just wish I knew the answer.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[ardsong]

imho , the states are bad losers, Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Chile, Iran, Libye, Syria, Afghanistan, with a cheating idiot in the lead who shouts only empty words and false promises.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, Can samui said:

News flash troops.......
Nobody will ever "win" in Afghanistan.
I speak from experience after spending the better part of seven years there in both Kabul and Kandahar.
It is an ancient tribal society that will never embrace democracy in any form. The national passtime of Afghans is fighting. They only come together when a foreign power invades and after they leave the Afghans go back to fighting each other.
The arrogance of that fat windbag Trump to assume he, in his infinite wisdom, can force another commander to win is amazing.
Afghanistan is a swamp which is tremendously difficult to extricate ones self from. I do not claim to know how, I only know that it can never be won.

 

That's the reality I've always been afraid of being the case. But what's the alternative/end result if the U.S. and coalition participants walk away?  Nothing there presents itself as a very appealing option for the future.

 

[YetAnother]

1 hour ago, canopus1969 said:

Simple - be sensible and get out, the US will never win - fact

Agree; just ask the Russians

Edited August 3, 2017 by YetAnother

[Baerboxer]

23 minutes ago, Can samui said:

News flash troops.......
Nobody will ever "win" in Afghanistan.
I speak from experience after spending the better part of seven years there in both Kabul and Kandahar.
It is an ancient tribal society that will never embrace democracy in any form. The national passtime of Afghans is fighting. They only come together when a foreign power invades and after they leave the Afghans go back to fighting each other.
The arrogance of that fat windbag Trump to assume he, in his infinite wisdom, can force another commander to win is amazing.
Afghanistan is a swamp which is tremendously difficult to extricate ones self from. I do not claim to know how, I only know that it can never be won.
I weep for the people who have lost their lives in the conflict. I knew a great many truly good Afghans and participated in way too many ramp ceremonies sending fallen troops home.
Just wish I knew the answer.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

Britain couldn't in the 19th century. Russia couldn't in the 20th century (even with a communist government in Afghanistan) and now the US won't in the 21st century.

 

There is no apparent answer other than perhaps to just leave them alone.

[rocketman777]

The war is 'Unwinnable', its ironic that the US has fallen into the trap that Brzezinski set for the USSR.

The British Empire also learn' t this the hard way back in the 19th century.

It is apparent that the US has also failed to learn from their Vietnam experience.

A conventional army fighting a Guerilla war is almost certainly doomed to failure, as the

'Guerilla's' do not have to win they just must avoid loosing until the occupation forces no longer have the will to continue.

 

The Romans, however, knew how to overcome Guerilla tactics with totally overwhelming and brutal force.

 

" Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat "

 

But as a post intimated above a never ending war against 'the terrorist' is good for business.

[dunroaming]

3 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

So, what's your strategy for winning?  And if you have one, do you have a cost estimate for it?

Actually the US don't have a good record when it comes to wars.  They certainly have the fire power and a lot of brave men, women and LGBTs who will lay down their lives for their country.  Unfortunately that isn't enough when fighting an enemy within.

[car720]

2 hours ago, Can samui said:

News flash troops.......
Nobody will ever "win" in Afghanistan.
I speak from experience after spending the better part of seven years there in both Kabul and Kandahar.
It is an ancient tribal society that will never embrace democracy in any form. The national passtime of Afghans is fighting. They only come together when a foreign power invades and after they leave the Afghans go back to fighting each other.
The arrogance of that fat windbag Trump to assume he, in his infinite wisdom, can force another commander to win is amazing.
Afghanistan is a swamp which is tremendously difficult to extricate ones self from. I do not claim to know how, I only know that it can never be won.
I weep for the people who have lost their lives in the conflict. I knew a great many truly good Afghans and participated in way too many ramp ceremonies sending fallen troops home.
Just wish I knew the answer.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Agreed.  I usually never subscribe to hollywood but I do believe that many could benefit by rewatching Lawrence of Arabia.  They have been at each others throats since time began and they will still be when time ends.

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ron19
Off topic comment has been removed

[HappyinNE]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's the reality I've always been afraid of being the case. But what's the alternative/end result if the U.S. and coalition participants walk away?  Nothing there presents itself as a very appealing option for the future.

 

The appealing option is that the US and coalition participants will quit losing troops and too damn much money.  Time to quit.  Nope it is past time.

[Silurian]

2 hours ago, Can samui said:

Nobody will ever "win" in Afghanistan.
I speak from experience after spending the better part of seven years there in both Kabul and Kandahar.
It is an ancient tribal society that will never embrace democracy in any form.

 

You hit the nail on the head with this statement. Afghanistan is a tribal society made up of many different tribes that only loosely come together to form any sort of country. The mistake Britain, Russia and the USA make is thinking that taking the cities is a major accomplishment. The major cities have all been taken at one point in time or another and it doesn't make that much difference. The Afghans are a bunch of tribes spread across the country. They know when to leave a city that is falling and regroup elsewhere. The cities are just shiny distractions. You will never root them out of the countryside.

 

The USA should just drop it in the lap of the Chinese as the Chinese are there anyway taking natural resources. Let the Chinese play with the Afghans for awhile.

 

[Can samui]

Close Silurian but I think the Afghans will play with the Chinese if ya know what I mean...


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[tonray]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's the reality I've always been afraid of being the case. But what's the alternative/end result if the U.S. and coalition participants walk away?  Nothing there presents itself as a very appealing option for the future.

 

Perhaps we need to learn that it's not smart to get involved in the future based upon our history. How many more fiascos can we afford ?

[JulesMad]

Why does "The Greatest" himself not go to Afghanistan??? Piece of cake for the 'fearless' leader.... Just lie a bit and bully the Taliban away

The Taliban will shit their pants (of laughter!) when the hypocrite coward would come. I know, it will never happen.... trumpy probably does not have a clue when Afghanistan is

 

[Thaidream]

Trump needs to let America's Generals handle military matters. The military knows there is no real way to 'win'. They are trying to root out potential terrorist cells that could threaten strikes on the US or its allies.  I would expect the US to maintain a residual force for decades or until  America gets a real President who understands history and works with the Defense department to develop a regional approach. This is the same Trump who claims he knows more than the Generals- Oh that's right he went to a military style high school. Well, that certainly makes him qualified.

[bunuel]

5 hours ago, Can samui said:

News flash troops.......
Nobody will ever "win" in Afghanistan.
I speak from experience after spending the better part of seven years there in both Kabul and Kandahar.
It is an ancient tribal society that will never embrace democracy in any form. The national passtime of Afghans is fighting. They only come together when a foreign power invades and after they leave the Afghans go back to fighting each other.
The arrogance of that fat windbag Trump to assume he, in his infinite wisdom, can force another commander to win is amazing.
Afghanistan is a swamp which is tremendously difficult to extricate ones self from. I do not claim to know how, I only know that it can never be won.
I weep for the people who have lost their lives in the conflict. I knew a great many truly good Afghans and participated in way too many ramp ceremonies sending fallen troops home.
Just wish I knew the answer.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Have many friends who have served in Afghanistan over the past 16 years, and they all agree with this post, Due to the nature of Afghanistan culture itself,  " victory" in a Western sense is not possible. Indeed, any study of British military disasters in that country in the 19th century would only add additional confirmation. Kipling did not call Afghanistan " the grave yard of kings"  for nothing - the tragedy is that American military planners and politicians seem to have learned nothing from the past, and seem condemned to repeat mistakes again and again. 

 

For anyone interested in the 19th century GREAT GAME, Peter Hopkirk's book offers an excellent introduction:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game_(Peter_Hopkirk_book)

[boomerangutang]

9 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Not much of one, though. Unless he's prepared to spend hundreds of billions of dollars. And even then...

 

 

9 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

So, what's your strategy for winning?  And if you have one, do you have a cost estimate for it?

                            You were asking someone else, but I'll pipe in.  Back when most, if not all, Taliban including O.B.Laden were literally holed up in an Afghan mnt range, ....US military forces weren't minding the back door.  In effect, they allowed the bad guys to just walk down the rocky hills (probably at night during a new moon) - into Pakistan and blend in with the baddies on the border. 

 

                        I would have recommended; A. surround the enemy as best as possible,  B. drop leaflets on those hillsides saying something like, "surrender by 12 noon tomorrow, or you'll be killed."  and C.  starting at 12:01 the next day, bomb the living crap out of them, using MOAB-like concussion bombs.   D. send in troops to mop up.

 

                                     Cost estimate:  a small fraction of what was spent in the past 16 years.  Note:  Afghanis, like most people, respond to offers of money - much better than promises of democracy or training police. They're too embedded in their superstitions and village-headman-worship to care much about a vague concept like 'democracy.'

[Andaman Al]

3 hours ago, JulesMad said:

Why does "The Greatest" himself not go to Afghanistan???

He has bone spurs don't ya know.  

[Andaman Al]

The way to avoid defeat in Afghanistan is very simple. Do not go there. Even Alexander the Great said 'Frakk that for a game of soldiers' and left the place alone. Afghanistan has never been conquered by a foreign power in 2500 years. We all said the Russians were mad to invade and then taking those very pertinent lessons we decided to invade ourselves. The result being many of our sons and daughters dead and really nothing gained at all. As soon as we pull out it will be back to square 1.

 

39 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

Cost estimate:  a small fraction of what was spent in the past 16 years.  Note:  Afghanis, like most people, respond to offers of money - much better than promises of democracy or training police.

When I was there we even said that the US and UK Government should just buy all the Afghan poppy harvests direct from the farmers, using which we could have supplied all the worlds requirements for medical grade opiates and morphine etc. It would have been a much easier way of ensuring peace than having soldiers being used as target practice each day.

 

Regarding Trump, he does not have a military bone in his body (he has anti-military ones like bone spurs though), and he thinks it is like playing a game of Risk. He does NOT know more than the Generals and Afghanistan is a war that can NEVER be won. The fact that McMasters would argue with someone like Bannon is mind blowing, anyone with any integrity left should walk out of the White House for good. The whole administration is pathetic.