Brexit negotiations have not begun well for UK, says former top diplomat

[snoop1130]

Brexit negotiations have not begun well for UK, says former top diplomat

 

Britain's Prime Minister Theresa May leaves Downing Street in London, Britain July 19, 2017. REUTERS/Neil Hall/Files

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain's negotiations over leaving the European Union have not begun well due to disagreements among Prime Minister Theresa May's team of ministers about the kind of deal they should be seeking, a former top British diplomat said.

 

Simon Fraser, until 2015 the most senior civil servant at Britain's Foreign Office and the head of the UK Diplomatic Service, said the government needed to put forward a clearer position.

 

Since May lost her parliamentary majority in a failed election gamble in June, infighting between members of her cabinet has broken into the open, with disagreements on issues including whether freedom of movement of EU nationals should continue after Britain leaves the bloc in 2019.

 

"The negotiations have only just begun, I don't think they have begun particularly promisingly, frankly, on the British side," said Fraser, who also formerly served as chief of staff to the European Trade Commissioner in Brussels.

 

"We haven't put forward a lot because, as we know, there are differences within the cabinet about the sort of Brexit that we are heading for and until those differences are further resolved I think it's very difficult for us to have a clear position," he told BBC Radio.

 

May's spokesman said the government would "disagree strongly" with Fraser's comments.

 

"The last two months we've had a constructive start to the negotiations, we've covered a significant amount of important ground," he told reporters.

 

In the first full round of Brexit talks last month there was little compromise between British and EU chief negotiators on key disputes including how to protect the rights of expatriate citizens and on settling London's EU "divorce bill".

 

"So far we haven't put much on the table apart from something on the status of nationals, so we are a bit absent from the formal negotiation," said Fraser, who now advises businesses on Brexit.

 

"We need to demonstrate that we are ready to engage on the substance so that people can understand what is really at stake here and what the options are, so let's move forward with that."

 

Media reports say the government is due to publish a series of "position papers" later this week, including its proposals on future customs arrangements with the EU and how to deal with the Northern Irish border.

 

(Reporting by Kylie MacLellan, additional reporting by William James; editing by Michael Holden)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-8-7

[Jonnapat]

Negotiations have not begun well because there is a government that hasn't clue what it wants. I've said it before,  clueless before Brexit and equally clueless now.

Future generations will have to pay for this folly.

[Jip99]

7 minutes ago, Jonnapat said:

Negotiations have not begun well because there is a government that hasn't clue what it wants. I've said it before,  clueless before Brexit and equally clueless now.

Future generations will have to pay for this folly.

 

 

Which part was "folly"?...... surely not the democratic outcome of the vote.

[Khun Han]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830

 

"Speaking to BBC Radio 4's Westminster Hour, Sir Simon, who campaigned for Remain ahead of last year's referendum"

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Jonnapat said:

Negotiations have not begun well because there is a government that hasn't clue what it wants. I've said it before,  clueless before Brexit and equally clueless now.

Future generations will have to pay for this folly.

Keep on saying it and people may begin to believe it.

But at the end of the day it is only your opinion.

 

My opinion is the opposite of yours, which is worth the same as my opinon.

 

Nothing.

[rufanuf]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Keep on saying it and people may begin to believe it.

But at the end of the day it is only your opinion.

 

My opinion is the opposite of yours, which is worth the same as my opinon.

 

Nothing.

This generation already paid for the Folly of joining the corrupt club in the first place. People cannot see the simple fact that BREXIT is a symptom OF the EU. Not visa versa.

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, Jonnapat said:

Negotiations have not begun well because there is a government that hasn't clue what it wants. I've said it before,  clueless before Brexit and equally clueless now.

Future generations will have to pay for this folly.

 

Too many want different things withing the government - cabinet, parliamentary MP's and the Tory party.

 

How can you negotiate, or even form a plan, when you don't know what you want, don't have agreed visions and objectives, yourself?

 

Total disaster looming and all their worried about is moving the deck chairs on the deck to get a better position for themselves!

[Becker]

3 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Which part was "folly"?...... surely not the democratic outcome of the vote.

Surely you're not saying that an outcome cannot be a folly just because it was the result of a democratic process??

You do know that Trump was elected POTUS, right?

[Jip99]

5 minutes ago, Becker said:

Surely you're not saying that an outcome cannot be a folly just because it was the result of a democratic process??

You do know that Trump was elected POTUS, right?

 

...and Thaksin in Thailand.

 

Folly is an opinion, election results are fact.

[Becker]

8 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

...and Thaksin in Thailand.

 

Folly is an opinion, election results are fact.

So why were you questioning Jonnapat's opinion that the result of the referendum was a folly?

 

[Khun Han]

41 minutes ago, Becker said:

So why were you questioning Jonnapat's opinion that the result of the referendum was a folly?

 

 

I expect it's because Jip99 knows the result of the referendum wasn't a folly: it was the realisation by the majority of people who cared enough to vote that a mistake of biblical proportions needs to be corrected.

[dunroaming]

4 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Which part was "folly"?...... surely not the democratic outcome of the vote.

The "folly" was several fold.  Firstly nobody realised just how complicated it would be to leave the EU.  Nobody had bothered to analyse properly what would happen if the vote was to leave as nobody thought for a moment that that was what people would vote for.  So the whole campaign by both sides was based on spin and bullsh*t.  They just made up "facts" as they went along and the people lapped it up.  Johnson, Gove and Co were playing political games to oust Cameron and the referendum was a good way to do it.  It was easier for them because their bull was based on what they said could be achieved if we left the EU.  Empty promises indeed.

 

Now the reality kicks in and after May stupidly said the ridiculous statement that "Brexit means Brexit" when she and everyone else had no idea what Brexit meant at all.  What should now be a straightforward negotiated divorce (that is if you believed the Brexit rhetoric) is turning into a complete farce with all those politicians in charge scrabbling around trying save their own bacon.  Of course the main campaigner for Brexit is keeping his head down and hiding away.  Never has the British government looked so stupid! 

Edited August 8, 2017 by dunroaming

[Jonmarleesco]

5 hours ago, dunroaming said:

The "folly" was several fold.  Firstly nobody realised just how complicated it would be to leave the EU.  Nobody had bothered to analyse properly what would happen if the vote was to leave as nobody thought for a moment that that was what people would vote for.  So the whole campaign by both sides was based on spin and bullsh*t.  They just made up "facts" as they went along and the people lapped it up.  Johnson, Gove and Co were playing political games to oust Cameron and the referendum was a good way to do it.  It was easier for them because their bull was based on what they said could be achieved if we left the EU.  Empty promises indeed.

 

Now the reality kicks in and after May stupidly said the ridiculous statement that "Brexit means Brexit" when she and everyone else had no idea what Brexit meant at all.  What should now be a straightforward negotiated divorce (that is if you believed the Brexit rhetoric) is turning into a complete farce with all those politicians in charge scrabbling around trying save their own bacon.  Of course the main campaigner for Brexit is keeping his head down and hiding away.  Never has the British government looked so stupid! 

So the people who voted out were fools? Must have been the same ones who weren't permitted a vote to go in. Into the EEC, that is; not the EC, not the EU.

[dunroaming]

18 minutes ago, Jonmarleesco said:

So the people who voted out were fools? Must have been the same ones who weren't permitted a vote to go in. Into the EEC, that is; not the EC, not the EU.

We were all fools to believe the rhetoric from both sides.  If there was proper analysis of the consequences and that was presented honestly and then the vote was to leave then fair enough, it would have been the right choice.  But it wasn't the facts or even the truth we were told and the result was based on lies.  Maybe you feel that was fair enough, but I don't.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

This guy is a genuine Sir Humphrey Appleby. He retired in 2015 but his chums from Oxford or Cambridge that he meets in the Gentleman's Club have kept him in the loop? Seems to me he is pissed he didn't get a Knighthood. He also seems to have got himself a nice little part time job out of it though...

 

When do negotiations start well and continue to a quick conclusion with the EU? Never, they are famous for it. A load of Eurocrats with a big chip on their shoulder wondering where the money is going to come from after the UK leaves, and trying for a huge and unjustified last payment. Also they are desperately trying to hang on to power over the UK with the ECJ threat over EU citizens in the UK.

That was the first month.

 

UK government is not being tough enough yet, but will have to start doing more than probing in the dark soon .

Turn the interrogation light in Barnier's face and summon up the blood...

But there is a long way to go yet.

If the Remoaners stopped trying to sabotage a democratic process, the UK has a very good hand of cards to play in this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[dunroaming]

10 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

UK government is not being tough enough yet, but will have to start doing more than probing in the dark. Turn the interrogation light on and summon up the blood, but there is a long way to go yet.

Unfortunately they are all lacking in the blood department as well as having any idea of how to proceed.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

56 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

We were all fools to believe the rhetoric from both sides.  If there was proper analysis of the consequences and that was presented honestly and then the vote was to leave then fair enough, it would have been the right choice.  But it wasn't the facts or even the truth we were told and the result was based on lies.  Maybe you feel that was fair enough, but I don't.

I don't think any amount of analysis could have given an accurate forecast of what would happen. There were though some huge lies on both sides, and some were fabricated by the press too.

 

Impressionable kids that know nothing of the history of Europe, or the sneaking change from the Common Market to the undemocratic empire building bureaucrats of the EU might have voted to stay in.

However. adults that have seen their neighborhoods taken over by Eastern Europeans and fishermen that have seen their businesses ruined and those who have some common sense left and have not succumbed to liberalism voted for the future, not their own interests.

 

But it was only a majority of a huge turnout that did that in June 2016...

So who cares about that?

 

[billd766]

13 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

This guy is a genuine Sir Humphrey Appleby. He retired in 2015 but his chums from Oxford or Cambridge that he meets in the Gentleman's Club have kept him in the loop? Seems to me he is pissed he didn't get a Knighthood. He also seems to have got himself a nice little part time job out of it though...

 

When do negotiations start well and continue to a quick conclusion with the EU? Never, they are famous for it. A load of Eurocrats with a big chip on their shoulder wondering where the money is going to come from after the UK leaves, and trying for a huge and unjustified last payment. Also they are desperately trying to hang on to power over the UK with the ECJ threat over EU citizens in the UK.

That was the first month.

 

UK government is not being tough enough yet, but will have to start doing more than probing in the dark soon .

Turn the interrogation light in Barnier's face and summon up the blood...

But there is a long way to go yet.

If the Remoaners stopped trying to sabotage a democratic process, the UK has a very good hand of cards to play in this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not that in any way would he biased against Brexit but.....

 

"The negotiations have only just begun, I don't think they have begun particularly promisingly, frankly, on the British side," said Fraser, who also formerly served as chief of staff to the European Trade Commissioner in Brussels.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

13 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I don't think any amount of analysis could have given an accurate forecast of what would happen. There were though some huge lies on both sides, and some were fabricated by the press too.

 

Impressionable kids that know nothing of the history of Europe, or the sneaking change from the Common Market to the undemocratic empire building bureaucrats of the EU might have voted to stay in.

However. adults that have seen their neighborhoods taken over by Eastern Europeans and fishermen that have seen their businesses ruined and those who have some common sense left and have not succumbed to liberalism voted for the future, not their own interests.

 

But it was only a majority of a huge turnout that did that in June 2016...

So who cares about that?

 

"I don't think any amount of analysis could have given an accurate forecast of what would happen. There were though some huge lies on both sides, and some were fabricated by the press too."

 

Couldn't agree more.  More than a year later its still all 'opinion'.  i.e. - Guessing from a biased viewpoint - and this will continue to be the case for at least a couple of years....

Edited August 9, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Retiredandhappyhere]

22 hours ago, dunroaming said:

The "folly" was several fold.  Firstly nobody realised just how complicated it would be to leave the EU.  Nobody had bothered to analyse properly what would happen if the vote was to leave as nobody thought for a moment that that was what people would vote for.  So the whole campaign by both sides was based on spin and bullsh*t.  They just made up "facts" as they went along and the people lapped it up.  Johnson, Gove and Co were playing political games to oust Cameron and the referendum was a good way to do it.  It was easier for them because their bull was based on what they said could be achieved if we left the EU.  Empty promises indeed.

 

Now the reality kicks in and after May stupidly said the ridiculous statement that "Brexit means Brexit" when she and everyone else had no idea what Brexit meant at all.  What should now be a straightforward negotiated divorce (that is if you believed the Brexit rhetoric) is turning into a complete farce with all those politicians in charge scrabbling around trying save their own bacon.  Of course the main campaigner for Brexit is keeping his head down and hiding away.  Never has the British government looked so stupid! 

I suggest we all await the outcome of the negotiations before deciding whether the decision to leave the EU was "folly".  Because the UK Government quite sensibly has not put all its cards on the table at the outset, people, with no detailed information at their disposal,  are jumping to the conclusion that it has no plan.  Some elements of their plan are to be published this week, I understand.

 

The same people who rubbished the Government for being a bad member of the EU  for opting out of the Euro and many of the unacceptable EU proposals by careful and awkward negotiations, are now claiming that the UK are poor negotiators.  The British are renowned for their negotiating and diplomatic skills and these will be proved to be valuable assets in arriving at a reasonable exit from the EU, which will prove all the doom and gloom merchants completely wrong.  A reasonable settlement is in the interests of both the UK AND the EU and all the negative comments from the UK and the EU while negotiations are in progress are not helping to achieve that objective.  

 

No-one is claiming that there will not be an initial negative economic impact on the UK and the EU economies following Brexit, but time will tell which party comes out best and indeed survives in the long run. The remaining 27 members of the EU are by no means all speaking with one voice and were a referendum on continued membership to be held in one or two countries, particularly with the leaders' move towards a "United States of Europe" in the pipeline the outcome is not as certain as some would like.

 

Finally, Brexit was NOT only about money, important though that is.

[dick dasterdly]

31 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

I suggest we all await the outcome of the negotiations before deciding whether the decision to leave the EU was "folly".  Because the UK Government quite sensibly has not put all its cards on the table at the outset, people, with no detailed information at their disposal,  are jumping to the conclusion that it has no plan.  Some elements of their plan are to be published this week, I understand.

 

The same people who rubbished the Government for being a bad member of the EU  for opting out of the Euro and many of the unacceptable EU proposals by careful and awkward negotiations, are now claiming that the UK are poor negotiators.  The British are renowned for their negotiating and diplomatic skills and these will be proved to be valuable assets in arriving at a reasonable exit from the EU, which will prove all the doom and gloom merchants completely wrong.  A reasonable settlement is in the interests of both the UK AND the EU and all the negative comments from the UK and the EU while negotiations are in progress are not helping to achieve that objective.  

 

No-one is claiming that there will not be an initial negative economic impact on the UK and the EU economies following Brexit, but time will tell which party comes out best and indeed survives in the long run. The remaining 27 members of the EU are by no means all speaking with one voice and were a referendum on continued membership to be held in one or two countries, particularly with the leaders' move towards a "United States of Europe" in the pipeline the outcome is not as certain as some would like.

 

Finally, Brexit was NOT only about money, important though that is.

Many good points - and I'd only consider changing " we all await the outcome of the negotiations"  to:-

 

'we all await the voters' response to the outcome of the negotiations'. 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 09/08/2017 at 0:39 PM, billd766 said:

 

Not that in any way would he biased against Brexit but.....

 

"The negotiations have only just begun, I don't think they have begun particularly promisingly, frankly, on the British side," said Fraser, who also formerly served as chief of staff to the European Trade Commissioner in Brussels.

 

 

Yep, and he gets the pension that goes with it!

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 09/08/2017 at 3:48 PM, dick dasterdly said:

Many good points - and I'd only consider changing " we all await the outcome of the negotiations"  to:-

 

'we all await the voters' response to the outcome of the negotiations'. 

Err... No second referendum was the cry by both sides before June 23rd.

Only the sad Lib Dems want to run it again.

The final deal will go before parliament.

Thank Gina Miller for that. And now she says she will push to see Brexit is delivered.

She is a millionaire and a barrack room lawyer. It seems she believes in democracy as long as it goes the way she wants...

She was lucky to be born a couple of months before Guyana became independent when her dad became Attorney General, and has since married three rich Brits.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[billd766]

On 08/08/2017 at 1:38 PM, rufanuf said:

This generation already paid for the Folly of joining the corrupt club in the first place. People cannot see the simple fact that BREXIT is a symptom OF the EU. Not visa versa.

 

Which generation would that be then?

 

I am 73 and my generation are war babies and just after.

 

Then there are the baby boomer generation of the 1960s and 70s (my UK son was born in 1978) followed of course by the current or millenium generation of MeMes.

 

The generation before mine are in their 80s and 90s and quite a few still have their wits about them.

 

A choice of 4. Pick one.

[pegman]

Past time to put a stop to this nonsense.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/839690/brexit-leave-eu-european-union-brussels-stopped-remain-lord-heseltine

[dick dasterdly]

10 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Err... No second referendum was the cry by both sides before June 23rd.

Only the sad Lib Dems want to run it again.

The final deal will go before parliament.

Thank Gina Miller for that. And now she says she will push to see Brexit is delivered.

She is a millionaire and a barrack room lawyer. It seems she believes in democracy as long as it goes the way she wants...

She was lucky to be born a couple of months before Guyana became independent when her dad became Attorney General, and has since married three rich Brits.

 

 

 

 

I'm a cynic, and fully expect the final agreement to be a more expensive version of remaining within the EU......

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

10 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm a cynic, and fully expect the final agreement to be a more expensive version of remaining within the EU......

If I could find one I'd send you a Muttley laugh...

That's what the Frogs and Krauts want.

No, we know they want our money and would like to control the UK via the ECJ, but I don't believe that can happen. The Lib Dems only have eight seats at Westminster for a reason,

WTO rules, or back in Efta if we have to. Pay them up to 2020 when the current budget we agreed to ends, plus our contribution to pension funds. Not a penny more.

Out of the whole sordid, corrupt and undemocratic mess is the only answer.

 

 

[rufanuf]

22 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Which generation would that be then?

 

I am 73 and my generation are war babies and just after.

 

Then there are the baby boomer generation of the 1960s and 70s (my UK son was born in 1978) followed of course by the current or millenium generation of MeMes.

 

The generation before mine are in their 80s and 90s and quite a few still have their wits about them.

 

A choice of 4. Pick one.

What is your point? I'm fifty, my parents are in their eighties. I consider myself to be part of a generation that can remember what it meant to be a proud nation regardless of the prosperity of a nation. So can my parents, one being British, one being Spanish.  Most born after the 1980's probably don't have as strong a sense of national identity. This appears to have been a deliberate act on the part of successive governments. Get the population to lose its own sense of identity and you have them by the balls politically.

 

Knowone knows for sure what the UKs economic prospects would have been in the last 40 odd years had we stayed outside of the EU, but it likely would have been far better than it has been in it. Where as we ALL know the outcome of joining the EU. Its where we are today.

[billd766]

10 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

If I could find one I'd send you a Muttley laugh...

That's what the Frogs and Krauts want.

No, we know they want our money and would like to control the UK via the ECJ, but I don't believe that can happen. The Lib Dems only have eight seats at Westminster for a reason,

WTO rules, or back in Efta if we have to. Pay them up to 2020 when the current budget we agreed to ends, plus our contribution to pension funds. Not a penny more.

Out of the whole sordid, corrupt and undemocratic mess is the only answer.

 

 

 

A small gift for you.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uSTOHa4Im4

 

[Grouse]

http://www.lse.ac.uk/researchAndExpertise/units/growthCommission/documents/pdf/lseGCrep-Chap1.pdf

 

read up a bit!

 

"The UK has failed to create an enabling environment in a number of important areas for growth.
The result is a costly cocktail of political procrastination, institutional churn and poor decision-making.” 

 

Correct!

 

Where is our tech sector? Digital electronics? Semiconductors?

 

Lets blame the EU (or anybody actually)

Edited August 12, 2017 by Grouse