Midweek rant: The Right to Rant – it’s not bashing Thailand to criticize

[JaseTheBass]

11 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

Critiques usually follow the line of Western comparatives, which isn't logical.

Because Asian countries are so far advanced?

[VBF]

Actually, 30 years ago (and I first visited in 1985) there were far fewer actual tourists - most of the visitors (some of whom stayed) were mid and far east expats on break. I was one of them.

They (we?) were familiar with living in foreign countries and knew that it was both polite and politic to behave appropriately. Sort of the "when in Rome...." approach.

For example, the penalties in Saudi for transgressing laws and customs were, and still are i believe, rather severe!

 

I regret to say that many, though certainly not all, tourists don't have either that awareness, nor the wish to learn. In some cases, they don't even appear to have the ability to learn!

Edited August 17, 2017 by VBF

[zzaa09]

8 minutes ago, VBF said:

@Thian I agree with you but it's been the Thai way for so long that it's going to take a lot of effort to overcome it. Add to that an educational system that adheres to the old ways of doing things, plus the inbuilt Asian attitude to "face" and then consider that there may well be people who may benefit from keeping the majority of the populace in the dark.

That's the crux. It's just not in the societal nature to challenge or question the traditional and fabricated figures of authority, less the placed systematic infrastructures of association. It's ingrained, generation after generation. Yet, they're not completely left in the dark or vacant of recognition through everyday intelligence/reasoning. Because of their hesitance to speak an opinion towards this and that, certainly doesn't mean they might not have views and lucid conclusions about such things. Just cultural instinct that might come across of a contradictory nature, baffling those who are unaccustomed or disconnected with such differences. 

 

That being said, I have known and presently know a wide section of Thai folks of every class that seem to contradict the perceived stereotype of passive indifference - as they have formed a character of critical opinions, challenging and questioning as they should......in closed and community quarters. They certainly do exist, in numbers that might surprise. They're quite observant.

 

Personally. what has always puzzled me is the steadfast and insistent cultural comparatives [even in a superlative manner] and conscious proposals of Western people that insist that these savages would benefit to take up European ways......almost akin to a subliminal colonial civilising mission. Why can't they be like us and do/perceive things as we do. These factors apply not only to Thailand, but the world over of the non-European universe. Traditional cultures that are much more ancient and wise, in retrospect.

 

Just go with it.

Learn.

....and pass it on to the next life.

 

The old Farang saying: When in Rome......blah, blah.

[David Walden]

5 hours ago, JLCrab said:

One with a discerning mind might say --

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to say 'Screw the rest'.

Your post Mr Crab sounds very much like the teachings of "Alcoholics  Anonymous Association"  "AAA...wash your mouth out with soap.

[ELVIS123456]

19 minutes ago, JaseTheBass said:

Because Asian countries are so far advanced?

Because it is Asia and to criticise things/people here for not being the same as in the West where they came from is illogical  or stupid or bigoted - take your pick of whatever shovel you would prefer.

 

That is the reason some of us criticise TV whingers (even suggest they go home) who do so the wrong way. The right way is to complain about the issue with due deference to that it is the way it is here. The wrong way is to complain about the issue with personal insults and slights towards the people.  

 

Complaining about the rain is illogical and stupid.  Complaining that you cant find a decent umbrella here is fine, as long as you dont also insult the people or culture/beliefs. 

 

[zzaa09]

26 minutes ago, JaseTheBass said:

Because Asian countries are so far advanced?

Indeed.

Little do you know the true history of the world and historic diffusion.

Which shouldn't surprise.

[observer90210]

Foreigners ranting away from their homeland is not the point.

 

The point would be that those who rant abroad would rant exactly in the same fashion if they were back home.

 

Nothing to do with Thailand, UK, OZ or whereever....it's just a question of a specific type of inner state of mind.

 

As a matter of fact, I do rant here and there in my homeland and do so similar in Thailand. All depends also on the mood of the day. Somedays you tolerate more, somedays less.

 

The concluding question would be, when you are say invited at a dinner  at somebody's house, do you start to rant against everything or anything in your host's place, say against the hostesses's cooking,  or do you just remain polite and keep your mouth shut? There would be different answers to this question but you do get the point...I hope!

 

 

 

 

 

[VBF]

10 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

Because it is Asia and to criticise things/people here for not being the same as in the West where they came from is illogical  or stupid or bigoted - take your pick of whatever shovel you would prefer.

 

That is the reason some of us criticise TV whingers (even suggest they go home) who do so the wrong way. The right way is to complain about the issue with due deference to that it is the way it is here. The wrong way is to complain about the issue with personal insults and slights towards the people.  

 

Complaining about the rain is illogical and stupid.  Complaining that you cant find a decent umbrella here is fine, as long as you dont also insult the people or culture/beliefs. 

 

The thing about banging one's head against a brick wall, is it's so nice when you stop!

And to @observer90210 above - so do I mate! (Rant in my homeland, that is) Google search "Victor Meldrew"  here's a taster  for those who don't know the character.

[xylophone]

4 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

A change can be done only from inside by themselves but not by a smartass imposing a new world

And that just won't happen unfortunately, mainly because at the lower level the education system is so basic that it keeps the poor uneducated so they know no better, whereas at the top end the elite keep it just as it is so that they can benefit from corruption and by running things the way they want to.

 

Change can only occur if people see a better way to do things which will benefit them, for example, and whilst these 2 above-mentioned factions maintain the status quo, that will not happen on the larger scale. If everyone is told that the Thai way is the only way to do things, then that makes change even harder, and that's precisely what happens.

 

Take the Thai electrician who was wiring up shower water heaters which had the potential to be lethal to users because there was no earth – – and his response was that, "Thai electricity does not need an earth".

 

The engineers in my town, some 7 or 8 years ago decided that the police station was getting flooded far too often so they set about digging up large tracts of the road and installing a new drainage system, stating that this would be the last time the police station was flooded. It happened again so more alterations to the drains and more statements that this would be the last time the police station was flooded.

 

It happened again so a very large diesel driven water pump was installed on the road with the intention of taking the water from the nearby klong and pumping it away – – – and what happened, the water was taken from the klong and pumped into the road, which still flooded the police station and also flooded several roads down towards the sea front.

 

I'm sure you can see where I'm coming with this, inasmuch as if they had decided to elicit the help of an external company whose business this was, they almost certainly would have had better results; as it is the police station still floods.

 

The flooding brings into focus another point which they just cannot see the futility of..........the flooding brings down the mud into the drains which clog them up and also solidifies on the sides of the road. Sometime later the "suction trucks" come along and suck all of the mud and debris out of the drains and a little later on the water trucks come along with their very large hoses and flush the remaining mud on the side of the road down the drains.....!!!!! Not a lot of thought gone into this.

 

Change cannot come from inside if there is no mechanism to allow that to happen and especially where the great unwashed think that the Thai way is the best way to do everything and the elite keep the corruption in the system as it is because it suits them to do so.

 

Lee Kuan Yew changed Singapore from a corrupt country into one which is one of the least corrupt countries in the world and it came from the top. Only when it is driven from the top, corruption is outlawed and the education system is changed to embrace change and new ideas, will anything happen here.........so no time soon or in our lifetimes!

[David Walden]

3 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

There is nothing wrong with "Constructive Criticism", after-all, the Thais themselves seek to improve and better their country, some countries progress at a faster rate than others, we come from relatively privileged backgrounds, schools that teach, water that can be drunk straight from the tap, gas piped into our homes, electrical infrastructure that doesn't look like a dogs dinner, decent medical facilities, proper driver training, police forces free from corruption, a fair and just judicial system etc etc.

 

I'm not saying we all benefit from the above points, it depends where you lived prior to Thailand, but I'm sure you get my drift, I would hazard a guess that most TVF members are of a certain age and would have grown up with most of the points I make above, so it is not unnatural to compare what you see and experience now with what you saw & experienced before.

 

So as long as it's constructive, criticize away 

 

  

Dale Carniegie in 1936 wrote a book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" almost a bible to on how to treat people.  The 6th most successful book ever written.  His most important statement and advice in his book is "there is no such thing as Constructive Criticism, all criticism reduces the esteem of all individuals.  There are many alternatives you should look for.  I would be the first to see his point.

[VBF]

10 minutes ago, David Walden said:

Dale Carniegie in 1936 wrote a book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" almost a bible to on how to treat people.  The 6th most successful book ever written.  His most important statement and advice in his book is "there is no such thing as Constructive Criticism, all criticism reduces the esteem of all individuals.  There are many alternatives you should look for.  I would be the first to see his point.

Must (respectfully!) disagree David. Criticism takes many forms - constructive could be what i'm doing now and disagreeing with your POV. In no way am I demeaning you.

It could also be a senior engineer suggesting that a junior engineer's method of doing a job was dangerous or too time-consuming.  

IMO (and that's critical) "It's not always what you say but the way that you say it"

Edited August 17, 2017 by VBF

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, David Walden said:

there is no such thing as Constructive Criticism, all criticism reduces the esteem of all individuals.

Ok how about constructive feedback.......??

[JLCrab]

33 minutes ago, David Walden said:

Your post Mr Crab sounds very much like the teachings of "Alcoholics  Anonymous Association"  "AAA...wash your mouth out with soap.

The famous Rheinhod Niebuhr prayer was written in 1942 (if not earlier) and co-opted by Alcoholics Anonymous -- I just added my own spin to it. 

[xylophone]

23 minutes ago, xylophone said:

And that just won't happen unfortunately, mainly because at the lower level the education system is so basic that it keeps the poor uneducated so they know no better, whereas at the top end the elite keep it just as it is so that they can benefit from corruption and by running things the way they want to.

 

Change can only occur if people see a better way to do things which will benefit them, for example, and whilst these 2 above-mentioned factions maintain the status quo, that will not happen on the larger scale. If everyone is told that the Thai way is the only way to do things, then that makes change even harder, and that's precisely what happens.

 

Take the Thai electrician who was wiring up shower water heaters which had the potential to be lethal to users because there was no earth – – and his response was that, "Thai electricity does not need an earth".

 

The engineers in my town, some 7 or 8 years ago decided that the police station was getting flooded far too often so they set about digging up large tracts of the road and installing a new drainage system, stating that this would be the last time the police station was flooded. It happened again so more alterations to the drains and more statements that this would be the last time the police station was flooded.

 

It happened again so a very large diesel driven water pump was installed on the road with the intention of taking the water from the nearby klong and pumping it away – – – and what happened, the water was taken from the klong and pumped into the road, which still flooded the police station and also flooded several roads down towards the sea front.

 

I'm sure you can see where I'm coming with this, inasmuch as if they had decided to elicit the help of an external company whose business this was, they almost certainly would have had better results; as it is the police station still floods.

 

The flooding brings into focus another point which they just cannot see the futility of..........the flooding brings down the mud into the drains which clog them up and also solidifies on the sides of the road. Sometime later the "suction trucks" come along and suck all of the mud and debris out of the drains and a little later on the water trucks come along with their very large hoses and flush the remaining mud on the side of the road down the drains.....!!!!! Not a lot of thought gone into this.

 

Change cannot come from inside if there is no mechanism to allow that to happen and especially where the great unwashed think that the Thai way is the best way to do everything and the elite keep the corruption in the system as it is because it suits them to do so.

 

Lee Kuan Yew changed Singapore from a corrupt country into one which is one of the least corrupt countries in the world and it came from the top. Only when it is driven from the top, corruption is outlawed and the education system is changed to embrace change and new ideas, will anything happen here.........so no time soon or in our lifetimes!

And as if right on cue............and the main reason this country cannot change.

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11906047 

[David Walden]

29 minutes ago, VBF said:

Must (respectfully!) disagree David. Criticism takes many forms - constructive could be what i'm doing now and disagreeing with your POV. In no way am I demeaning you.

It could also be a senior engineer suggesting that a junior engineer's method of doing a job was dangerous or too time-consuming.  

IMO (and that's critical) "It's not always what you say but the way that you say it"

 

26 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

The famous Rheinhod Niebuhr prayer was written in 1942 (if not earlier) and co-opted by Alcoholics Anonymous -- I just added my own spin to it. 

Yes very wise man.   5555

[cyberfarang]

12 hours ago, JLCrab said:

I like living in Thailand. I have a great time in Thailand. I accomplish a lot due to minimal distraction of life in Thailand.

I do not care PASSIONATELY about Thailand. Makes life living here a bit easier.
 

You like living in Thailand because you get minimal distractions, but you do not passionately care about the country.

 

Sounds like;  you have come to Thailand as an escapee from whatever you want to get away from and then secluded yourself in your own inclusive environment. Because Thailand provides you with a comfort zone where others cannot be intrusive into your world, you are sort of living in your own no man`s land. You stay because it gives you a better quality lifestyle for your buck but you will never fully adapt into the Thai environment and never really fit in here.  These are the types that I guess do most of the complaining about the Thai people and Thailand.  Only those that are unhappy with their lot will constantly complain.

 

There are many of us who actually like living here and enjoy everything Thailand has to offer. I think myself lucky to be living in this wonderful country and avoid all the complaining westerners like the plague.

[David Walden]

53 minutes ago, VBF said:

Must (respectfully!) disagree David. Criticism takes many forms - constructive could be what i'm doing now and disagreeing with your POV. In no way am I demeaning you.

It could also be a senior engineer suggesting that a junior engineer's method of doing a job was dangerous or too time-consuming.  

IMO (and that's critical) "It's not always what you say but the way that you say it"

You can still buy the updated edition of this book even though Dale Carnegie has been dead for  long time, have a look at this perhaps it will help....

 

1. Don't criticize, condemn, or complain. Human nature does not like to admit fault. When people are criticized or humiliated, they rarely respond well and will often become defensive and resent their critic. To handle people well, we must never criticize, condemn or complain because it will never result in the behavior we desire.  Dale Carnegie

..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

Edited August 17, 2017 by David Walden

[JLCrab]

Thank you. I live in Thailand. I started learning Chinese over 40 years ago. I run an NGO based in the USA that involves the United Nations in Geneva and am involved in legal cases in EU and USA for disability rights and treaties.

I have no problem dealing with Thai people who don't speak English and that is my preference. I also spend a great deal of time and playing music and getting ready to do some recording.

... and I never said anything about a buck. I started working with the Chinese Agricultural Ministry in late 1980's. . And reading the assessment above is why I have limited interest in meeting up with other farangs.

I don't complain about Thailand or Thai people and I am not unhappy. And I fit in just fine

... and just to add that I moved to Thailand full-time after spending 3 long-term skilled-volunteer sessions at a large Thai Foundation under auspices of His Majesty (the late) King whereby I was introduced to a whole lot of Thailand that I will say few get to see unless they have been in a similar situation.

Edited August 17, 2017 by JLCrab

[David Walden]

23 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Thank you. I live in Thailand. I started learning Chinese over 40 years ago. I run an NGO based in the USA that involves the United Nations in Geneva and am involved in legal cases in EU and USA for disability rights and treaties.

I have no problem dealing with Thai people who don't speak English and that is my preference. I also spend a great deal of time and playing music and getting ready to do some recording.

... and I never said anything about a buck. I started working with the Chinese Agricultural Ministry in late 1980's. . And reading the assessment above is why I have limited interest in meeting up with other farangs.

I don't complain about Thailand or Thai people and I am not unhappy. And I fit in just fine

... and just to add that I moved to Thailand full-time after spending 3 long-term skilled-volunteer sessions at a large Thai Foundation under auspices of His Majesty (the late) King whereby I was introduced to a whole lot of Thailand that I will say few get to see unless they have been in a similar situation.

Good one Mr Crab...

[JLCrab]

OK. Thanks.

[wakeupplease]

9 hours ago, Happyman58 said:

Ok i got one Our village in ubonratchathani has not had water for  3 days Not one Thai has complained yet. Why That is how easy they accept

I thought I was the only one who did not get any water to wash in for 3 days, smelling a bit around there then if my experience is anything to go by.

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, Thian said:

That's why it's good when farang give their criticism, i hope the Thai will wake up and stop accepting that bs.

There's surely only one thing worse than your government telling you what you should be thinking and that's having a foreigner tell you what you should be thinking.

[amvet]

4 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

I support children whose parents died of HIV = I appreciate this. It's human's duty

I adopt and neuter soi dogs = I appreciate this if you either sell them to Vietnam or sterilize them

I do the laundry and take out the trash.  = not worth to mention.

 

So at the end you are idle and don't do anything to change anything in this country. = I don't appreciate this.

I pretty much take care of the house as my wife is an executive at a multinational company contributing to Thai infrastructure.  I used to teach underprivileged and mentally challenged kids till I hit 70 and the walk up 4 flights of stairs to my classroom with no ac got to be too much (heart attack).  I guess after working 60 years I can take a few years off hoping to extend my life a little and add my million baht a year from outside of Thailand to the Thai economy.  I am sorry you don't appreciate my contribution but my family, village and the tax man all do.  I could list all the things I have done for Thailand going back to the 1960's but I'm really not a braggart and even explaining myself as I have done in reply to your scurrilous attack , " you are idle and don't do anything" is more than I really feel comfortable sharing. 

 

Perhaps English is not your first language as neuter means to sterilize.  I like dogs and would never send them to Vietnam.

[wakeupplease]

12 hours ago, Thaiwrath said:

Even better are the ones that lived here, liked it, but for one reason or another, had to go back to their home country (finances, broken relationship etc....).

A lot of these, who declare they now hate Thailand with a vengance, seem to spend every free moment on here, saying how bad it is, and trying to convince themselves that they made the right decision, to return to the place they left originally, because they hated it !

As someone quoted on here the other day...............'you can take the farang out of Thailand, but you can't take Thailand out of the farang !'  

Slight misrepresentation there I think

 

Yes many have left due to the fact they ploughed money into the place in taxes in one form or another and where only considered to be a guest, so no longer had a place to call home as at any time they could be made to leave. A bit of a nomad in other words. Many cannot afford to make the move again, so have to put up with the Guest status and running around like headless chicken every 90 days.

 

Others that do leave return to Tv just to keep up with the stories of everyday living here and can breath a sigh of relief they are not have to live among some of the stupidity that is rampant here like no likes on facebook, no E-cigs and the killer roads and islands. A a bottle of half decent Australian wine for £5 in the UK how much here. Even Vodka is cheaper in the UK along with many other things except the Bar girls, that many fall in love with, but when its visa time to bring the girl home you get a big NO for a very good reason.

 

Ah that place where you are simple just a guest and have no rights Nomadland.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, David Walden said:

You can still buy the updated edition of this book even though Dale Carnegie has been dead for  long time, have a look at this perhaps it will help....

 

1. Don't criticize, condemn, or complain. Human nature does not like to admit fault. When people are criticized or humiliated, they rarely respond well and will often become defensive and resent their critic. To handle people well, we must never criticize, condemn or complain because it will never result in the behavior we desire.  Dale Carnegie

..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

 

As I recall (it's been a long time, and I may be mixing my readings), he's differentiating between criticizing the behavior or the actions and criticizing the person.  It's okay to point out that I did something wrong.  That's how we all learn.  But it's very different (and it's not constructive) to call me an idiot because I did something wrong.

 

Sadly, a lot of us spent our childhoods, then an entire career reporting to a string of dinosaurs calling us idiots whenever we made mistakes- as all humans do.  So that's the way we learned to deal with people.

 

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

You like living in Thailand because you get minimal distractions, but you do not passionately care about the country.

 

Sounds like;  you have come to Thailand as an escapee from whatever you want to get away from and then secluded yourself in your own inclusive environment. Because Thailand provides you with a comfort zone where others cannot be intrusive into your world, you are sort of living in your own no man`s land. You stay because it gives you a better quality lifestyle for your buck but you will never fully adapt into the Thai environment and never really fit in here.  These are the types that I guess do most of the complaining about the Thai people and Thailand.  Only those that are unhappy with their lot will constantly complain.

 

There are many of us who actually like living here and enjoy everything Thailand has to offer. I think myself lucky to be living in this wonderful country and avoid all the complaining westerners like the plague.

I guess I was a bit premature.

 

What's worse than having a farang tell you what you should be thinking is having one guess your Thailand happiness quotient based on the fact that you don't "passionately care" about this parochial, xenophobic backwater, then arbitrarily label you as someone who "will never fully adapt into the Thai environment and never really fit in here." and subsequently feel all superior because they consider this place as a "wonderful country."

 

I mean JL, y'all gotta admit, it don't get better than that huh? I bet the bugger wears black on Fridays too.

[VBF]

1 hour ago, David Walden said:

You can still buy the updated edition of this book even though Dale Carnegie has been dead for  long time, have a look at this perhaps it will help....

 

1. Don't criticize, condemn, or complain. Human nature does not like to admit fault. When people are criticized or humiliated, they rarely respond well and will often become defensive and resent their critic. To handle people well, we must never criticize, condemn or complain because it will never result in the behavior we desire.  Dale Carnegie

..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

I don't need to buy his book - DC was simply a writer and a salesman of "self-improvement" courses. (I did look him up) As such, his opinion, yours and mine are all of equal relevance. You happen to share his view, i do not - no problem. If I politely and positively  criticise someone who becomes defensive and resentful, that's their problem. I would also generally criticise in private where appropriate - obviously, this forum is a little different but I am still writing with a certain decorum, i hope.

 

Repeating what you posted previously  won't alter my view that we all have the right to our POV but mine is that constructive criticism, presented courteously can often be positive.

 

Or, if you will - "I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It" - attributed to Voltaire... I think.

Edited August 17, 2017 by VBF

[zzaa09]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

You like living in Thailand because you get minimal distractions, but you do not passionately care about the country.

 

Sounds like;  you have come to Thailand as an escapee from whatever you want to get away from and then secluded yourself in your own inclusive environment. Because Thailand provides you with a comfort zone where others cannot be intrusive into your world, you are sort of living in your own no man`s land. You stay because it gives you a better quality lifestyle for your buck but you will never fully adapt into the Thai environment and never really fit in here.  These are the types that I guess do most of the complaining about the Thai people and Thailand.  Only those that are unhappy with their lot will constantly complain.

 

There are many of us who actually like living here and enjoy everything Thailand has to offer. I think myself lucky to be living in this wonderful country and avoid all the complaining westerners like the plague.

Indeed.

A few of us have secured such a lifestyle where the instinctive urge to keep brethren Farang company and other associated cultural fare is surely not that valuable and non-existent.  

 

I, too, couldn't be bothered with the homogenous Farang.

Nothing that special.

[Nowisee]

14 hours ago, JLCrab said:

I like living in Thailand. I have a great time in Thailand. I accomplish a lot due to minimal distraction of life in Thailand.

I do not care PASSIONATELY about Thailand. Makes life living here a bit easier.
 

I agree.  I stay here for a few of my own good reasons, mostly easy to live here, but not committed and don't care passionately about it.

The mentality has made me dumber so I enjoy leaving the country on short trips around asia, it's my mental/intellectual version of CPR.

And ranting periodically about truly stupid things and injustice gets things off my chest.  

The "if you don't like it" blockheads don't bother me, they are most likely bitter washouts that have no choice.  

There is actually one or two on here, not the go home ones, that have put some things into perspective for me and gave me a different insight to some issues I was having.  They did it simply by writing an intelligent perspective.  Most appreciated. 
 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Nowisee

[amvet]

1 hour ago, David Walden said:

You can still buy the updated edition of this book even though Dale Carnegie has been dead for  long time, have a look at this perhaps it will help....

 

1. Don't criticize, condemn, or complain. Human nature does not like to admit fault. When people are criticized or humiliated, they rarely respond well and will often become defensive and resent their critic. To handle people well, we must never criticize, condemn or complain because it will never result in the behavior we desire.  Dale Carnegie

..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

My Thai wife just called me into the kitchen to point out some grease left in the pot after I washed it.  It was a just criticism.  But a criticism nevertheless.  What should she have done?